Ceremonially unclean? You mean for sacrifice or for eating...
No stipulations in Gen 9 about how to kill the meat or eating carcasses or human flesh...
Judaic Christians and Pagan Christians
- Thread starter CherubRam
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Ceremonially unclean? You mean for sacrifice or for eating...
No stipulations in Gen 9 about how to kill the meat or eating carcasses or human flesh...
CherubRam
New member
Both.
CherubRam
New member
Certain animals were regarded as unclean. Later on those animals were regarded as ceremonially unclean.
Leviticus 11:4
“‘There are some that only chew the cud or only have a divided hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.
People could eat food that was not normally eaten, but it comes with health risk.
As everyone knows, even foods that are regarded as clean can become hazardous.
Lol...the word bible is not in the bible
Yes the council of Jerusalem agrees that eating food/meat with its blood or not properly killed renders it unclean...Gentiles needed knowing...
Eating pig without blood or properly killed or not offered to idols still doesn't make it clean or considered food...
CherubRam
New member
I just found out that the word "ceremonial" is not in the original text.
Lon
Well-known member
Not dodged, just not a very cogent OP. You are all over the map so nobody really knows what you are talking about. I'm a global thinker and generally can read and collate an idea. I think I've a pretty good idea where you are coming from concerning JW type concerns. Basically you need to clarify that you don't observe any man-made holiday and see them all as pagan. I will celebrate whatever day I feel like, in Christ. You've no say about it. Galatians 5:1 answers the OP. JWs and the like are under bondage. I'm sure piety makes you feel good, but you aren't my Mediator. I'm not being mean, I'm just sad you take comfort in bondage as do all JW's. Galatians is a good book to read for all JW's. Spend some time there, on your own, without WatchTower commentary. They are just men and women and are wrong. God is right. The Apostle Paul is right. -Lon
Lon
Well-known member
Some houses have strict parents where love isn't the rule (yours). God's is not a house of bondage. As long as you are Judaized according to Galatians, 1) not living in grace Galatians 1:6 2) Galatians 2:14 living like a gentile yourself, yet trying to bond others into observances you yourself don't consistently follow, which is religious piety without the heart 3) is a slap in the face of Our Lord Jesus Christ's grace Galatians 2:21 4) Living bewitched by the WatchTower and Kingdom Hall Galatians 3:1 (as I said, Galatians is addressed to you, you are that Galatian)...
I'm not being mean to you. I beg and implore that you read Galatians several times this week as if you are that Galatian. I truly believe scripture alone suffices for this conversation. I believe all of Galatians answers your OP VERY specifically. If not, start a thread on Galatians and argue with me over its content. It answers, as I've shown, the problem of Judaized legalistic living. I truly pray blessings are added to you. I am not offering you harm, but life. Read the book. -Lon
love rules in my house as we are to do good in this household of faith gal 6:10 and even in gal defines what this good means and which laws this love fulfills...pagans and heathens love but we have a different standards and examples
I remain a slave to Him...His because I love Him
doubt you know what that term means or how it is applied...it doesnt mean doing something OT...are we judaizing when we dont kill or steal?...what was occuring with the judaizers was their claim that works must be done in order to receive salvation...that is something not even the OT taught as even Abraham was of faith...the Hebrews were saved long before they received their house rules...they kept them not to be saved but because they were saved...kinda like keeping a kitchen clean is a chore until its your kitchen...you dont clean the kitchen to earn it...you clean it cuz its yours
halleluYah His grace compels me to obey and keep the rules ...obedience is grace actually...is why He gave us things to do to assure ourselves we are in favor with Him not to be saved but because we already are...
I merely am grateful to have structure and guidance this household provides...
again not keeping rules to gain entrance to the house...preserving His house is my way to show gratitude to Him for allowing me entrance...
no clue what you are swinging at here
that gentile grafted in being warned of others in this house teaching false teaching...in this case liberty grace alone do as thou wilt?
Not sure you realize its not my OP...not sure about a lot of things with you...
You do know living in the Spirit means you walk in the Spirit...there is a path, a way, manner, destination...I suggest you follow
Liberty to serve as He did...just as...do as He did...obey Him His...because you received His Grace
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Lon
Well-known member
:nono: Seen too many of you JW's. You are all into hypocritical standards no one of you can attain or achieve, yet excommunicate another for the same thing you yourselves do. It is NOT a house of love and certainly is a house of bondage ELSE you'd be able to do so without the hypocrisy. Some of the worst have been KH speakers. You know it, I know it. Legalism, pride, and holier-than-thou are your church's staples. It isn't godliness. You are stuck in works and salvation by works. It is a man-made, man-driven religion. Come out from among them and be holy.
