Knight and Zman one on one.

[novice]

A murderer in our terms is someone who kills other people, as if they have the right to grant or deny people their life. Murderers have sinned by pretending to be God. But God IS God. And it is not possible to call God a murderer. Every creature belongs to God, and every birth and every death has a perfectly ordained reason from God. God's ultimate purpose in ordaining a murder, and the murderer's purpose in carrying it out, are two very different things.

- This was taken from Mr. Coffee's post to Clete in "One on One: Romans 9" thread.

So when God said . . . "You shall not murder" what did He mean? Since you assert ultimately God is doing all the murdering/killing?

 

[novice]

No. Stop with the questions and make your point.

I am just curious to see how you will answer these questions. Everytime you give an answer it begs another question.

 

[death2impiety]

Ezekiel 36:22-32
IT IS NOT FOR YOUR SAKE THAT I WILL ACT, HOUSE OF ISRAEL, BUT FOR MY HOLY NAME, which you profaned among the nations where you went. I will honor the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations—the name you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am Yahweh"—the declaration of the Lord GOD —"when I demonstrate My holiness through you in their sight.

WILL, WHEN...none of these words imply that these things were predetermined just that God had intended to do them.

"For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. Then you will live in the land that I gave your fathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and will not bring famine on you. I will also make the fruit of the trees and the produce of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer experience reproach among the nations on account of famine. "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and abominations. IT IS NOT FOR YOUR SAKE THAT I WILL ACT" —the declaration of the Lord GOD —"let this be known to you. Be ashamed and humiliated because of your ways, house of Israel!"

Why does God work so tirelessly against himself?

Exodus 9:16
However, I have let you live for this purpose: to show you My power and to make My name known in all the earth.

Psalms 79:9
God of our salvation, help us—
for the glory of Your name.
Deliver us and atone for our sins,
because of Your name.

Ps. 106:8
Yet He saved them because of His name, to make His power known.

Isaiah 43:25
It is I who sweep away your transgressions for My own sake and remember your sins no more.

Isaiah 48:9-11
I will delay My anger for the honor of My name,and I will restrain Myself for your benefit and [for] My praise, so that you will not be destroyed.

Look, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

I will act for My own sake, indeed, My own, for how can I be defiled? I will not give My glory to another.

1 Peter 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

1 Kings 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

2 Chronicles 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Deuturonomy 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Deuturonomy 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thesselonians 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isaiah 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isaiah 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isaiah 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psalms 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Revelations 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Z, no one is arguing that God has no control over anything. God can intervene but He does not ordain evil and sin, every action is not accounted for. I think your belief is your own subconscious desire for justification to act in any way you please. If you believe all your actions are laid out on the table and predetermined you can't feel so bad about sinning because all the evil you do is part of "God's bigger plan." You're view is contrived, erroneous and baseless. Not one of the verses you've sited illustrate the point you are trying to prove. This is why you are so frustrated. If your postition worked you'd win and the open theist contingent would conceed.

-Why would God create knowing that it would lead to His own torment and frustration?

If you knew before hand that a child that you could give life to was to become the single most infamous murdering villian of all time would you have that child? No, you get your tubes tied. In your mind God designed the world to be a place of evil and death and disease out of His great plan for His own glory...and all this evil, all the suffering, all the things that God detests and despises, you claim that He causes it and then is angry and punishes us for its existance:doh:

 

[death2impiety]

:darwinsm: :mock:

A murderer in our terms is someone who kills other people, as if they have the right to grant or deny people their life. Murderers have sinned by pretending to be God. But God IS God. And it is not possible to call God a murderer. Every creature belongs to God, and every birth and every death has a perfectly ordained reason from God. God's ultimate purpose in ordaining a murder, and the murderer's purpose in carrying it out, are two very different things.

- This was taken from Mr. Coffee's post to Clete in "One on One: Romans 9" thread.

 

[novice]

:darwinsm: :mock:

Yeah, it was odd that Z Man would quote from Mr. Coffee. The Mr. Coffee One on One thread with Clete was a disaster for Mr. Coffee.

