Let's try something new: Do we agree on anything?

[Ps82]

Ever read Acts 1-7?

It was working, at least initially.



This is literally the plot of the Bible.

Israel was always meant to be a spokes-nation to the world. God had spokesmen (prophets), and tried to scale up. Acts shows that it didn't work.

So God went to plan B, a mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world, using one person to go to all nations.



New way?

Try "mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world."



This is the plot twist of the Bible.



"You must be circumcised" and "you don't have to circumcise" are the same message?



Nowhere in the gospels is Christ's death burial and resurrection openly preached. And prior to Paul's conversion, Christ's crucifixion is preached as a condemnation against the Jews, nh ot as the core tenet of salvation. (cf, Acts 1-7).

But that's the core claim of Paul's message and subsequently Christianity as a whole, that Christ was raised to bring life to the dead, not to the remission of sins (which is something only found in the Gospels, Acts 2, in Acts 10:43 in the context of Peter and Cornelius, and the epistle to the Hebrews).

My thoughts:
New WAY?
I believe Genesis 2 reveals that The Christ was always to be The Way! The promised / The prophesied ONE. There was no NEW WAY ... just a fulfillment of --- The promised WAY. Christ said: I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.

I think: Circumcision was an OT symbolic ritual pointing to the fact regarding the work of the Christ. God, the Christ, would come as a male human being but also as an Emmanuel. He would be the one to give a second birth to humanity. His outer mortal humanity would be stripped from him and placed on a heavenly altar and he would be given a new body which would produce children unto God. HIS new body would have power to walk through walls, appear and disappear, exist within creation as well as in heavenly places, give mortality to those conceived by him with his spirit in us.

The Christ, Emmanuel, came and fulfilled his mission which had been represented by the act of circumcision. There was no more need for the symbolic act for he had come and fulfilled it as the God/Christ. No need for Gentiles to perform the ritual ... which had been a sign given to Abraham.

Yet, I think humanity much have found value in the medical procedure and have kept using it for health reasons ... Right? I've never studied that aspect.

 

[Ps82]

Thank you for the low hanging fruit.

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcised was to Peter

You can even look up the Greek. It is the gospel OF the uncircumcised. It shows possessions, not direction. It is our gospel.

GAL 2:7 Paul had been sent by the Lord to the Gentiles and to the poor. He had received from God the good news that circumcision was no longer needed to be spread to the Gentiles. Why?
My Thoughts: The symbolism of the ritual had been fulfilled by Christ for the OT followers including the Jews and children of Abraham.

The Gentiles did not need to know the symbolic fore-shadow prophesy of the promised future Christ. The Christ had come. They would have a new promise. Christ IN US ... and we are to be born again!

 

[Ps82]

We don't know how the original plan might have worked. My thought is that the original plan involved much larger numbers of Jews believing and being sent out, but because Paul and company were persecuting instead of joining the movement, God determined a new way (one He had considered before, but wasn't needed until the Jews rejected their messiah and His offer of forgiveness, as Peter offered) of taking the message to the Gentiles, but not a new message. Remember that the message was verbalized somewhat by the angels at Christ's birth.
Luke 2:14 KJV — Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

That is close to saying nothing can exist outside of God. Those who would choose to live outside of God will suffer the second death.

Chrysostom:
Perhaps I understand how you came to your idea ... but I think there is NO literal 'outside of God's essence/substance/spirit'. He is omni-present. I believe there can only be a sort of outside of him in this fashion:

1.) Lost souls can be out of his presence.
2.) Outside of a domain/kingdom established where the saints will live with our risen Lord and The LORD Father.
3.) The presence of God named The LORD will dwell with men in a relationship. We will see HIM and live with HIM and His risen Son in a relationship. There will be the lost who are separated from him without this relationship. his kingdom.

