Lay out your explanation as to why you think that is only way it can be interpreted.
ECT MAD is defeated by the locked timeframe of Lk 23
- Thread starter Interplanner
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Interplanner
Well-known member
It is one passage that is quite self-explained. The natural children were not intended, just as in Gal 3. Some are natural children but because they also have FAITH IN CHRIST. Christ is the Seed that was promised. Paul is referring to those who had faith in Christ who was promised. This is why the next verses go into so much qualification: there's Israel and then there's Israel. Two different definitions.
In case we think he's going SUB-RACIAL, he clarifies who "us" is in v24. (There are whole spurious developments of sub-racism in D'ism which totally miss how he meant faith.).
So V30: the gentiles did not pursue righteousness, obtained it, by faith. Righteousness entitles one to the blessings of the promise, and has to be Christ's.
Chapter 9 tells of the ones who are the children of promise through Abe.
All of Abe's children were circumcised, but only one of his children were of the promise --- Isaac.
Romans 9:7 KJV
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Still talking about flesh children here.
And it continues through only one of Isaac's children.
Romans 9:10-11 KJV
(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Still talking about flesh children here.
Chapter 9 is about GOD's election of Israel, the nation that would be called by His name ---- The GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
There were many times that GOD's elect (Israel) would turn away from GOD.
And GOD would withdraw His hand for a time, but GOD always takes them back.
Romans 9:26-27 KJV
(26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Even the above passage is quoted from Hosea, and is about Israel.
Hosea's wife played the harlot, and it would be said of her children that they would be called the children of GOD.
And then they would not be called the children of GOD.
And then they would once again be called the children of GOD.
GOD always takes them back.
And GOD does so for His own name's sake, not because of Israel's actions (whether they do wrong or not).
Psalms 106:7-8 KJV
(7) Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.
(8) Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Ezekiel 36:21-22 KJV
(21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
(22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Deuteronomy 9:5-6 KJV
(5) Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
(6) Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
Daniel 9:18-19 KJV
(18) O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
(19) O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Psalms 79:8-10 KJV
(8) O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
(9) Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
(10) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
Jeremiah 14:7 KJV
(7) O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.
(20) We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee.
(21) Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.
1 Samuel 12:22 KJV
(22) For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
Daniel 9:18-19 KJV
(18) O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
(19) O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Psalms 79:8-10 KJV
(8) O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
(9) Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
(10) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
Jeremiah 14:7 KJV
(7) O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.
(20) We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee.
(21) Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.
1 Samuel 12:22 KJV
(22) For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes, we must comprehend all things in light of Gen 24:64 and Mt24A, as well as 2 Timothy 36:79, which shows us that sound bytes are tools of satan which counteract and ruminate against that which is holy and lead us into buying into permeative doctrines that are no sound doctrine but rather are combobulatory and inflammatory. Agreed?
So... clearly unable to quote it.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Chapter 9 tells of the ones who are the children of promise through Abe.
All of Abe's children were circumcised, but only one of his children were of the promise --- Isaac.
Romans 9:7 KJV
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(9) For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Still talking about flesh children here.
And it continues through only one of Isaac's children.
Romans 9:10-11 KJV(10) And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;(11) (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Still talking about flesh children here.
Chapter 9 is about GOD's election of Israel, the nation that would be called by His name ---- The GOD of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
There were many times that GOD's elect (Israel) would turn away from GOD.
And GOD would withdraw His hand for a time, but GOD always takes them back.
Romans 9:26-27 KJV(26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.(27) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Even the above passage is quoted from Hosea, and is about Israel.
Hosea's wife played the harlot, and it would be said of her children that they would be called the children of GOD.
And then they would not be called the children of GOD.
And then they would once again be called the children of GOD.
GOD always takes them back.
And GOD does so for His own name's sake, not because of Israel's actions (whether they do wrong or not).