 

[Z Man]

So when God said . . . "You shall not murder" what did He mean? Since you assert ultimately God is doing all the murdering/killing?

God's not 'doing it'; we are.

 

[novice]

God's not 'doing it'; we are.

Yet by God's instruction right?

 

[ShadowMaid]

God's not 'doing it'; we are.

That doesn't make sense to what you were saying.

 

[Z Man]

Z, no one is arguing that God has no control over anything. God can intervene but He does not ordain evil and sin, every action is not accounted for.

Not one of the verses you've sited illustrate [that God ordains evil and sin].

1 Peter 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Deuturonomy 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Deuturonomy 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thesselonians 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isaiah 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isaiah 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isaiah 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Psalms 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."


Are you telling me that none of these verses make my point? Job 2:10 is my favorite.

I think your belief is your own subconscious desire for justification to act in any way you please. If you believe all your actions are laid out on the table and predetermined you can't feel so bad about sinning because all the evil you do is part of "God's bigger plan."

There were people in Paul's day who accused him of teaching the same thing:

Romans 3:5-8
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

You're view is contrived, erroneous and baseless.

At least it's Biblical.

-Why would God create knowing that it would lead to His own torment and frustration?

So that you could experience His glory.

In your mind God designed the world to be a place of evil and death and disease out of His great plan for His own glory...and all this evil, all the suffering, all the things that God detests and despises, you claim that He causes it and then is angry and punishes us for its existance:doh:

Someone once said "Christianity is a battle, not a dream". Being a Christian means we will suffer. Suffering is the most important part of life; Christ dealt with it and so shall we. You act as if God is suppose to take it light on us, and to grant our every wish - to make our lives as comfortable as possible. God's not a genie, and He's not here to make your life 'happy'. His purpose is solely to display His glory, and He will see to it that He does just that, whether that makes you happy or not.

 

[Z Man]

That doesn't make sense to what you were saying.

That's why me and Knight began the one on one thread. I posted Scripture that proves we are responsible for our actions that were ordained by God.

 

[novice]

1 Peter 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Those who disbelieve the chief cornerstone (Jesus) are disobedient to the word and therefore they stumble over the stumbling block (Jesus)!

The verse doesn't indicate that God picked individuals to stumble and then presdestined their stumble!

Do you have no shame Z Man????

 

[Z Man]

1Peter 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” 8 and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Those who disbelieve the chief cornerstone (Jesus) are disobedient to the word and therefore they stumble over the stumbling block (Jesus)!

The verse doesn't indicate that God picked individuals to stumble and then presdestined their stumble!

Do you have no shame Z Man????

You must be dyslexic too. Do you not see that v.8 tells us they are disobedient because they were predestined to be?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just some general thoughts on our topic:

-The sovereignty of God over the world has no parallels within the world, and there is no other God that we can compare him to. What the only God does is the only standard for what God should do.

-We do things in a moral order--a moral reality in which we live and move--a set of rules that's built-in to human life. It establishes the requirements for human flourishing and imposes justice when we break the rules. This is established by God. But no one put God into a moral order.

-The law was made for man. The commandment to have no other gods before God is addressed to creatures and has no relevance or applicability to God's righteousness. Again, the proscription against stealing cannot apply to the Owner of everything.

-This is not to say that God is lawless. God works according to a higher law that applies to his unique position and perfection.

-God cannot sin. He can make the existence of a sinful act certain by decree, the performance of which is done by the creature. God can ordain a neural event, but he cannot think a spiteful thought against himself.

-Even sin happens for a reason, and we must not think of God ordaining sin without remembering that he ordains justice. We don't think of sinful events in isolation, as if they have happened for their own sake. Every event is part of a vast and intricate web of human choices and natural events, and nothing makes sense by itself, or apart from the wisdom of the sovereign God and the Day when he will judge.

-There is no denying that the things that foster love and joy are the easist to ascribe to God. There is no denying that the wrath of a holy God burns against the presence of sin. Through all of these things he manifests the full range of his glory, according to plan (Rom. 9:21-23)

 

[ShadowMaid]

That's why me and Knight began the one on one thread. I posted Scripture that proves we are responsible for our actions that were ordained by God.

