John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Dartman]

You should try responding the the elements of the post rather than just repeating your own assertions against the words and evidence.

I responded to the relevant points, even though much of your points are "repeating your own assertions".

Scripture tells us he created all things, all things that were created, all things that were made, without him was nothing made that was made, and you seem to think that your flat-out denial is sufficient.

Half of the claims you are making here, you have misunderstood the text.
The other half, you are only quoting the PORTION of the text that fits your "assertions".
Col 1 tells us SPECIFICALLY about Jesus creating ALL "thrones, dominions, powers and principalities" that are NOW.
It is NOT talking about the Creation of the Universe ..... which both OT and NT CLEARLY state was created by Jehovah/YHVH God.
John 1 doesn't talk about Jesus until verse 7... "the light". The ONLY thing John 1 says Jesus created is "the world/cosmos". The "world/cosmos" that "didn't know him". The "civilization/cosmos" to whom Jesus was sent from Nazareth to preach.

 

[musterion]

He also instructs us not to correct His scripture, like you do, bible corrector.

Check.

So, one of your your "arguments," against the Trinity, is that the word is not mentioned.


Fine.Neither is the word "Atheism"(Psalms 14:1 KJV, Psalms 53:1 KJV....), neither is the word "divinity"(Psalms 139 KJV), "incarnation"(John 1:1 KJV, John 1:14 KJV), monotheism(Isaiah 43:10 KJV, Isaiah 44:10 KJV),.....................................but the concepts are.


There are scores of biblical concepts that many believe, not having a specific word describing them used in the Bible. "Bible" is a word, not found in scriptures-"book" is. And? "omniscience," "omnipotence," "omnipresence"-words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God.


Give us a real argument, not a kindergarten routine.

Come to think of it...


Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
I
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Show us your name in the book of life....

Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".

You assert firstborn to mean the “first created.”

1 Samuel 16 KJV
10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The Lord hath not chosen these. 11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither.

1 Samuel 17 KJV
12 Now David was the son of that Ephrathite of Beth-lehem-judah, whose name was Jesse; and he had eight sons: and the man went among men for an old man in the days of Saul. 13 And the three eldest sons of Jesse went and followed Saul to the battle: and the names of his three sons that went to the battle were Eliab the firstborn, and next unto him Abinadab, and the third Shammah. 14 And David was the youngest: and the three eldest followed Saul.

Psalm 89 KJV
Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.

1 I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever:with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever:thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.3 I have made a covenant with my chosen,I have sworn unto David my servant,4 thy seed will I establish for ever,and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. 5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord:thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord?who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints,and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.8 O Lord God of hosts, who is a strong Lord like unto thee?or to thy faithfulness round about thee? 9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. 10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain;thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. 11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine:as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. 12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. 13 Thou hast a mighty arm:strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. 14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. 15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound:they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day:and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength:and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.18 For the Lord is our defence;and the Holy One of Israel is our king. 19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one,and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.20 I have found David my servant;with my holy oil have I anointed him:21 with whom my hand shall be established:mine arm also shall strengthen him.22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.23 And I will beat down his foes before his face,and plague them that hate him.24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him:and in my name shall his horn be exalted.25 I will set his hand also in the sea,and his right hand in the rivers.26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn,higher than the kings of the earth.

David was the last one born in his family, the youngest son of Jesse, and yet the LORD God calls him "my firstborn."

Jeremiah 31 KJV

9 They shall come with weeping,and with supplications will I lead them:I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,wherein they shall not stumble:for I am a father to Israel,and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Ephraim is called the LORD God's “firstborn,” although Manasseh, Ephraim’s older brother, was the “firstborn” per the Exodus context/definition of the first that comes from the womb, whether of man or beast-"biologically."

Genesis 48 KJV
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim’s head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Genesis 48 KJV

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

=primacy, not point of origin

Colossians 1 KJV
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


Paul explains what he means by the phrase “the firstborn of every creature," in v 18.

=indicating that he is the first of a new group “the head the body," which is the boc, so that he may have first place in everything, the first fruits, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,as verse 23 states,"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming."

And thus He is the first one in "rank," who was born in the image of the invisible God of EVERY CREATURE.

That is the context.

John John John.








I got nothin

 

[Dartman]

.. So, one of your your "arguments," against the Trinity, is that the word is not mentioned.

True, but I sure don't consider it a major argument. MUCH more important are the STATMENTS actually MADE in the Scriptures, that contradict the trinity/oneness theories.