Psalms 106:7-8 KJV(7) Our fathers understood not thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked him at the sea, even at the Red sea.(8) Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Ezekiel 36:21-22 KJV(21) But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.(22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
(32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
(36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Deuteronomy 9:5-6 KJV(5) Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.(6) Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.
Daniel 9:18-19 KJV
(18) O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
(19) O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Psalms 79:8-10 KJV
(8) O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
(9) Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
(10) Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
Jeremiah 14:7 KJV
(7) O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.
(20) We acknowledge, O LORD, our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against thee.
(21) Do not abhor us, for thy name's sake, do not disgrace the throne of thy glory: remember, break not thy covenant with us.
1 Samuel 12:22 KJV
(22) For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.
Tam, you missed entirely what Paul said. I mean his comments on it all.
So this D'ism problem is very clearly what you think the OT means by direct examination vs the 2500 uses of the OT by the apostles and Christ. You make the call.
Here's a tip: your first comment says 'this is talking about the children of the flesh here' but the second part of that verse says:
these are not the children of God:
For most people the next question is: what makes a child of God/the promise then? Don't go off in your own research questions. He's already guiding us.
It is very revealing that a passage that explains itself has to be 'snowed' by a page of OT quotes from all over as you see them without NT nuance.
btw, God always takes on/back those who have faith. There is no argument. the argument is that there is one Israel but two. Paul is a member of that which is by faith, as are the branches that stay on the one tree.
Nope.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Are you in the olive tree? How did you get in?
Letting Olive at the local diner serve you?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
While service is an important faction of the Christian life, we cannot forget Gen 24:64 and the lighted camel in light of Eph 2A and Jude 13, as we seek to follow Holford's advice, and shine forth as lights in the midst of this canopy of darkness, holding on to the NHNE event and not retreating henceforth to the red dirt of the old testament. These permeative doctrines bind us and yet free us simulatenouesly if we cling to Mt24A and let go of 2P2P ideas. Agreed?
"Sprichst du Deutsch?"-Barn, to that New Yorker Ed Sawyer spook, who claimed Mayberry was his home town
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I didn't realize Big Barn dabbled in tongues. Did All Souls Church have a Pentecostal sect within it, saint john?
Careful, Mayor-toucheth naaaawt the Laaaawd's Tucker-ite anointed, lest thee be hit with a blast from my Holy Ghost Machine gun!!!!! Am I getting through to you, fella? Don't you believe the bible?!!!!
Right Divider
Body part
He says that he wants us to examine the scripture, but for himself he just spouts opinions to your excellent examination of Romans 9.
:juggle:
Tam did not go into the following; so I don't know her position on it.
But I'll say this to you, IP...
Many are thrown by the passages in Romans 9-11 where Paul mentions the Gentiles.
As you obviously have been.
All Paul is doing in Romans 9 is not only what Tam did point out, but also...
Paul is pointing out that just as in the OT (thus one aspect of his quoting the OT there) just as in the OT, where God would delay His wrath for a time because He had another aspect of His plan and purpose as to the Earth and or Israel that He had wanted to address first, so too now in Paul's day, as well.
Only Paul's is his use once more, of a principle he often applies that many miss - his "same principle, different in application" rule of thumb.
He is asserting in Romans 9 not that God's delay of His wrath once more, does not mean He is not making good on His Word.
Rather, that once more, His delay is due to what He is doing instead, as part of what He had determined to do.
Here is where what Peter mentions in 2 Peter 3 about what Paul had written concerning God's delay in His long suffering once more, comes in...
"According to that grace given our beloved brother Paul," Paul is asserting that despite God's delay of His wrath in His longsuffering once more, He will accomplish His plan and purpose as to what were now two groups of saints - thus, Paul's "even us."
That's right - Prophecy (Israel/Moses) and Mystery (the Body/Paul).
Both that aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose to "the Jews" (Prophecy/Moses) AND that aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose as to "the Gentiles also" revealed through Paul (Mystery).
