"Let Us Make Man In Our Image"

[jamie]

Then, the mystery would be the earth as a thinking being. Your translating ability adds nothing

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

 

[Ktoyou]

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

You are reading it as a cliche. Maybe you should say what you mean in your own words?

 

[jamie]

You are reading it as a cliche. Maybe you should say what you mean in your own words?

Do you not understand Paul's words?

 

[Ktoyou]

Do you not understand Paul's words?

You need to tell me what you think it means, not play games.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry and Right Divider and Greetings JudgeRightly,

Of course the One referred to is spoken of here:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

I am not willing to get involved in the rest of this Post, but I would be interested in your explanation of why the child to be born would be called “The everlasting Father”.

You can believe what you want, but you're not listening to scripture. God never calls Himself "father of all creation". You're saying something that the scripture does not.
Is it a HUMAN term to describe the relationship in the Godhead, yes... I said that. You can say that, God did not reveal it that way.

Jesus goes close to saying that God is the father of all creation when Jesus says that God the Father is His Father, and that God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth. This portion of Scripture is when Jesus is alluding to and interpreting the creation Psalm, Psalm 8 and applying the Son of Man aspect to himself, who was made a little lower than the angels.
Matthew 11:25 (KJV): At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

The Godhead is made up of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It's not too hard to understand.

Yes it is too hard for me to understand or accept, especially when Scripture does not teach this. It was formulated in the 3rd and 4th Centuries. Do you believe that Moses would accept the Athanasian Creed?

The Word was made flesh. Once again, clearly and simply explained in scripture.

Yes, I believe the Word was made flesh. The way this was achieved is described in Matthew 1 and Luke 1.

El = God (singular)
Elohim = God (plurality; in Gen 1:1 and when talking about God in general, it means 3)

I agree that Elohim can be plural, but you will find it difficult to prove that it always means 3.

"Let Us make man in Our image" is not just an example of the "royal we," it's the ORIGIN of the "royal we."

I thought that the “royal we” is when a king claims that he has his own authority backed up by God, the Divine rights of a King. God uses the emphatic “I” (singular) Isaiah 43:11; 43:25.

Let us look at this verse:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

There the LORD made man and here is what He said about that:

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

It was "us" who made man in the image of God.
Who is the "us"?

God and the angels. Man was made in the image of God and the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[iamaberean]

Here we see a plurality in the Godhead:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image" (Gen1:26,27).​

This scripture is indeed one that needs explanation, but none is given. It does say God created man in 'his own' image.
So the first time the translator used plural, which can be correct if there is no qualifier, and in the second singular is used because there is a qualifier. Without a qualifier the one doing the interpretation decides by the rest of the statement.

I have heard a theologian, who was married to a Jewish woman, explain the Godhead to him. There are many gods (spirits), but only one Jehovah God. So when one sees LORD God, that is the Jewish God and He is one.
In the old testament when Jehovah, the qualifier, is mentioned the Jews changed that to "LORD".

Let us look at another contradiction that has been wrong. In Gen 1 it says:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There are really two things here: God can appear to be plural or singular, confusion of the Godhead.
Also notice God created (made from nothing) man.

Now in Gen 2 we see this:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
'LORD' God (qualified as singular by the use of 'LORD'), the Jewish God, formed (made from something, not created) man. It goes on to say that LORD God put him in a garden, unlike the man in Gen 1 who was told to go and replenish the earth.

What I am saying here is there is still some confusion proven by the fact that most people say Gen 2 is just another version of Gen 1 just as you say God is three simply because that is the way someone translated one scripture because it didn't have a qualifier.


The truth is:
LORD God of the Jews and Christians is one God.
Adam was formed by LORD God and other humans were created, not formed.

 

[Right Divider]

Jesus goes close to saying that God is the father of all creation when Jesus says that God the Father is His Father, and that God the Father is Lord of heaven and earth. This portion of Scripture is when Jesus is alluding to and interpreting the creation Psalm, Psalm 8 and applying the Son of Man aspect to himself, who was made a little lower than the angels.
Matthew 11:25 (KJV): At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Yes it is too hard for me to understand or accept, especially when Scripture does not teach this. It was formulated in the 3rd and 4th Centuries. Do you believe that Moses would accept the Athanasian Creed?

Moses didn't know what is NOW revealed by God in scripture. Apparently, neither do you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

God and the angels. Man was made in the image of God and the angels.

The "us" in this verse is the same "us" who created man:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

And we can see that it was none other than the LORD God who created man:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

Since there is no mention of any angel creating man then it is impossible that the word "us" at Genesis 1:26 is referring to the LORD God and angels.

I am not willing to get involved in the rest of this Post, but I would be interested in your explanation of why the child to be born would be called “The everlasting Father”.