The Apostle Paul makes it clear. I don't care what you doubt. I care what cult you are caught up in.
Nope. You've lost the meaning of Grace. Romans 11:6 Galatians 2:21
Known too many JW's. Know too much about what the WT teaches. It is all wrong and wrongheaded. Further? A milestone about necks. It is all-too-human hypocrisy demanding more than even you are capable of....
Grace 'merited' is no longer grace. You have warped the FAR reaching grace of God for your own righteousness. Philippians 3:9 Paul counted his rubbish yet said it was/is incredibly better than you, especially as a gentile, will ever be able to do. THAT kind of love and grace makes a child who wants to walk in grace but isn't in bondage to some other holier-than-thou. He/she simply walks with his/her Savior, completely in grace he/she cannot escape because the Being of Christ our Great God and Savior Titus 2:13 is incapable of disowning Himself. 2 Timothy 2:13 In a nutshell, JW's don't really know Who He is. You wind up fretting because you've no idea of His nature. He saves Hebrews 7:25
Your warped version becomes a false hope of 'cooperation' with His saving work. :nono: It is impossible. I appreciate a 'desire' to love, because we were created for it BUT you nor I can ever 'earn' what is given in grace, less, as scripture says, it is no longer grace and Christ's salvation for us was an act of vanity. I feel bad for deceived JW's. I feel bad for your. Read the bible. It disagrees with JW's and their poor and amateur doctrines.
Insomuch as you defend it, espouse it....
lain:Ephesians 2:10 If it is 'you' then it is NOT the Spirit. I suggest you take His yoke upon you. It is easy, and His burden is 'light.' Anyone walking in grace and the Spirit no longer is fretting, he/she is resting in Him and realizes he/she is being conformed by the Spirit. If any man be in Christ, he/she is a new creature already. We can encourage one another, but only God gives increase. John 15:5 I take it very seriously Colossians 1:17 by the same token.
Obey? Here comes your long list. His is very short: Galatians 5:16 Again, spend some time this week (now a week later) reading the book as if it is written to you. What I mean by "obedience" is different than what you mean by it. You mean in your flesh and trying at the same time to please God and earn your salvation. I mean 'live according to the freedom of that new-nature, if you have Him living inside you." Obedience in this case is simply following what a new desire and nature in Christ ALREADY wants to do. We have too many disciplinarians standing in the way between we and Christ. There is not but one Mediator between God and men. I,we don't need you, the Kingdom Hall, or the WatchTower lording over us. I could give a rip about its excommunicative abuse. Nobody stands between you or I and Christ. We stand or fall to Him alone. Romans 14:4 He is able to make him/her stand.
We are citizens of israel grafted into where the jews were cut off...as citizens of israel we are to be mindful of the laws given to it...the early church did so...meeting for Pentecost...Paul hurried to keep Passover...implored we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread of spirit and truth...Peter refused meat unclean and thus kept kosher and the Jerusalem council listed 4 things all within the OT christians were to do...
1. Not eat food offered to idols
2. Sexual immorality
3. Not eat meat strangled (not kosher)
4. Not eat meat with blood in it (not kosher)
1.abstain from food polluted by idols - Leviticus 17:8-9 "Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice and does not bring it to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting to sacrifice it to the LORD--that man must be cut off from his people.' " To guard carefully against idolatry, this command was interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating any meat that had been offered in a prohibited manner. In Rev. 2:14, 20 the words of Jesus show agreement with that interpretation.
2.from sexual immorality - Leviticus 18:6-26 lists a wide range of sexually immoral activities and ends with, "The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,"
3.from the meat of strangled animals - Leviticus 17:13,15 "Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth,
"Anyone, whether native-born or alien, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then he will be clean." These were interpreted by the Jews to prohibit eating the meat of strangled animals.
4. and from blood - Leviticus 17:10 "Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood--I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people."
Here is a good study on Acts and Paul for those interested in what was going on that first century...
http://www.fogwhistle.ca/acts/evidence.html
wut? Wow...you really are off the mark...I am not JW no KH speaker and Paul warns of biting and devouring you're engaging here...I must of struck a nerve but read again and tell me believers dont have a standard in our love
what that we establish law? Yes he did...
not in a cult...you recovering from one?