Paul then goes into that aspect concerning Israel, now on hold in God's delay of His wrath and what said short work on upon the Earth in righteousness is meant to accomplish on the Earth as to Israel through His wrath given His Covenant unto them, in its due time and season.
After which Paul then concludes Romans 9 with his "What shall we then..." as to God's temporary visit among "the Gentiles" which he later relates is..."until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
Which is actually the answer to the Twelve's question in Acts 1:6's "wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel" which was then under the bondage of a foreign, Gentile, political power...
In this, Rom. 11:26 is the issue of His return to Zion to deliver the physical seed of Jacob per that aspect of His wrath/deliverance "covenant unto them."
To purge out those in the flesh at the same time that He refines those in Isaac, through the refiner's fire of His wrath to come, Matt. 3.
In short, Romans 9 thru 11 is the issue of "wait a minute, I, Paul, have been going on for 8 chapters on all these great blessings you Gentiles have been availed...
...lest you Gentiles get a swelled head, and lest both Jew and Gentile conclude that God'd being among the Gentiles now...means He is through with Israel...let's get some things straight on this...no - God is not through with His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as to His covenant unto those three concerning a literal, physical, multiplied seed...in Isaac.
Rather, He is TEMPORARILY doing some UNProphesied things...among the Gentiles...directly...
That is Paul's point in writing those three chapters...
Gainsay it because you do not recieve a thing with all readiness of mind where it does not fit your ideas, Interplanner.
Fail to receive it with all readiness of mind that only then you might actually search the Scruptures daily whether those things are so.
But that is all you are doing...repeating your...recurrent pattern.
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andyc
New member
Couldn't agree more.
When you look at all of MAD theology, one major standout fact appears. They are anti faith.
Mad is a manufactured religious system that removes faith from the christian walk. It's so like the pharisees it's remarkable for people not to see it.
Everything in the old testament is concerning the natural, but everything in the new testament is the revealing of everything spiritual. This revealing of everything spiritual is the revealing of the mystery. In the natural, no one qualifies for the kingdom of God, and yet the mads (like the pharisees) believe the Jews do qualify for the kingdom of God in the natural. The kingdom itself is a spiritual kingdom not of this world, but the mads don't accept this, and neither did the pharisees.
The Holy Spirit is a person, and he is supposed to indwell believers to regenerate them into children of God. This experience is called being born again / born of the Spirit. Mad's don't understand this, and neither did the pharisees.
Mad's have no idea what it means to walk in the Spirit, they never ever talk about it. Why? Because they don't know what it means.
Their ruthless hatred of the pentecostal gifts of the Spirit is not based on their scriptural point of view of it, because many evangelical believers are not pentecostal, and they simply choose to leave it alone. But these mads just love to mock it every chance they get. Why?
It's obvious. If a person wants anything from God, regardless of what it is, they must come before him in FAITH. And the mads don't live by an active living faith. And so it is faith that they're really mocking, not the actual gifts of the Spirit. Their gospel is based on salvation by association. And so grace to them is the freedom to do as they please in the natural, without a sense of duty to live a life of submission. The pharisees lived for themselves by creating loopholes in the law which gave them excuses fulfill all their lusts without actually breaking the law. The mads remove multiple chapters and books of the bible in order to give themselves loopholes where they can no longer feel obligated to live a life in the Spirit where there is any accountability whatsoever. If they never believe God for anything, it's pointless actually doing anything, which is mad in a nutshell.
musterion
Well-known member
Again...speaking of enduring to the end to be saved...
1. Who successfully endured?
2. To the end of what did they endure?
3. When was "the end" of that which Christ said they had to endure?
4. What were they saved from?
5. How were they saved?
6. How do you know the answers to 1-5?
1. Who successfully endured?
2. To the end of what did they endure?
3. When was "the end" of that which Christ said they had to endure?
4. What were they saved from?
5. How were they saved?
6. How do you know the answers to 1-5?