I also believe that God can give of his essence-in measures. (IOW in lesser portions)
Examples of my thinking:
1.) God IS LIFE ... humanity was given a measure of that life and even that was shorted when mortality was established due to the sin of Adam and Woman.
2.) In an opposite manner all things were made available to the Christ. All things of the Spirit were given to HIM from the Father LORD God without measure ... even the right to judge and to forgive sins. John 17:5...
3.) Mankind will never be equal with the infinite God as was Jesus ... even Christ wished that we could be one with the Father as was HE ...
4.) Even The Lake of Fire will be within God's Spiritual essence as A PLACE designed for the angels. The rebellious angels will be separated from HIS presence. Doesn't scripture say that we saints will judge the angels???? Right. I Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... I assume we will determine if any angels can be forgiven and not go to THAT PLACE within God. Oh well, a different topic.
5.) There is no place of NOTHING inside of God and NO PLACE OUTSIDE OF GOD.

 

[Derf]

Chrysostom:
Perhaps I understand how you came to your idea ... but I think there is NO literal 'outside of God's essence/substance/spirit'. He is omni-present. I believe there can only be a sort of outside of him in this fashion:

1.) Lost souls can be out of his presence.
2.) Outside of a domain/kingdom established where the saints will live with our risen Lord and The LORD Father.
3.) The presence of God named The LORD will dwell with men in a relationship. We will see HIM and live with HIM and His risen Son in a relationship. There will be the lost who are separated from him without this relationship. his kingdom.

I also believe that God can give of his essence-in measures. (IOW in lesser portions)
Examples of my thinking:
1.) God IS LIFE ... humanity was given a measure of that life and even that was shorted when mortality was established due to the sin of Adam and Woman.
2.) In an opposite manner all things were made available to the Christ. All things of the Spirit were given to HIM from the Father LORD God without measure ... even the right to judge and to forgive sins. John 17:5...
3.) Mankind will never be equal with the infinite God as was Jesus ... even Christ wished that we could be one with the Father as was HE ...
4.) Even The Lake of Fire will be within God's Spiritual essence as A PLACE designed for the angels. The rebellious angels will be separated from HIS presence. Doesn't scripture say that we saints will judge the angels???? Right. I Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... I assume we will determine if any angels can be forgiven and not go to THAT PLACE within God. Oh well, a different topic.
5.) There is no place of NOTHING inside of God and NO PLACE OUTSIDE OF GOD.

You may be over thinking it. If God is everywhere, which doesn't really have direct scriptural support, then He wouldn't need to go down to observe or act, concepts that are written in scripture, like related to Sodom's destruction and the confusion of languages at Babel. The whole point of omnipresence where it is suggested in scripture seems to speak of God's presence for the believer in time of trouble, not just an overarching existence.

 

[Ps82]

You may be over thinking it. If God is everywhere, which doesn't really have direct scriptural support, then He wouldn't need to go down to observe or act, concepts that are written in scripture, like related to Sodom's destruction and the confusion of languages at Babel. The whole point of omnipresence where it is suggested in scripture seems to speak of God's presence for the believer in time of trouble, not just an overarching existence.

All good points.
Except ... in the case of Sodom and G. and the tower of Babel. God did already know. But God is mercy (merciful and loving) and love. He often sent a prophets among men to warn the people as with the children of Noah and the children of Abraham and Israel when they were straying. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it says the LORD God came himself and went down into the streets that night and preached truth of sin and the need of repentance to the people; yet, he found not even 10 willing to repent. IOW, God came as Emmanuel among men honored his gift of free will to mankind and offered a second chance to change.

Yes, I believe God the Spirit is everywhere ... but it is his mercy that causes him to come among men or send prophets.

Another example was when God showed Jonah he was everywhere. Jonah did not think of God as an omni-present. He thought of him as a finite LORD God. He thought he could escape God's finite presence ... so, he fled in the opposite direction of Nineveh in order to hide from God. He wasn't able to do so and wound up going to Nineveh anyway as God requested. The same with Adam and woman. They thought they could hide from the the presence of The Word of God who came talking and walking in the Garden, but they could not hide from his presence for God is first a Spirit and sees all for he is in all and all is in Him. Nothing surprised God ... but he is merciful and created away to come unto mankind like a Father to rescue, teach, and offer mercy.

I happen to think this is a mystery of how the Spirit was able to come among men as Emmanuel to show his mercy.

 

[Nick M]

Why?

Why not just go with what the Bible says? He tells us. He tells us the purpose of the law. He tells us Israel is to keep it anyway, including the ceremonial part. We are saved by grace to drive Israel to jealousy. We are saved apart from the law.