Romans 11:6...read carefully what is written and what I wrote...we do not to earn grace or achieve salvation...but because we already are saved...
Galatians 2:21...again read carefully what is written and what I wrote...I wish to do His ways to be like Him because of what He did...died to make me righteous...
Please recall the Hebrews were saved first...came out of Egypt first and then were given the Law...same in our case...saved from sin first then given "Yah's house rules" and wish to keep them out of gratitude for what was done for me...
sorry to hear...
ditto...but I am neither and no little about the WT teachings...
oh my...well thankfully Scripture is all too clear with Him it is possible...
will pass it along to the next JW I meet...
certainly don't expose your do what thou willst...choose any day you wish...false worshipping cuz grace sets me at liberty to not be a slave of Him Who bought you and asks you to do His Father's will as He did...follow Him His way...Insomuch as you defend it, espouse it....
Your law of liberty Spirit following way does NOT lead you outside of Him His way...there are tell tale signs that still seperate His from the ways and love of this world...His are a peculiar people
indeed...there are still works to be done...His Will His Way...we are not free to choose any day we please...His yoke sets us apart...a sabbatismos remains for His people is clearly outlined by Paul
who is fretting? You're triggered into a rant totally off target...I rejoice He has given me a way by which I can worship and show my gratitude for what He has done...much grace in obedience...much joy and peace knowing we are pleasing as we do as He did His way...
exactly...wishing to do things of the Spirit and not of the flesh...no Sunday Ham cuz man's peer pressure...I mean sacred traditions allow it...we seek to please Him...our faith compels obedience to Him His way...
good...do as He did...just as
um right...the thing is is that not only are we given instruction to walk in the Spirit but a map to outline what that looks like...the Spirit will not lead you outside Him His way...as a house divided cannot stand...think not the Law is abolished...that is the map the Spirit will walk you by
wrong...I mean obey because I have faith and gratitude for what was done...again...Hebrews were saved first then given the Law to teach them who they were...HIS people...unique distinct not like the world...
no where is it written that He wanted to keep another day of worship or replace the one given...He said do as He did which was do His Father's will...which is keep His Father's law...here are they that keep Yah's commandments and the testimony of Yahushua...
good good...keep recovering
and be more like Him...not less
Lon
Well-known member
Mostly your fault by expression and jumping in to defend a JW, but I'll take the correction, gladly. TRY to pick and choose your battles and threads better. You came across defending in a JW thread. Be a bit more discerning? :think: Just an idea, but because of this, my first encounter with you will have me thinking you are JW from here out but I will TRY to remember you are not. As I said, you really need to pick and choose your battles better. This one has you on the wrong side, and more than just me, will have you pegged wrongly because of it. When you see the accusation in the future, try and realize you did it to yourself, especially when it isn't me saying so. When it comes to me, please just 'Sorry, I'm not a JW, remember?' will help. Again, I'll try not to forget but a bit of grace as my memory takes a bit longer to set these days.
I think you are kicking against the wrong wall...do you believe a new creation can do anything but follow his/her new nature and the object of that nature? Further --> Do you think you can encourage that behavior in one not filled with His Spirit? Galatians 5:1 I used to be where you are. I do believe we can and should encourage one another, but I rarely think it a disciplinary action. If such occurs, to me, it is the exception rather than rule and I proceed very carefully at that point because ultimately, they either are, or are not Christ's. We may yet disagree here as to function, but I don't think we can theologically. We are digressing, I'd suggest, over application of a problematic.
Again, seem an agreement to me. If we are His, our freedom remains "in" Him, if you follow...
And again, we may disagree as to application, but for me, I rarely try to get in the way of a believer and his/her Master. He/she will stand or fall, because He is able to make him/her stand. Romans 14:4
The problem is apples and oranges, and again, I think you need to pick and choose your battles with a lot more discernment. This is a JW thread and the concern is bondage as well as obedience to WatchTower directives than anything a biblical Christian needs to be concerned about. Imho, you've been inept and undiscerning in choosing this battle, here, in this thread, where JW legalism and milestones about necks is the concern, NOT directives in following Christ in freedom. So, while I rejoice you are not caught in this cult, you came in the name of it. This IS a JW thread. Know where you are and where you are posting would be my continued advice. This isn't the right thread.