Fine.Neither is the word "Atheism"(Psalms 14:1 KJV, Psalms 53:1 KJV....), neither is the word "divinity"(Psalms 139 KJV), "incarnation"(John 1:1 KJV, John 1:14 KJV), monotheism(Isaiah 43:10 KJV, Isaiah 44:10 KJV),.....................................but the concepts are.

1) None of these terms are needed. There are Scriptural terms that work better, and don't have the same Pagan baggage that "divinity" has, much less the pure fiction that is "incarnation"! And NO ... God's words becoming a flesh and blood baby boy is NOT "incarnation" .... it's birth.

There are scores of biblical concepts that many believe, not having a specific word describing them used in the Bible. "Bible" is a word, not found in scriptures-"book" is.

And, "book" works just fine. The word "Bible" isn't a doctrine.

And? "omniscience," "omnipotence," "omnipresence"-words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God.

I don't. The Scriptures are more accurate, and more informative.

... Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
I
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Show us your name in the book of life....

No wonder you are so confused. You can't read with comprehension. NOTHING in these texts indicates we can "SEE" or "SHOW" our names in the book of life. In fact , YOU CAN'T EITHER!

Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".

You assert firstborn to mean the “first created.”

No, I don't. Go back and re-read my post .... you will find it is "CREATURE" that I "assert" means "created". The CONTEXT tells us "firstborn" means "firstborn from the dead";

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[Rosenritter]

I responded to the relevant points, even though much of your points are "repeating your own assertions".

Any assertions have been established through scripture and other sources. You haven't shown why the establishment would be invalid or mistaken, but rather just kept repeating the memorized lines.

Half of the claims you are making here, you have misunderstood the text.
The other half, you are only quoting the PORTION of the text that fits your "assertions".

Prove that you can employ rational analysis. So far you're been repeating your mantra "God created the heavens and the earth" as if you don't realize that isn't a refutation that Jesus is our God.

Col 1 tells us SPECIFICALLY about Jesus creating ALL "thrones, dominions, powers and principalities" that are NOW.

No, it doesn't. Where is there any form of limitation in this passage?

Colossians 1:16 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

More over the author says that ALL THINGS CREATED were created by him. That's not a limitation excluding the physical world and its creatures, a physical creation which is also backed by John with an introduction paralleling Genesis 1:1 And Paul doesn't limited that to the earth, but includes the invisible powers of heaven, as in the created angels, as they are also among those things that were made.

It is NOT talking about the Creation of the Universe ..... which both OT and NT CLEARLY state was created by Jehovah/YHVH God.

It is sad that you don't realize how that response does NOT hit the target. You're forgetting what you are disputing is that Jesus is Jehovah / YHVH God. You haven't refuted anything.

John 1 doesn't talk about Jesus until verse 7... "the light". The ONLY thing John 1 says Jesus created is "the world/cosmos". The "world/cosmos" that "didn't know him". The "civilization/cosmos" to whom Jesus was sent from Nazareth to preach.

Seeing that John defines "the Word" as He who came into the world and was made flesh, he is talking about Jesus from verse 1. That's a "plain as day" reading, that 999 our of 1000 easily recognize. It's the proverbial 1 out of 1000 that work so hard to deny what the words clearly say.

John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:10 KJV(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:14 KJV
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You would essentially have to argue that John was an entirely incompetent writer who was making up some random stuff to deny the obvious. Use some basic math here following John's narrative:

1. The Word was God,
2. the Word created everything that was made,
3. He (the Word) that created everything that was made was in the world and they knew him not,
4. the Word that created all things was in the world and was made flesh.

So why don't you just say that you refuse to believe anything written by John or Paul and get it over with? It would be less hassle. (I say this because I actually HAVE heard that as a defense from someone who maintained your like position... and they also excluded Peter.)

Besides this, maybe you don't realize how flimsy your argument is that "world" doesn't really mean 'WORLD." "Cosmos" or whatever, God created the Cosmos and everything that is in it, and John tells us that God is properly called by his first name, Jesus.

John 1:10 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Acts 17:24 KJV
(24) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Romans 1:20 KJV
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Same "cosmos" is used here, also quite clearly speaking of the creation of the world, heaven and earth.

 

[Apple7]

The trinity is a ludicrous mishmash of Greek Philosphy and a tiny handful of verses that merely are worded so the trinity MIGHT fit .... if you ignore the context, and the rest of the Scriptures.

Moses wrote about, and worshiped, a Triune Creator.

NO ONE can define the trinity, since it defies Scripture, God's Creation, is pure fiction, and it contradicts itself.
Your remark is like saying "how can you deny the Star wars FORCE, since you can't define it"!