 

[Derf]

All good points.
Except ... in the case of Sodom and G. and the tower of Babel. God did already know. But God is mercy (merciful and loving) and love. He often sent a prophets among men to warn the people as with the children of Noah and the children of Abraham and Israel when they were straying. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it says the LORD God came himself and went down into the streets that night and preached truth of sin and the need of repentance to the people;

I don't think it says that anywhere. Please cite if you can find it. Not that I think you are wrong that He was looking for repentance, and if ten (probably only 6, since Lot and family counted for 4) had repented, God would have stayed the calamity, according to His promise to Abraham.

yet, he found not even 10 willing to repent. IOW, God came as Emmanuel among men honored his gift of free will to mankind and offered a second chance to change.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you referring to Jesus coming in the flesh? If so, how does that apply to Sodom?

Yes, I believe God the Spirit is everywhere

But what does "God is everywhere" mean? Is God in my toilet? Why do you care if God is in my toilet? What benefit does God being in my toilet provide you? Rather, the promises about God's presence seem to point to the fact that He is watching over us, that we can come to Him and ask for help at anytime, and if we are in danger, or just in need of something, He knows what we need before we even ask. His presence, then, is really an assurance of Him seeing what we need, not just happening to be everywhere. So if God sees everywhere, then He can know things about us wherever we are.

... but it is his mercy that causes him to come among men or send prophets.

Ok, but how is this relevant?

Another example was when God showed Jonah he was everywhere. Jonah did not think of God as an omni-present. He thought of him as a finite LORD God. He thought he could escape God's finite presence ... so, he fled in the opposite direction of Nineveh in order to hide from God.

Whether God proved He was "everywhere" or just proved that He saw what Jonah was doing and responded (by sending a storm and then a fish), see above. Jonah, no doubt, learned something about God.

He wasn't able to do so and wound up going to Nineveh anyway as God requested. The same with Adam and woman. They thought they could hide from the the presence of The Word of God who came talking and walking in the Garden, but they could not hide from his presence for God is first a Spirit and sees all for he is in all and all is in Him.

Does God have to be in my toilet to "see all"? I'm using the ridiculous to show that it isn't a necessary thing that God is somehow "everywhere", if He can see whatever trouble we are in, or whatever sin we commit, and respond accordingly.

Nothing surprised God ... but he is merciful and created away to come unto mankind like a Father to rescue, teach, and offer mercy.

I happen to think this is a mystery of how the Spirit was able to come among men as Emmanuel to show his mercy.

"Emmanuel" did not come as the Spirit.
He came among men as a physical human.

But was it His mercy that He was showing to Sodom? or His justice? Was it His mercy He was showing to the tower builders? or His wisdom? Maybe both, if He was offering the opportunity to repent. I do think that was part of the story when the two angels showed up. Perhaps it was part of the reason He went down, but there is no mercy expressed in the narrative. He went down to look at what they were doing, then He went down (further?) to confuse their language. We can speculate that part of His going down was to find out if they would repent so that He could be merciful to them--but it isn't stated.

 

[chrysostom]

But what does "God is everywhere" mean?

Who is saying that?
Your toilet comment is not necessary nor appreciated.
There is no 'outside' of God.
Anything or anyone not in harmony with God will eventually be eliminated.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Your toilet comment is not necessary nor appreciated.

Might I suggest that the comment is unpleasant because it exposed a flaw in your beliefs.

Instead of the knee-jerk reaction, you should humble yourself and ask God for wisdom.

Maybe your belief isn't a good belief to begin with.

 

[Right Divider]

There is no 'outside' of God.

Is sin not outside of God?

 

[chrysostom]

Is sin not outside of God?

Sin is an attribute and it cannot exist by itself.

 

[Right Divider]

Sin is an attribute and it cannot exist by itself.

Sin is not an attribute.
Sin is a thought that generally leads to an action.

 

[Derf]

Who is saying that?
Your toilet comment is not necessary nor appreciated.

Some appreciate it, not because it is true (surely you would appreciate it if it were truth), but because it makes you question your belief (which I hope you will some day appreciate, if you don't already).

There is no 'outside' of God.

I don't know what that means, except possibly pantheism.. If the earth is God's footstool, is God God's own footstool?