On that note, you can address the concerns of this thread and especially those JW concerns as well. :up:
Not from JW Watchtower abuses, but certainly some legalists among Baptists and a few others. I've very much opposed to legalism. It is worse than just Martha trying to get Mary (who Our Lord said had chosen the better in freedom of sitting with Him instead of 'doing'), it is binding burdens and perhaps on those who aren't even regenerate. We can have certain fellowship expectations but that is as far as any of 'our' interference goes. Disfellowship is as much for their good as our own and I agree with it, but we get too naggy more often than not. Such is a "Martha" complex and I'm very much against it. Warn once or twice, Paul says. Do so in encouragement and love. If such doesn't work, ONLY Christ can do something from that point on. It is obvious there is something wrong that He alone must take care of. You can continue to love such a one and even meet with them one-on-one. The problem in that case is how it affects the fellowship. So, as far as nagging and discipline, I'm a minimalist.
Sure, encourage someone and use Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, and etc. If at all, I can encourage you to walk closer to your Savior today, Amen! You are free simply because He has set you free from sin and death. If you have a desire for any of that, which you are freed from, pray and seek Him. Our freedom is for righteousness and being like the One of our complete affection, so I say again, "walk on!" The more time we spend with Him, the more we will be like Him. Reading His word, spending time in prayer, and with His people, will continue to be used by Him to make and mold us into His image. Such would be a GREAT thread to discuss it too! Make one concerning this. This particular thread is about a JW cult mentality and the demands of that cult upon all men as well as the bondage that comes with its legalism. If I'm correct, you are very much against that as well. -Lon
Was addressing you this:
"I will celebrate whatever day I feel like, in Christ. You've no say about it. Galatians 5:1 "
He in NO way said to celebrate whatever (day) you feel like.
In fact He was specific about what was to be celebrated and kept in the future times of trouble..."pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath"...notice He didn't say pray your life is spared or that you embrace man's tradition to spare persecution but that His Father's Law and Will be kept.
Your going off some anti JW tangent indicates hostility not to JW but Him His way...especially if you include accusations I am legalistic or judaizing...
I don't but you do with your "I will celebrate whatever day I feel like, in Christ. You've no say about it. Galatians 5:1 "
The Spirit would never lead one to walk outside "these are they that keep the commandments of Yah and the faith and testimony of Yahushua"
we ARE our brother's keeper...and if you wish to "do what thou whilst" I must "keep" you just as I would expect you to stop me from drinking poison, brother...
celebrating any day you choose is not "in" Him...your yoke does not indicate you are owned by my Master
again your choice...but you can't say you are at liberty to choose any day you feel to celebrate and still wear His yoke...
This is the OP
"In 321 Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referencing the esoteric eastern sun-worship which Aurelian followed the principle of "one god, one empire", that was later adopted to a full extent by Constantine"
And your "I will celebrate whatever day I feel like, in Christ. You've no say about it. Galatians 5:1" makes this the very thread to address...you brought in the JW aspect as I didn't know nor care but address messages not messengers...
I did...even correcting the others who claim as you do your "we be free to do whatever"
in that sense you are typical of others who choose "go along to get along"
Satan has done his best work destroying what is His by counterfeiting it through those who wished to keep the peace and be kind and tolerant.
free from sin? Death? Wow...revealing of your error...we are freed from the consequence the curse of sin...free from eternal death...sin is still all around...and we are all to still die
to be like Him His way is exactly NOT "I will celebrate whatever day I feel like, in Christ. You've no say about it. Galatians 5:1 "
We don't even abuse our secular relationships with "I love you but will go against what you want and do my own thing cuz I love you and I am free"
Actually this thread is about the struggle between what is Yah's and what is man's tradition. And those who think they are at liberty to "do what thou whilst" and not His will His way as He did...
Lon
Well-known member
We don't agree. Romans 14:5 Psalm 118:24 Lamentations 3:22,23
If you are a Jew. Are you a Jew? I'm not. Galatians has some words to you about being Judaized. You stand before your Maker, I'll stand before mine. Romans 14:4
You are. So what? You are one kind of guy, I'm another. We will stand or fall before our Maker. You don't get to judge. 1 Corinthians 2:16
Um "Your" Galatians 5:1 as well. You are a contentious fellow, I'll give you that. Go Judaize somebody else (actually not, it is against Him). I know scriptures better than you do, have walked with Him longer than you have, and am not as in bondage for it as you are. Go learn what this means: Matthew 9:13-17
Which? Those to Jews, or those to you? :noway: Acts 21:25
Good-hearted, wrong-headed. Hosea 4:6 That, and you could go about this a lot more carefully 1 Timothy 5:1
:doh: You JUST called me a brother! You are being double-minded. James 1:8 James 5:12 Matthew 5:37
:doh: Galatians 5:1 Matthew 11:30
Who cares? I've never worshipped the sun, you? For me, it is JUST another day the Lord has made. I WILL rejoice and be glad in it. End of discussion. You are making inane mountains out of mole-hills.
