Knight and Zman one on one.

[death2impiety]

If so, it would of been done that way. Do you not trust God? I'm sure the way He has chosen to do things is the best way. Don't you?

Indeed I trust God. What I don't trust is men who distort the Bible to say that God would cause dispair so to be glorified.
If perfection exists, God could create it...since God is perfect, perfection exists, therefore, a good, loving God would not ordain sin (which He HATES) when he could ordain perfection. it just doesn't add up.

 

[death2impiety]

Let me clarify a point that a lot of people seem to have trouble with on this topic. When God ordains us to do something, whether it be murder, or to help an old lady across the street, He does it for a greater good; primarily for His glory. When we commit the act that He has ordained, we do it for a whole nother purpose. We may kill someone for selfish reasons, or help an old lady across the street to make us feel better about ourselves, or to be recognized as being 'good'.

The verses I presented on One on One with Knight are not meant to answer the question, "How can I be responsible if God controls it", but rather to show us that the Bible does teach that it is truth. How so? Well, the answer can be found in the reasons/motivations behind our actions. God does them for good, we do them for evil.

It sounds like your creating a double standard. God motivates people to murder children for good, yet we do them for evil? Zman you're insane.

 

[Z Man]

So to Zman, God ordained that we sin, ordains each sin and also that we be responsible for it... using this logic, it sounds like God is responsible for it.

Did not the Scriptural passages I presented show us that this logic is false? I didn't even get to case # 3, but it was basically the story from 2 Samuel 24, where God moves David to take a census, and yet, a few verses later, David begs God for His mercies in his sin of taking a census. David wanted to take that census, even as God moved him to do so. God ordained it, and David was guilty. It's a Biblical truth, agree or not.

Something I really don't get is how a Christian could believe that God would ordain that one child be aborted, or one 10 year old raped...

If you can comprehend that God had His own Son murdered, why can't you comprehend that God would have sinful humans murdered?

 

[death2impiety]

Did not the Scriptural passages I presented show us that this logic is false? I didn't even get to case # 3, but it was basically the story from 2 Samuel 24, where God moves David to take a census, and yet, a few verses later, David begs God for His mercies in his sin of taking a census. David wanted to take that census, even as God moved him to do so. God ordained it, and David was guilty. It's a Biblical truth, agree or not.

If you can comprehend that God had His own Son murdered, why can't you comprehend that God would have sinful humans murdered?

There was reason to the rhyme. Christ was murdered for a purpose, one which we understand. Raping a 10 year old girl hardly serves a purpose to humanity and does nothing for the glory of God.

 

[Z Man]

Indeed I trust God. What I don't trust is men who distort the Bible to say that God would cause dispair so to be glorified.

Ezekiel 36:22-32
IT IS NOT FOR YOUR SAKE THAT I WILL ACT, HOUSE OF ISRAEL, BUT FOR MY HOLY NAME, which you profaned among the nations where you went. I will honor the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations—the name you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am Yahweh"—the declaration of the Lord GOD —"when I demonstrate My holiness through you in their sight.

"For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. Then you will live in the land that I gave your fathers; you will be My people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will summon the grain and make it plentiful, and will not bring famine on you. I will also make the fruit of the trees and the produce of the field plentiful, so that you will no longer experience reproach among the nations on account of famine.

"Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and abominations. IT IS NOT FOR YOUR SAKE THAT I WILL ACT" —the declaration of the Lord GOD —"let this be known to you. Be ashamed and humiliated because of your ways, house of Israel!"

Exodus 9:16
However, I have let you live for this purpose: to show you My power and to make My name known in all the earth.

Psalms 79:9
God of our salvation, help us—
for the glory of Your name.
Deliver us and atone for our sins,
because of Your name.

Ps. 106:8
Yet He saved them because of His name, to make His power known.

Isaiah 43:25
It is I who sweep away your transgressions for My own sake and remember your sins no more.

Isaiah 48:9-11
I will delay My anger for the honor of My name,and I will restrain Myself for your benefit and [for] My praise, so that you will not be destroyed.

Look, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

I will act for My own sake, indeed, My own, for how can I be defiled? I will not give My glory to another.

1 Peter 2:8
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

1 Samuel 2:25
But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.

1 Kings 12.15
So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the LORD, that He might establish His word, which the LORD spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

Acts 4.27-28
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

Luke 22:22
For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"

2 Chronicles 25.20
But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.

Deuturonomy 29:4
"Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear."

