JWs, Watchtower, Arian, Oneness, Modalist, Christadelphians, etc.
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They are all lost and without hope.
unbelievers!
Unbelievers = not called at this time
Who made you the judge over who are lost or not?
I did
They are all wrong
Matthew 12:33 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Words Reveal Character
33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is recognized and judged by its fruit.
notreligus
New member
Add Mormonism and I'd say that Campbellism is what most of them have in common. Campbellite preachers helped found the Mormon Church. A Campbellite preacher was involved with the Christadelphians. And the founders of Campbellism were basically Modalists. Alexander Campbell denied the Sonship and preexistence of Jesus and said that Jesus did not exist before Augustus Caesar.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
John 8:58 in the hot seat
John 8:58 in the hot seat
Covered John 8:58 here, and elsewhere
The phrase 'ego eimi' is NOT the divine name, much less 'YHWH'. I'd apply some better exegesis.
The capitalizing of 'I AM' is unjustified, and is but an 'emphasis' added by the translators. Find out why.
John 8:58 in the hot seat
Covered John 8:58 here, and elsewhere
The phrase 'ego eimi' is NOT the divine name, much less 'YHWH'. I'd apply some better exegesis.
The capitalizing of 'I AM' is unjustified, and is but an 'emphasis' added by the translators. Find out why.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
I am (he)
I am (he)
Again, 'ego eimi' a common greek pronoun does not EQUATE or EQUAL the Hebrew name "ehyeh asher ehyeh", or YHWH. That's eisegesis from a prefigured/presumed Trinitarian view, which is imposing 'YHHW' into the text...to make Jesus God.
See ego eimi (wiki)
I recommend reviewing the debate with Robert Bowman and Jason BeDuhn here.
I am (he)
Again, 'ego eimi' a common greek pronoun does not EQUATE or EQUAL the Hebrew name "ehyeh asher ehyeh", or YHWH. That's eisegesis from a prefigured/presumed Trinitarian view, which is imposing 'YHHW' into the text...to make Jesus God.
See ego eimi (wiki)
I recommend reviewing the debate with Robert Bowman and Jason BeDuhn here.
Greetings freelight,
I enjoyed listening to your video and you seem to have covered the subject correctly and thoroughly. The following is less complete than your presentation, but could add a few more concepts.
The Gospel of John is not designed to prove that Jesus is God, rather John 20:31 clearly states John’s purpose is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Also the miracles that Jesus worked were signs, and again John includes these specifically in his statement in John 20:31 again as proof that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus wrought the miracles with the power that had been given to him by God, his Father Acts 2:22-24.
The following is taking up the various places in John’s Gospel where the phrase “I am” occurs and testing the Trinitarian claim. I am not sure if I have found every relevant occurrence. We need to determine if Jesus and John are connecting all or some of these with Exodus 3:14. Principally we need to determine if the “I am” of John 8:58 is directly connected with Exodus 3:14 or has some other meaning.
John 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (S# 1510) not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am (S# 1510) not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 3:28 (KJV): Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The Apostle John records these words of John the Baptist when the representatives of the Jews questioned him. This was not just an idle inquiry, but part of their role to examine if a prophet spoke with Divine authority. They also felt challenged because here was a new prophet who seemed to be working independently of the Scribes and Pharisees and the Sanhedrin Council. Please note the phrases “I am not the Christ” and “I am not” (Elijah). In my opinion, neither of these are connected with Exodus 3:14, but is possibly the start of a theme that John draws attention to by recording various “I am” passages. In other words it is the question of who a person actually is, and it is usually the authorities who want to determine their status.
John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (S# 1510) he.
Here is Jesus’ confession that He is the Christ, but note this is similar to the language that John the Baptist used. The translators of the KJV have added “he” in italics to connect Jesus’ answer to say that Jesus is here claiming to be the Christ. They are suggesting by this that Jesus is not claiming to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14, even though the “I am” of John 4:26 is identical to John 8:58 in the original Greek. In other words the phrase “I am” is a simple expression in this context, but seems a bit awkward in English, requiring the addition of he.
John 6:20 (KJV): But he saith unto them, It is (S# 1510) I; be not afraid.
This is in a different order and I am not familiar enough with Greek to comment except to say that I do not think Jesus is appealing to Exodus 3:14 here. He was comforting them by his words and the familiar tone of his voice.