Yes, but you again are caught up in mole-hills. You really don't know which battles are more important than others and show no spiritual discernment. It doesn't mean you are not His, it means you are stuck as a babe in Christ, if you are in Him. I don't care about your milk preoccupations. You are supposed to be walking with the Savior, encouraging others to walk with Him. This ain't it.
1 Corinthians 10:33
"Whatever" isn't in your fears or imaginations, it is in the heart of those who love Him. Mind your own walk. 1 Thessalonians 4:11
Whenever and wherever I can and scripture and the Spirit allows. Even with a guy like you who is contentious over mole-hills. I realize for you, for some odd reason, this is a mountain, but for me, it will never be. It is a molehill and hardly worth our time when one line of scripture address it.
Romans 14:5 It doesn't matter if you disagree. You have your Master and I have mine. Look to your own Master.
Sure, because it is subterfuge so not as clearly seen. Not the case here.
:doh: Romans 8:2!
Incorrect. It is exactly like following Him in His ways. Once you really grasp I mean exactly that, you'll understand the rest. I'm not talking about what you or I do in the flesh. I'm talking about the spirit-man, if either of us are in Christ. THAT man, whatever he does, is walking in the Spirit alone. Everything he does is His. Galatians 5:16
No idea what you mean or where you got the quote. It isn't mine.
If you are a new creation, you WILL do as that new nature desires. EVERYTHING that new nature desires is spiritual. As you walk according to the Spirit, do as you will and ALL that you will. Why? Because that new man is only capable of walking with God. I have absolutely NO advice for you walking and led by the Spirit. He will guide you. Know His word and you'll know His will. That's MORE than enough instruction from me. If I knew you better, I might help with specific troubling areas in your life, but there are no short-cuts to holiness, it comes only through the Savior and ever only has John 15:5
I've purposefully used a lot of scriptures here - More of Him, less of me getting in His way. -Lon
CherubRam
New member
Sunday has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Friday evening to Monday evening is three full days and nights.
Originally the first Christians kept the Sabbath command.
Good point. That's why Noah took seven pairs of clean animals, right?
"You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female" (Genesis 7:2)
"Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar." Genesis 8:20)
jsanford108
New member
Lon is right. You are all over the place CherubRam. You have historical inaccuracies and falsehoods, false conclusions being placed in Scripture (eisegesis), false conclusions from Scripture (exegesis), just generally made up falsehoods, etc.
You go from talking about traditions being pagan, claiming non-pagans don't have traditions (false), to talking about Catholicism, to providing quirky methods for analyzing words with the intention of showing their "evil roots and purpose," to listing words "not originally found" in the Bible.
Which all begs the question: If the Bible is so full of errors, canonized by the Catholic Church (which is evil), and contains words that were added to it, then what is your historico-critical source of truth? If it is not the "error-ridden" Bible, then please, reveal it to us. If you are utilizing the Bible as a source of proof/truth, then you are a hypocrite, full of contradiction; since you claim that it was made canon (the only true fact you provided) by the Catholic Church, which you say is evil, and is full of errors, the Bible must be considered from your position as a source of fiction rather than truth.
You go from talking about traditions being pagan, claiming non-pagans don't have traditions (false), to talking about Catholicism, to providing quirky methods for analyzing words with the intention of showing their "evil roots and purpose," to listing words "not originally found" in the Bible.
Which all begs the question: If the Bible is so full of errors, canonized by the Catholic Church (which is evil), and contains words that were added to it, then what is your historico-critical source of truth? If it is not the "error-ridden" Bible, then please, reveal it to us. If you are utilizing the Bible as a source of proof/truth, then you are a hypocrite, full of contradiction; since you claim that it was made canon (the only true fact you provided) by the Catholic Church, which you say is evil, and is full of errors, the Bible must be considered from your position as a source of fiction rather than truth.