Define what you think The Trinity is...or...are you against something that does not exist...?

I agree with the God of Scripture, and the Jesus of Scripture ..... and the trinty is NEVER stated, explained or preached to ANY audience in the Scriptures.
He defines Himself. He instructs us to read His words, and to look at His Creation. The trinity isn't mentioned in the Scriptures, and contradicts both the Scriptures, and God's Creation.

As spoken by a scripture illiterate...

Col 1:15 STATES that Jesus is "the firstborn of every .... CREATURE". Creature is translated from the Greek Ktisis, meaning "thing created".

ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως


Col 1.15 expresses subordination. The genitive substantive specifies that which is subordinated to, or under, the dominion of the head substantive. In this case, the creation is subordinate to Jesus.

Adding context, (Col 1.9 – 20), clearly and irrefutably demonstrates Jesus’ deity.

Further, Col 1.15 – 20 is a hymn…and, as we all know, hymns are sung to deity, not mortals.

 

[john w]

True, but I sure don't consider it a major argument. MUCH more important are the STATMENTS actually MADE in the Scriptures, that contradict the trinity/oneness theories.

Then drop the argument.


Yes, you're a deceitful fraud.

1) None of these terms are needed. There are Scriptural terms that work better, and don't have the same Pagan baggage that "divinity" has, much less the pure fiction that is "incarnation"! And NO ... God's words becoming a flesh and blood baby boy is NOT "incarnation" .... it's birth.

Fine. If I can show you, where you employed non scriptural terms, will you admit that you are a liar, and a hypocrite, and take your satanic toys, and leave TOL Dodge?


Well, will you, punk? Want to "call my hand?"

And, "book" works just fine. The word "Bible" isn't a doctrine.

No, you argued that the word "Trinity" "is not mentioned" in scripture.

So, have you, do you, use the term, "bible?"

Well, punk?

Be careful..

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

I don't disagree with any specific statement there above, but I suspect that your idea of "simple and clear" meaning of John 1:18 may differ from my "simple and clear" meaning of John 1:18.
John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
According to Exodus, Moses did see God in more than one fashion. Both "face to face, as one would speak to a friend" and "the glory of the LORD" as in "and thou shalt see my back parts." Additionally we have Abraham who received the LORD and his angels and served them food and drink and washed their feet. So what does Jesus mean when he says that no man has seen God at any time?

I appreciate your assessment. I believe that it was an Angel that represented Yahweh who appeared to Moses and Abraham. Thus the statement that no man has seen or can see God is true, and the statement in John 1:18 from my perspective is simple and clear. The word Elohim usually translated God in some contexts is referring to Angels or Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your assessment. I believe that it was an Angel that represented Yahweh who appeared to Moses and Abraham. Thus the statement that no man has seen or can see God is true, and the statement in John 1:18 from my perspective is simple and clear. The word Elohim usually translated God in some contexts is referring to Angels or Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

Malek Yahweh is Worshiped

And they came to the place which God had said to him. And Abraham built there the altar, and arranged the wood. And he bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on the wood. And Abraham put out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. And Malek Yahweh called to him from the heavens and said, Abraham! Abraham! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not lay your hand on the boy, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you are a God-fearer, and you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked. And behold! A ram behind him was entangled in a thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Yahweh Will See; so that it is said until this day, In the mount of Yahweh it will be seen. (Gen 22.9 -14)


Here we have the classic story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God.

But, as we can easily see, the sacrifice is to Malek Yahweh.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Mary is not mentioned as being Jesus' 'mother' in any of those passages.

I am still surprised at your intransigence on this aspect, and cannot understand your thinking or reasoning on this.

I will repeat what I stated in an earlier post:
Mary was the mother of Jesus Luke 1:30-35. I question what obscure differentiation that you are suggesting. What is your view when the following clearly states that Mary is the mother of Jesus?
Matthew 1:18 (KJV): Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 2:11–14 (KJV): 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Now the above is the inspired record, hence Mary is the mother of Jesus.

Further, Its the 'Power' of the Most High....NOT the 'Power' of the Holy Spirit...as the Holy Spirit IS The 'Power'.

I accept this clarification, but we may differ as I believe that there is One God, and that the Holy Spirit is God the Father’s power whereby he accomplishes such things as the conception of Jesus.

Learn the Trinity.

It seems that even you have your own unique view of the Trinity by suggesting that Mary is not the mother of Jesus. Perhaps this is the deduction you made as a result of one of the many contradictions that arise from the Trinity. I believe that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, I am still surprised at your intransigence on this aspect, and cannot understand your thinking or reasoning on this.