Further, if Jesus is God, and we are saved because we are "in Christ", then everybody and everything must also be saved.

Anything or anyone not in harmony with God will eventually be eliminated.

How could God not be in harmony with anyone or anything that is in Him?

 

[JudgeRightly]

pantheism

*panentheism

There's a difference.

 

[Derf]

*panentheism

There's a difference.

I get them confused sometimes, but I thought panentheism says that God is in everything. What @Ps82 and @chrysostom are saying is the opposite--that everything is in God. If everything is in God, that sounds more like everything is God, which I thought was closer to pantheism.

 

[Derf]

I get them confused sometimes, but I thought panentheism says that God is in everything. What @Ps82 and @chrysostom are saying is the opposite--that everything is in God. If everything is in God, that sounds more like everything is God, which I thought was closer to pantheism.

Maybe @Ps82 said both that God is in all and all is in God.

 

[Ps82]

Since at least two people have discussed the practice/ritual of circumcision I've had it on my mind. Since I think it had the purpose of being a foreshadow revealing something about the work of the Christ then this is just a suggestion/a thought of mine at this time.

God created Mankind male female and told them to reproduce after their own kind; so, that was their mission in life.
Let's say that the fore-skin represents our mortal human flesh. When it is shed it could represent how humanity must shed this mortal body for the new birth to happen.

When Adam and Woman sinned things became a mess, but God mentioned sex and reproduction again. For Woman's part in the original sin he would multiply her conception and her sorrow. In sorrow she would bring for children. She would desire her husband an he shall rule over her.

Now, it things are accomplished in God's intended way ... then a woman would desire a husband in order to have children. She wouldn't have children without that male ... so he is the ruler of whether children are born.

Might OT circumcision have represented how Christ had to come into the world and shed his mortal flesh of Adam's humanity so he could then share the Holy Spirit with believers. This representing being "BORN AGAIN" to a new life in his kingdom?

Lord Jesus did just that and he ascended to heaven and presented that stricken flesh before God as the perfect sacrifice. He became the second Adam in order to bring children unto God.

After Jesus finished his work and became the perfect Second Adam to bring children to the kingdom - perhaps there no longer was any need for the prophetic ritual to continue for it had been fulfilled. People just needed to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

The Jews argued about whether it needed to be spread to the Gentiles ... after all it had been a big part of their religion for so long.

Just some rambling but thinking I see some symbolic potential for the OT practice.
I also see health benefits for the NT Jewish generation and for the Gentiles still today.

 

[Ps82]

I don't think it says that anywhere. Please cite if you can find it. Not that I think you are wrong that He was looking for repentance, and if ten (probably only 6, since Lot and family counted for 4) had repented, God would have stayed the calamity, according to His promise to Abraham.

I, Ps82, had said: In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it says the LORD God came himself and went down into the streets that night and preached truth of sin and the need of repentance to the people;


Even if the story didn't write it out explicitly most people should ultimately be able to SEE THE TRUTH from using the contextual clues. Watch this is what I see:

Three Lords came to visit Abram and his wife. One was singled our as The LORD who stayed with Abram and spoke with him. Their stated mission was this - The three of them were to go into Sodom and stay in the streets all night while looking around to see the sins of the people. I would suspect there would be some calling out their sins to see who would repent. Ten was to be what was needed to save the city and the people.

Yet, The LORD stayed behind with Abram, while he told the other two to go ahead into Sodom on their mission. When the two arrived at the gate Lot was there and he immediately knew they were Lords and bowed down to the ground before them just as Abram had done previously to all three. He implored them to go home with him ... and they did. Oh my! Did they sin by disobeying The LORD God??? (That is another story to be discussed some other time.) Yet the truth is they did not go into the streets and observed the sins and see who would repent through the night! So who did???

Reading on ... you will find The LORD did! He was 'that Fellow' who brought to Lot's door later that night by a street mob. He had come into Sodom after he finished talking with Abram. He saw the people's sins and called them out. 'This fellow' was The LORD and he did carry out the Mission that night. The people did not repent and instead became angry with him. and took hold of him and treated him roughly. In fact, the mob pressed him against Lot's door as they yelled for Lot to bring out the other two inside!!! The mob wanted to do something bad to all three. Now, how did the mob know 'this fellow' was somehow with the other two at Lot's house??? (Now, that is a story to be discussed some other time.)