I am going to start a thread on that very subject soon.

Thanks!

 

[daqq]

This scripture is indeed one that needs explanation, but none is given. It does say God created man in 'his own' image.
So the first time the translator used plural, which can be correct if there is no qualifier, and in the second singular is used because there is a qualifier. Without a qualifier the one doing the interpretation decides by the rest of the statement.

I have heard a theologian, who was married to a Jewish woman, explain the Godhead to him. There are many gods (spirits), but only one Jehovah God. So when one sees LORD God, that is the Jewish God and He is one.
In the old testament when Jehovah, the qualifier, is mentioned the Jews changed that to "LORD".

Let us look at another contradiction that has been wrong. In Gen 1 it says:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
There are really two things here: God can appear to be plural or singular, confusion of the Godhead.
Also notice God created (made from nothing) man.

Now in Gen 2 we see this:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
'LORD' God (qualified as singular by the use of 'LORD'), the Jewish God, formed (made from something, not created) man. It goes on to say that LORD God put him in a garden, unlike the man in Gen 1 who was told to go and replenish the earth.

What I am saying here is there is still some confusion proven by the fact that most people say Gen 2 is just another version of Gen 1 just as you say God is three simply because that is the way someone translated one scripture because it didn't have a qualifier.


The truth is:
LORD God of the Jews and Christians is one God.
Adam was formed by LORD God and other humans were created, not formed.

Check the LXX-Septuagint , (Old Greek), and perhaps you may see what has been inserted in an attempt to reinforce a strictly monotheistic viewpoint, (I also am a monotheist but the Father did not need anyone's "help" by changing His Word). In verse eight of the second chapter of Genesis, where you will first read "κυριος ο θεος", even there it should be only "ο θεος" as shown in the compilation manuscript which Brenton used, (http://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/2.htm). The Tetragrammaton replacement word, (κυριος), should probably not appear until Gen 2:15, (imo).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Right Divider, Jerry and JudgeRightly,

Moses didn't know what is NOW revealed by God in scripture. Apparently, neither do you.

I appreciate your perspective, but feel quite content and even confident of the view that I have presented in this thread, also my thread on John10:30, and also Jerry’s thread “The meaning of the term The Son of God”. In these I have explained my understanding of the word “Elohim”. The other main word for God in the OT is the Name Yahweh and I have explained briefly my understanding in the thread “The meaning of the term Son of God” posts 66,70 and 71. I suggest that Trinitarians unconsciously ignore what is taught in the OT, and try to impose their Trinitarian perspective into a context that does not fit.

Since there is no mention of any angel creating man then it is impossible that the word "us" at Genesis 1:26 is referring to the LORD God and angels.

I believe that Jesus indicates how the word Elohim was applied to God’s representatives, the Judges in Israel, and this helps to understand how the Angels also represent God and are called Elohim. I considered this in the John 10:30 thread, posts 1,6,7,20 and 59. Psalm 8:5 also confirms this usage of the word Elohim, where, speaking of the creation of man, the word Elohim is used for the Angels. They can be called Elohim because they represent God and act on His behalf.

El = God (singular)
Elohim = God (plurality; in Gen 1:1 and when talking about God in general, it means 3)

I would like to briefly test the concept that the word Elohim in some contexts is speaking of the Angels as God’s representatives. I asked for comment on the meaning of Elohim in Genesis 3:5, but no one offered an explanation.
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV): 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (Elohim), knowing good and evil.
I do not believe the serpent is saying that they would be like the Trinity, but that they would be like the Angels, who had been in their company and fellowship in Eden. God the Father was in Heaven. There is no hint of a pre-existent Jesus or God the Son in Eden.

When Yahweh manifested Himself to Abraham in Genesis 17, at the conclusion it is said that “God” (Elohim) went up from him. Now this is only one person, so it is not three persons, and God the Father was in heaven. Nor was it Jesus or the pre-existent God the Son. Rather it was an Angel who represented God and spoke on His behalf. It was an Angel, who came from heaven, who went up from Abraham.
Genesis 17:1-4,22 (KJV): 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfecta. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of manyb nations.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.
Only one being went up from Abraham, the Angel who represented God, the Father, Yahweh.

The "us" in this verse is the same "us" who created man:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).​

And we can see that it was none other than the LORD God who created man:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen.2:7).​

Since there is no mention of any angel creating man then it is impossible that the word "us" at Genesis 1:26 is referring to the LORD God and angels.

The title or Name and title “LORD God” can represent God the Father, or God the Father and the Angels, and in some instances “LORD” can indicate an Angel who is representing God the Father. In some respects this is similar to the title “Elohim”. There are some instances where the Name-bearing Angel “LORD” is distinguished from “LORD” Himself.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamie]

God the Father was in Heaven.