I will repeat what I stated in an earlier post:
Mary was the mother of Jesus Luke 1:30-35. I question what obscure differentiation that you are suggesting. What is your view when the following clearly states that Mary is the mother of Jesus?
Matthew 1:18 (KJV): Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 2:11–14 (KJV): 11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. 12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way. 13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. 14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Now the above is the inspired record, hence Mary is the mother of Jesus.
I accept this clarification, but we may differ as I believe that there is One God, and that the Holy Spirit is God the Father’s power whereby he accomplishes such things as the conception of Jesus.It seems that even you have your own unique view of the Trinity by suggesting that Mary is not the mother of Jesus. Perhaps this is the deduction you made as a result of one of the many contradictions that arise from the Trinity. I believe that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus NEVER refers to Mary as His 'mother' in scripture.

The challenge still stands for YOU to show that He did.

Stop reading your own cultic views into scripture...and learn what The Trinity is BEFORE rejecting your own strawman...

 

[Dartman]

... Where is there any form of limitation in this passage?

Colossians 1:16 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I highlighted in red the limiting portions of the text. Paul is discussing CURRENT things.... not the creation of the universe, he specified "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers", which limits "all things" to these categories.
Paul knew FULL WELL that Jehovah/YHVH, Christ's GOD, is the creator, and Christ is "that man" Jehovah/YHVH God resurrected;
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

what you are disputing is that Jesus is Jehovah / YHVH God.

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God, Jehovah said He will put the words in Jesus' mouth, Jesus said the words he spoke were NOT his words. The preposterous claim that Jesus IS Jehovah creates an impossible situation, since I believe we would both agree, Jesus didn't lie.

Deut. 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

John 12:49,50For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

there is NO WAY around it, the Father is Jehovah..... not Jesus.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Jesus NEVER refers to Mary as His 'mother' in scripture. The challenge still stands for YOU to show that He did. Stop reading your own cultic views into scripture...and learn what The Trinity is BEFORE rejecting your own strawman…

This is hardly worth a comment. Mary was the mother of Jesus as the Scriptures that I quoted clearly state. Also you seem to have altered the details of the "challenge". If this is what your version of the Trinity claims that Mary is not the mother of Jesus, or if this is what the Trinity teaches, then the clear testimony and truth of the Scriptures overthrows the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your assessment. I believe that it was an Angel that represented Yahweh who appeared to Moses and Abraham. Thus the statement that no man has seen or can see God is true, and the statement in John 1:18 from my perspective is simple and clear. The word Elohim usually translated God in some contexts is referring to Angels or Judges.

Kind regards
Trevor

1. Genesis 18, "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre..."

2. Exodus 33:11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

Both passages use the name of God (rendered LORD in the King James) rather than what is sometimes considered an indirect work like elohim.

Exodus 33:21-23 KJV
(21) And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
(22) And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
(23) And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

3. Why would a non-God angel only representing God call itself the LORD (Jehovah) and continue with the conversation in this fashion in verses 21-23? Paul speaks about the worship of angels not in a positive way, but here Moses desired to see the face of this one called the LORD. Why, if it was merely a messenger?

4. And if this was only through a proxy messenger, why would this messenger speak as the LORD concerning Moses like this in Numbers?

Numbers 12:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
(7) My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
(8) With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

That doesn't sound as if he speaks to Moses by proxy, when he says Moses is special from among all of them, that he speaks mouth to mouth. Speaking by a proxy isn't usually called mouth to mouth, is it?.

Those are some of the problems that seem arise considering Abraham and Moses. I have another suggestion... perhaps to "see" the LORD means to see in full glory, as in his fullness that could only be comprehended by those who are made of pure Spirit (such as God and his angels). Wouldn't that satisfy all of those conditions and problems? and perhaps a bit more simply?

 

[Rosenritter]

I highlighted in red the limiting portions of the text. Paul is discussing CURRENT things.... not the creation of the universe, he specified "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers", which limits "all things" to these categories.

Can you explain to me how all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth... is a limitation of any sort? You marked that red. Do you believe in some sort of fourth dimension that doesn't count as heaven or earth?

Furthermore, how is "whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." how is that a limitation? The words "whether they be" are words that especially state that even these are NOT limitations.

I don't understand how you can read these English words and come out of it with the opposite meaning.

Paul knew FULL WELL that Jehovah/YHVH, Christ's GOD, is the creator, and Christ is "that man" Jehovah/YHVH God resurrected;
Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

The problem with your assertion is that Jesus did come in the form of a man. It's only natural to refer to the Jesus in that form when making that introduction at Mars Hill. That does nothing to subvert the fact that Paul also referred to Jesus as God, even substituting the name of Jesus in place of "LORD" when he quoted scripture.