“I am” occurs in John 6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51, :7:28, 29, 33, 34, 36, 8:12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28, and each of these describe in one way or another who Jesus is, but it is the last two of these, John 8:24,28 that may be connected to John 8:58, as they are in the same context and spoken at the same time.
John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now again the KJV translators have added the “he” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.
John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man.
John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
This is the blind man speaking and again the translators have added the he to give the proper sense in the English. This particular usage here for the blind man again demystifies the expression in the Greek “I am” to show that it is not automatically a reference to what at first may seem to be the obscure words of Exodus 3:14.
In addition to this it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be” as found in the margins of the RV and RSV.
I also like Tyndale’s translation, as he also used the future tense and has some unique spelling:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
Therefore I have serious doubts that Exodus 3:14 is in any real way connected with John 8:58. A true understanding of the Name “I will be” from Exodus 3:14 necessitates that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son.
Kind regards
Trevor
Covered John 8:58 here, and elsewhere
I enjoyed listening to your video and you seem to have covered the subject correctly and thoroughly. The following is less complete than your presentation, but could add a few more concepts.
The Gospel of John is not designed to prove that Jesus is God, rather John 20:31 clearly states John’s purpose is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Also the miracles that Jesus worked were signs, and again John includes these specifically in his statement in John 20:31 again as proof that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus wrought the miracles with the power that had been given to him by God, his Father Acts 2:22-24.
The following is taking up the various places in John’s Gospel where the phrase “I am” occurs and testing the Trinitarian claim. I am not sure if I have found every relevant occurrence. We need to determine if Jesus and John are connecting all or some of these with Exodus 3:14. Principally we need to determine if the “I am” of John 8:58 is directly connected with Exodus 3:14 or has some other meaning.
John 1:20-23 (KJV): 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am (S# 1510) not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am (S# 1510) not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 3:28 (KJV): Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
The Apostle John records these words of John the Baptist when the representatives of the Jews questioned him. This was not just an idle inquiry, but part of their role to examine if a prophet spoke with Divine authority. They also felt challenged because here was a new prophet who seemed to be working independently of the Scribes and Pharisees and the Sanhedrin Council. Please note the phrases “I am not the Christ” and “I am not” (Elijah). In my opinion, neither of these are connected with Exodus 3:14, but is possibly the start of a theme that John draws attention to by recording various “I am” passages. In other words it is the question of who a person actually is, and it is usually the authorities who want to determine their status.
John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am (S# 1510) he.
Here is Jesus’ confession that He is the Christ, but note this is similar to the language that John the Baptist used. The translators of the KJV have added “he” in italics to connect Jesus’ answer to say that Jesus is here claiming to be the Christ. They are suggesting by this that Jesus is not claiming to be the “I am” of Exodus 3:14, even though the “I am” of John 4:26 is identical to John 8:58 in the original Greek. In other words the phrase “I am” is a simple expression in this context, but seems a bit awkward in English, requiring the addition of he.
John 6:20 (KJV): But he saith unto them, It is (S# 1510) I; be not afraid.
This is in a different order and I am not familiar enough with Greek to comment except to say that I do not think Jesus is appealing to Exodus 3:14 here. He was comforting them by his words and the familiar tone of his voice.
“I am” occurs in John 6:20, 35, 41, 48, 51, :7:28, 29, 33, 34, 36, 8:12, 16, 18, 23, 24, 28, and each of these describe in one way or another who Jesus is, but it is the last two of these, John 8:24,28 that may be connected to John 8:58, as they are in the same context and spoken at the same time.
John 8:23-28 (KJV): 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Now again the KJV translators have added the “he” in both occurrences, and this gives the impression that they did not believe that Jesus was claiming here a connection with Exodus 3:14. It speaks in the first of his claim to a Divine origin as the Son of God v23, and in the second that he was the Son of Man v28. Rather than having some claim to independent Deity, he rather states his absolute dependence upon God His Father, “I do nothing of myself”.
John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Despite the context and usage of the phrase in John 8:28, the translators here with exactly the same original words have translated this as “I am” and not “I am he”. They thus leave wide open the suggestion that this connects with Exodus 3:14. In my opinion the same phrase occurring in John 8: v24 and v28 qualifies how we should understand John 8:58, spoken at the same time to the same audience. My conclusion is that when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58, he is claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man.