Right. Because your arguement contradicts itself.

 

[novice]

You must be dyslexic too. Do you not see that v.8 tells us they are disobedient because they were predestined to be?

Take you Calvinist glasses off.

Verse 8 simple states that those that are disobedient (whoever they are) in verse 7 will stumble because Jesus is the stumbling block! Its the natural consequence of disbelief.

In other words God isn't going to supernaturally force them to believe.

God makes this point clear in Romans . . . Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Romans 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Because they were disobedient God gives them up to their own vile passions. Whereas you would have us believe that God predestined their vile passions.

 

[death2impiety]

Knight- Asked another way . . .
Is my "making up problems" part of God's perfect plan that He ordained at some point in the past?

:cheers:

 

[death2impiety]

Take you Calvinist glasses off.

Verse 8 simple states that those that are disobedient (whoever they are) in verse 7 will stumble because Jesus is the stumbling block! Its the natural consequence of disbelief.

In other words God isn't going to supernaturally force them to believe.

God makes this point clear in Romans . . . Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Romans 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man — and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Romans 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Because they were disobedient God gives them up to their own vile passions. Whereas you would have us believe that God predestined their vile passions.

You got there before I could...

 

[death2impiety]

At least it's Biblical.

My point was that you're confusing the verses. You're basing your belief on misguided interpretation.

So that you could experience His glory.

Yet this is counterproductive. Surely His glory would be better experienced within a showing of true perfection.

Someone once said "Christianity is a battle, not a dream". Being a Christian means we will suffer. Suffering is the most important part of life; Christ dealt with it and so shall we. You act as if God is suppose to take it light on us, and to grant our every wish - to make our lives as comfortable as possible. God's not a genie, and He's not here to make your life 'happy'. His purpose is solely to display His glory, and He will see to it that He does just that, whether that makes you happy or not.

Not at all. I just understand that sin and suffering is a product of mans choice against God, not Gods choice to make man against God. I'm proud to pick up my cross daily, to partake in the suffering of Christ. But its my choice to do so, just as rejecting God is my choice, which comes with a penalty of damnation. God cannot judge someone who He ordained to sin against Him.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Not at all. I just understand that sin and suffering is a product of mans choice against God, not Gods choice to make man against God. I'm proud to pick up my cross daily, to partake in the suffering of Christ. But its my choice to do so, just as rejecting God is my choice, which comes with a penalty of damnation. God cannot judge someone who He ordained to sin against Him.

POTD :first:

 

[Z Man]

Just some general thoughts on our topic:

-The sovereignty of God over the world has no parallels within the world, and there is no other God that we can compare him to. What the only God does is the only standard for what God should do.

-We do things in a moral order--a moral reality in which we live and move--a set of rules that's built-in to human life. It establishes the requirements for human flourishing and imposes justice when we break the rules. This is established by God. But no one put God into a moral order.

-The law was made for man. The commandment to have no other gods before God is addressed to creatures and has no relevance or applicability to God's righteousness. Again, the proscription against stealing cannot apply to the Owner of everything.

-This is not to say that God is lawless. God works according to a higher law that applies to his unique position and perfection.

-God cannot sin. He can make the existence of a sinful act certain by decree, the performance of which is done by the creature. God can ordain a neural event, but he cannot think a spiteful thought against himself.

-Even sin happens for a reason, and we must not think of God ordaining sin without remembering that he ordains justice. We don't think of sinful events in isolation, as if they have happened for their own sake. Every event is part of a vast and intricate web of human choices and natural events, and nothing makes sense by itself, or apart from the wisdom of the sovereign God and the Day when he will judge.

-There is no denying that the things that foster love and joy are the easist to ascribe to God. There is no denying that the wrath of a holy God burns against the presence of sin. Through all of these things he manifests the full range of his glory, according to plan (Rom. 9:21-23)

Thanks for clearing things up a bit Mr. Coffee. Your posts are always clear and direct. Good job! :thumb: