John Calvin said this....
- Thread starter Clete
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j4jesus09
New member
I read and I'm familiar with this view. My problem is if man is placed here on earth and told not to do something then he should be absolutely cool with that. Why would he not? So what, that the serpent said to do something else. Why would man be willing to do it? God told him not to. Why would he or she believe anything else. If people claim something was in Adam that was evil then how can that be. Adam didn't make himself. God did. So ultimately if Adam was the first person and had the capability to not sin he would not have. I mean look at God. To say he has the capabilty to sin or miss the mark would be foolish. God doesn't have a capability to sin. Man was made with the capability to sin which means he WILL sin. God knew what he was doing. He is much greater and wiser.
j4jesus09
New member
My problem is if man is placed here on earth and told not to do something then he should be absolutely cool with that. Why would he not? So what, that the serpent said to do something else. Why would man be willing to do it? God told him not to. Why would he or she believe anything else. If people claim something was in Adam that was evil then how can that be. Adam didn't make himself. God did. So ultimately if Adam was the first person and had the capability to not sin he would not have. I mean look at God. To say he has the capabilty to sin or miss the mark would be foolish. God doesn't have a capability to sin. Man was made with the capability to sin which means he WILL sin. God knew what he was doing. He is much greater and wiser
Mocking You
New member
Shasta
Well-known member
or was it a free choice?
musterion
Well-known member
"You don't understand what you're reading" / "You took that out of context" / "Arminian!" / "Calumny!" in 5...4...3...
Okay, time for a new quote!
(I stay really busy with work and may have over looked a post or two. If there is something I missed that you feel like I should respond to, please just let me know.)
HisServant claims that we all deserve physical death and eternity in Hell. Calvin would have disagreed!!
Calvinism's god does not send people to Hell because they deserve Hell but because he simply, arbitrarily, decreed that they would go to Hell. He decreed that certain people will go to Heaven and others will go to Hell because he wanted to and for NO OTHER REASON.
Resting in Him,
Clete
(I stay really busy with work and may have over looked a post or two. If there is something I missed that you feel like I should respond to, please just let me know.)
HisServant claims that we all deserve physical death and eternity in Hell. Calvin would have disagreed!!
Calvinism's god does not send people to Hell because they deserve Hell but because he simply, arbitrarily, decreed that they would go to Hell. He decreed that certain people will go to Heaven and others will go to Hell because he wanted to and for NO OTHER REASON.
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
Resting in Him,
Clete
My apologies for the rabbit trail, but at least one TOL member has stated the exact same thing in different words. And to throw salt on the wound, she says they deserve it (being created to damn them to hell).
beloved57
Well-known member
Those things are sound and cannot be refuted! The book of Job testifys to those things!
beloved57
Well-known member
Evil speaking against God's Truth!
Saying it doesn't make it so.
This thread is proof that they can be refuted and have been.
Shasta
Well-known member
I believe Augustine's thinking was more influenced by the cult of Manichaeism that he had belonged to for almost ten years than by the classical philosophical systems he had studied. Augustine's issues as a cultist and a philosopher and had always been about the origin of good and evil. Perhaps he wanted to understand why he could not overcome his own personal sins. Manichaeanism explained that good and evil emanated from two equal and opposite metaphysical forces. Just as Augustine himself seemed utterly unable to control his lusts so did mankind appear to be totally corrupt and unable to deliver himself. In certain select men, fragments of the Kingdom of Light remained and strove to transcend the material world of evil.
This is just my impression of the religion. I have not devoted a great deal of time to studying it. Arnobius carries on a rather brilliant debate with the prophet Mani himself, whom he said was dressed in all kinds of colors. Evidently his Persian garb made him seem as strange as his doctrine to the Christians.
It is impossible for me to avoid noticing that the primary assumptions of Manichaeanism - determinism and total depravity (inability) were also guiding principles of Augustine's theology, more so than those issues relating to the divine Being you mentioned. From the standpoint of Manichaeanism the important issues were always mankind's corruption and his total ruin (his inability or "total depravity") These were what made predeterminism necessary.
The similarities between Augustininanism and Calvinism are striking, which is to be expected since one came from the other. Both are a striking departure from what had been taught for the first three hundred years of Christianity.
Shasta
Well-known member
Up until now you have maintained that every evil thing that happens is predestined. Why should the sphere of God's "sovereignty" end at the borders of the Nation of Israel?
beloved57
Well-known member
They have been refuted if one is in unbelief of the Truth! Saying they have been refuted don't make it so!
The problem for you is that the thread is all right here for anyone to read.
beloved57
Well-known member
I don't care who reads it!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Westminister Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism and there we read that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":
If the Calvinists are right then God punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do:
Sir Robert Anderson writes, "As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).
"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
If the Calvinists are right then God punishes men when they do the very things which He designed them to do:
"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil:" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).
Sir Robert Anderson writes, "As the Westminster Divines express it, 'We are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good.' This theology obviously impugns the righteousness of God in punishing men for their sins. In fact, it represents Him as a tyrant who punishes the lame for limping and the blind for losing their way" (Anderson, Misundersood Texts of the New Testament [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1991], 75).
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
What makes you think damnation is punishment?
atrol:
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
The wolves were already there and more entered as soon as Peter and Paul were gone.
Twas a breath of fresh air that came 300 years later.
Philippians 3:18 KJV
18 (For many walk , of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping , that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Acts 20:29 KJV
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.