John 9:9 (KJV): Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
This is the blind man speaking and again the translators have added the he to give the proper sense in the English. This particular usage here for the blind man again demystifies the expression in the Greek “I am” to show that it is not automatically a reference to what at first may seem to be the obscure words of Exodus 3:14.
In addition to this it is my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated with the future tense “I will be” as found in the margins of the RV and RSV.
I also like Tyndale’s translation, as he also used the future tense and has some unique spelling:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
Therefore I have serious doubts that Exodus 3:14 is in any real way connected with John 8:58. A true understanding of the Name “I will be” from Exodus 3:14 necessitates that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son.
Kind regards
Trevor
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
:thumb:
Hi TrevorL,
I agree. Its quite a jump to take the greek 'ego eimi' all by itself as a 'name' for 'God', since its incomplete as the Septuagint renders the divine name in Ex. 3:14 as 'ego eimi ho on',.....(I am the Being),....and even still as you noted,...the Hebrew meaning of 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' indicates a futuristic tense as 'I will be what I will be', or 'I shall be'...its a generative sense and indicates 'God' fulfilling his plans/desires in fellowship with his people in the unfolding ages. God nowhere exclusively identifies his divine name as 'ego eimi', a common greek pronoun used by many persons as a self-reference.
The JW translation of this verse is probably closer to the original sense, as in “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” They provide support for this rendering here.
What beameup needs to understand is that there are different views among Unitarians about whether Jesus pre-existed or not, and his relationship with the 'logos' of John's writings. I'd have to do a little more research again on this particular among the various schools of thought.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Answer: They have no warranted claim to the label "Christian" as it is understood within Scripture.
AMR
Funny how even after being shown you continue fulfilling what Yeshua warns us all about:
But what happens in the following accounts from Mark 13 and Luke 21 if we take a certain instance of ego eimi and render the actual statements for what they actually say in the negative manner in which the Master delivers them? He says "Many shall come in my name saying THAT I AM, and they shall deceive many." Is that not exactly what we see right here in this thread? and in a plethora of constant other threads whenever and wherever this topic is brought up? There are MANY running around IN THE NAME OF JESUS/YESHUA claiming THAT he is I AM, just as he said they would do. Could this be a hidden reason why the scholars do not render "hoti" in the following critical passages? Why does it always go untranslated in these two instances? Why is it always OMITTED from the words of the Master? Is it not then because if indeed they rendered the passages for what they truly say then the entire meaning of the statements would be reversed and their own three fingers would then be pointing right back at themselves?
Mark 13:6 Textus Receptus
6 πολλοι γαρ ελευσονται επι τω ονοματι μου λεγοντες οτι εγω ειμι και πολλους πλανησουσιν
Luke 21:8 Textus Receptus
8 ο δε ειπε βλεπετε μη πλανηθητε πολλοι γαρ ελευσονται επι τω ονοματι μου λεγοντες οτι εγω ειμι και ο καιρος ηγγικε μη ουν πορευθητε οπισω αυτων
"πολλοι γαρ ελευσονται επι τω ονοματι μου λεγοντες οτι εγω ειμι και πολλους πλανησουσιν"
"For many shall come in my name saying that I AM; and they shall deceive many."
See what has happened here? Omit G3754 ὅτι, (hoti, "that"), and insert commas at will, and suddenly, wallah!, this key of the kingdom is hidden from the eyes of the reader. They therefore do no differently than their own fathers, the Pharisees, Sadducs, and Scribes. At the same time they go about in the name of Yeshua proclaiming THAT he is I AM, and deceiving many, just as he said they would do. And if you do not agree with them and their "church fathers" then you must be a lost heretic on your way to hell. :chuckle:[End Quote.
beameup
New member
Your "Unitarian" theology simply "falls apart" when select passages from the Old Testament are presented.
You suffer the same blindness that the Jews suffer when it comes to the Tanakh. You have to resort to "the Greek" (and the corrupted Greek at that), and other non-Biblical "sources", just like the Jehovah's Witnesses cult. Cults have one "common denominator", the denial of the Deity of Jesus Christ (that puts you firmly in the Devil's camp).
You suffer the same blindness that the Jews suffer when it comes to the Tanakh. You have to resort to "the Greek" (and the corrupted Greek at that), and other non-Biblical "sources", just like the Jehovah's Witnesses cult. Cults have one "common denominator", the denial of the Deity of Jesus Christ (that puts you firmly in the Devil's camp).