Deuturonomy 2:30
"But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today."

2 Thesselonians 2.11
For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false.

Isaiah 44:18
They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.

Isaiah 19:2
And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom;

Isaiah 63:17
O LORD, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes of your heritage.

Job 2:10
But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips. ["Evil" in this verse refers to natural calamity and moral evil: Job 1:12-19].

Psalms 105:25
He turned their hearts to hate his people, to deal craftily with his servants.

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Revelations 17:17
For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has prepared everything for His purpose—
even the wicked for the day of disaster.

 

[Z Man]

There was reason to the rhyme. Christ was murdered for a purpose, one which we understand. Raping a 10 year old girl hardly serves a purpose to humanity and does nothing for the glory of God.

How do you know? Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it has no reason.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;


*Knight, this is a perfect example above of my explanation of this verse in action in which we discussed.*

 

[novice]

If you can comprehend that God had His own Son murdered, why can't you comprehend that God would have sinful humans murdered?

:vomit:

You are actually comparing Jesus taking on the sin of the world through His death on the cross to every disgusting immoral murder that has ever taken place in all of history???????

You make the murderers of Jesus the heros and reduce the value of the actual event!

I guess according to you murder (in general) must be good?

:down:

 

[Z Man]

It sounds like your creating a double standard. God motivates people to murder children for good, yet we do them for evil? ZMAN YOU'RE INSANE.

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

- Joseph's response to his brothers who tried to kill him.

I guess Joseph and I are in the same boat.

 

[Z Man]

:vomit:

You are actually comparing Jesus taking on the sin of the world through His death on the cross to every disgusting immoral murder that has ever taken place in all of history???????

You make the murderers of Jesus the heros and reduce the value of the actual event!

I guess according to you murder (in general) must be good?

:down:

I've said no such thing.


If God ordained that men murder His only Son, a perfect Being, then why is it not possible for God to ordain that men murder other men, who are sinful creatures created by the Creator Himself?

 

[novice]

Genesis 50:20
As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

- Joseph's response to his brothers who tried to kill him.

I guess Joseph and I are in the same boat.

Uh, Z Man, Genesis 50:20 says that God took an evil event (done by men) and used it for good.

It's painful to see how you make God evil.

I am curious, do you believe that evil exists? And if so, can you describe it?

 

[novice]

I've said no such thing.


If God ordained that men murder His only Son, a perfect Being, then why is it not possible for God to ordain that men murder other men, who are sinful creatures created by the Creator Himself?

Does God like murder?

 

[Z Man]

I am curious, do you believe that evil exists? And if so, can you describe it?

Of course it exists. It exists in our hearts and minds.

 

[Z Man]

Does God like murder?

Irrelevant question. The fact remains that God ordained the murder of His Son. If He can do that to His own Son, surely He can have you killed!

 

[novice]

Of course it exists. It exists in our hearts and minds.

How did it get there?

 

[novice]

Irrelevant question. The fact remains that God ordained the murder of His Son. If He can do that to His own Son, surely He can have you killed!

Sure, he could kill me, but could He (would He) murder me?

Is God a murderer?

 

[On Fire]

I grew up a "Three-and-a-half point" Calvinist. (Baptist to be specific.) We broke from Calvinism in that we accepted Universal Atonement, and that we accepted a rather limited version of Libertarian Free Will (God was sovereign and in controll, but it was possible to rebel against His will).

Funniest thing I've read all day.

 

[Z Man]

How did it get there?

Satan.

You've read Genesis; you know the story. Get to the point of what you are getting at.

 

[novice]

Satan.

You've read Genesis; you know the story. Get to the point of what you are getting at.

Did Satan put evil in my heart apart from God's direction?

 

[Z Man]

Sure, he could kill me, but could He (would He) murder me?

Is God a murderer?

A murderer in our terms is someone who kills other people, as if they have the right to grant or deny people their life. Murderers have sinned by pretending to be God. But God IS God. And it is not possible to call God a murderer. Every creature belongs to God, and every birth and every death has a perfectly ordained reason from God. God's ultimate purpose in ordaining a murder, and the murderer's purpose in carrying it out, are two very different things.

- This was taken from Mr. Coffee's post to Clete in "One on One: Romans 9" thread.

 

[Z Man]

Did Satan put evil in my heart apart from God's direction?

No. Stop with the questions and make your point.