These three Lords were on a mission and it was completed by the third LORD ... God's permissive will had allowed two Lord to go with Lot while the third LORD finished the mission.

BTW, The LORD did not physically blind the mob ... he performed the miracle Jesus did in the NT ... when a mob wanted to kill Jesus he was able to just walk out of their midst and not be seen. They wondered where he had gone. He was unharmed. They had been spiritually blinded so that they could not see Jesus while being able to see everything else around them.

Well, that night in Sodom... The LORD did the same thing to this mob. Walked away from their midst without being harmed. How do I know? Because even though they could not see 'that fellow' any longer they were able to still walk away from Lot's door and, I assume. go home. They could still see physically!

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you referring to Jesus coming in the flesh? If so, how does that apply to Sodom?

I had said: yet, he found not even 10 willing to repent. IOW, God came as Emmanuel among men honored his gift of free will to mankind and offered a second chance to change.

I believe in the Trinity, who are the ONE God ... spoken of as The God Head. I believe the three came representing the work of the three to save humanity. One singled out as The LORD and the other two as Lords. I believe God can do things human's can't. We have one image and can only produce it singularly. God can do greater things. He is the ONE God who created one image for his use among men. I believe God manifest his ONE image unto Abram ... but just in triplicate as the presences of three Lords. God the Spirit came into view within creation (an Emmanuel) on a mission. The mission was to judge the sins of the people, but to have mercy and offer the salvation of a whole city if even just a few would repent. Not enough people did ... so our one LORD God in triplicate carried out the consequences.

Our God the Spirit is ONE with ONE created image to represent his oneness among men ... BUT that one image does not keep him from manifesting it in multiples. For example: The Supernatural presence of the OT Father and as the fleshly Son in the NT as our Savior Lord Jesus.
In the Story of Sodom ... God was representing himself as one God by using his one image in triplicate ... which reveals a mystery of how God would bring salvation to those who repent.

But what does "God is everywhere" mean? Is God in my toilet? Why do you care if God is in my toilet? What benefit does God being in my toilet provide you? Rather, the promises about God's presence seem to point to the fact that He is watching over us, that we can come to Him and ask for help at anytime, and if we are in danger, or just in need of something, He knows what we need before we even ask. His presence, then, is really an assurance of Him seeing what we need, not just happening to be everywhere. So if God sees everywhere, then He can know things about us wherever we are.

Ok, but how is this relevant?

Whether God proved He was "everywhere" or just proved that He saw what Jonah was doing and responded (by sending a storm and then a fish), see above. Jonah, no doubt, learned something about God.

Does God have to be in my toilet to "see all"? I'm using the ridiculous to show that it isn't a necessary thing that God is somehow "everywhere", if He can see whatever trouble we are in, or whatever sin we commit, and respond accordingly.

"Emmanuel" did not come as the Spirit.
He came among men as a physical human.

But was it His mercy that He was showing to Sodom? or His justice? Was it His mercy He was showing to the tower builders? or His wisdom? Maybe both, if He was offering the opportunity to repent. I do think that was part of the story when the two angels showed up. Perhaps it was part of the reason He went down, but there is no mercy expressed in the narrative. He went down to look at what they were doing, then He went down (further?) to confuse their language. We can speculate that part of His going down was to find out if they would repent so that He could be merciful to them--but it isn't stated.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I get them confused sometimes, but I thought panentheism says that God is in everything. What @Ps82 and @chrysostom are saying is the opposite--that everything is in God.

Panentheism is both God in the universe and the universe in God.

If everything is in God, that sounds more like everything is God, which I thought was closer to pantheism.

"-En-" here is the key word part, meaning in.

Pantheism is "everything is God."

Panentheism is "God is in everything/everything is in God."

 

[Ps82]

TOL posters ... How do some of you explain the manifestation of a super-natural male presence know by men like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be God Almighty? He ultimately was identified to the children of Israel/Jacob by Moses to be The LORD The LORD God.

Did you know that The LORD God was seen by 74 men at one time. Exodus 24:9-11