Where is heaven?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The title or Name and title “LORD God” can represent God the Father, or God the Father and the Angels, and in some instances “LORD” can indicate an Angel who is representing God the Father. In some respects this is similar to the title “Elohim”. There are some instances where the Name-bearing Angel “LORD” is distinguished from “LORD” Himself.

Please quote a verse where an angel is designated as “Elohim.”

Thanks!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

Please quote a verse where an angel is designated as “Elohim.”

Start with Psalm 8:5(KJV)

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Where is heaven?

2 Kings 6:17 KJV
17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Greetings again Jerry,Start with Psalm 8:5(KJV)

The Scriptures will be searched in vain for any verse which says that man is created in the image of angels, as you maintain. And the Scriptures will be searched in vain for any verse which says that both God and the angels created man.

I am still waiting on your evidence that supports your conclusion and nothing said at Psalms 8:5 even hints that your conclusions are correct.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Jerry,

The Scriptures will be searched in vain for any verse which says that man is created in the image of angels, as you maintain. And the Scriptures will be searched in vain for any verse which says that both God and the angels created man.
I am still waiting on your evidence that supports your conclusion and nothing said at Psalms 8:5 even hints that your conclusions are correct.

I may not press altogether my view of Psalm 8:5 again, but I was answering your request:

Please quote a verse where an angel is designated as “Elohim.”

Are you willing to admit that the word here translated in the KJV “angels” is “Elohim”? Please note that I could supply other verses where I understand the word “Elohim” represents ONE angel, but here in Psalm 8:5 the translation is plural “angels”

I may as well give you a couple of verses where a singular being is called “Elohim” and where I believe that this represents ONE angel depicted as representing God the Father. Actually I have previously quoted the first:
Genesis 17:1-4,22 (KJV): 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfecta. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

The second is similar:
Exodus 3:6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JudgeRightly]

Greetings again Jerry,
I may not press altogether my view of Psalm 8:5 again, but I was answering your request: Are you willing to admit that the word here translated in the KJV “angels” is “Elohim”? Please note that I could supply other verses where I understand the word “Elohim” represents ONE angel, but here in Psalm 8:5 the translation is plural “angels”

I may as well give you a couple of verses where a singular being is called “Elohim” and where I believe that this represents ONE angel depicted as representing God the Father. Actually I have previously quoted the first:
Genesis 17:1-4,22 (KJV): 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfecta. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

The second is similar:
Exodus 3:6 (KJV): 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Exodus 3:6 "The Angel of the Lord" is a phrase used to refer to God Himself, and is most likely Jesus pre-incarnate. Jesus himself said "Before Abraham was, I am," pointing to when Moses asked God what His name was, and God said "I AM WHO I AM."

https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you willing to admit that the word here translated in the KJV “angels” is “Elohim”? Please note that I could supply other verses where I understand the word “Elohim” represents ONE angel, but here in Psalm 8:5 the translation is plural “angels”

Hi Trevor,

Yes, I will admit it. However, are you willing to argue that the Elohim mentioned in the following verse is the same elohim which refers to angels?:

"Behold, behold that I am he, and there is no god beside me"​

(Deut.32:39).​

Unless you are willing to argue that the Elohim in this verse is the same elohim at Psalm 8:5 then you have no case.

Are you willing to argue that?

Thanks!

 

[jamie]

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Do you think what Elisha saw was a vision? But the chariots of fire sound like a hot item.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Exodus 3:6 "The Angel of the Lord" is a phrase used to refer to God Himself, and is most likely Jesus pre-incarnate. Jesus himself said "Before Abraham was, I am," pointing to when Moses asked God what His name was, and God said "I AM WHO I AM."

Hi JudgeRightly,

One of the meanings of the Hebrew word translated "angel" is "messenger." Here we read that the "messenger" of Jehovah's "presence" saved Israel:

"The kind acts of Jehovah I make mention of, The praises of Jehovah, According to all that Jehovah hath done for us, And the abundance of the goodness to the house of Israel, That He hath done for them, According to His mercies, And according to the abundance of His kind acts. And He saith, Only My people they `are', Sons -- they lie not, and He is to them for a saviour. In all their distress `He is' no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old" (Isa.63:7-9; YLT).​

In that passage we read that Jehovah is the Savior of Israel. We also read that the "messenger of His presence" saved Israel. Jehovah also says that besides Him "there is no savior."

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour" (Isa.43:10-11).​

Therefore, we can know that Jehovah and the "messenger of His presence" are One. We can also know that this "messenger of His presence" is the Lord Jesus because He is God and that Savior:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ" (Acts 13:23).​