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God, Jehovah said He will put the words in Jesus' mouth, Jesus said the words he spoke were NOT his words. The preposterous claim that Jesus IS Jehovah creates an impossible situation, since I believe we would both agree, Jesus didn't lie.

Jesus said that the words he spoke were not simply "of himself" but that his words were God's words. Again, you've taken a statement of divinity that the Jews themselves interpreted as blasphemy and are acting as if it said the complete opposite.

Regardless, even if you did have prior confusion before, if you were really listening to Jesus's words then you would also listen when he identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last in Revelation, the identifying phrase used for the LORD as the one true God in Isaiah. There's no other reason to use that term of identification other than for identification. So, I don't think you're listening.

Deut. 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

God and Jesus are known for speaking in parables and in prophesies that are difficult to be understood except with hindsight. Is there a reason why you ignore his direct words when he identifies himself at the end of the book?

John 12:49,50

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

there is NO WAY around it, the Father is Jehovah..... not Jesus.[/QUOTE]

Except that those statements still make perfect sense and even better more literal sense if Jesus was God in the flesh. What if Jesus had said the opposite of those words?

1) I have spoken of myself, not the Father?
2) The word which ye hear is mine, not the Father's?

If only Jesus had said the opposite, then you would have something to support your claim that Jesus was not Jehovah in the flesh. All of your reasoning so far has been entirely backwards.

Do you really care about accepting what Jesus says? I don't believe it, but I'll try once more:

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

God had a reason for hiding future events within prophecy, He also had a reason for not declaring himself in full power and glory with legions of angels because He intended to go to the cross. It is after he has risen that there is no need for concealing his identity any further, thus the gospel of John and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are outward and more direct than the previous New Testament. This is where the statements are the plainest and the clearest.

But these plainest and clearest statements are the ones that you reject and ignore. Yes, we could establish the same from Isaiah and Zechariah and the Psalms, but if you won't listen to the words of Jesus when they are direct and straight and plain, why would you hear Moses and the prophets?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

1. Genesis 18, "And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre..."
2. Exodus 33:11 "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Both passages use the name of God (rendered LORD in the King James) rather than what is sometimes considered an indirect work like elohim.

I appreciate your response, but perhaps you may also like to state who you believe actually appeared to Abraham in the first Scripture that you quoted.
Genesis 18:1–3 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

I will give my assessment. Please note that Abraham saw “three men”, and he addresses one of them as “My Lord”. I suggest of the three, one was thus more prominent than the other two, and the narrative confirms this, as in the progress of the narrative two angels go to Sodom, and the third bears the title or Name “Yahweh” and Abraham stands before Him. Also there are two Beings described as Yahweh in the following, and you may like to also mention who are these two with the Name “Yahweh”?:
Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV): 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

My explanation is that this is most probably an Arch Angel, possibly Michael and as God the Father’s representative, he bears the Name of Yahweh, God the Father. He is mentioned again in the following:
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

So I will leave the rest of your Post until we discuss the above. Possibly you may like to state who the person is, described above.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Rosenritter]

Greetings again Rosenritter, I appreciate your response, but perhaps you may also like to state who you believe actually appeared to Abraham in the first Scripture that you quoted.
Genesis 18:1–3 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

I will give my assessment. Please note that Abraham saw “three men”, and he addresses one of them as “My Lord”. I suggest of the three, one was thus more prominent than the other two, and the narrative confirms this, as in the progress of the narrative two angels go to Sodom, and the third bears the title or Name “Yahweh” and Abraham stands before Him. Also there are two Beings described as Yahweh in the following, and you may like to also mention who are these two with the Name “Yahweh”?:
Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV): 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

My explanation is that this is most probably an Arch Angel, possibly Michael and as God the Father’s representative, he bears the Name of Yahweh, God the Father. He is mentioned again in the following:
Exodus 23:20–21 (KJV): 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

So I will leave the rest of your Post until we discuss the above. Possibly you may like to state who the person is, described above.

Kind regards
Trevor

Kudos for exercising the self control to keep the subject short. I try for that and keep falling short.

Genesis 18

I would state that the LORD himself and two of his angels appeared to Abraham, these are the "three men" that Abraham serves with food and drink and water for their feet. The LORD (manifest in the flesh) stayed to talk with Abraham, and two angels (manifest in the flesh) left... and appear in Sodom at Lot's door.

Genesis 19

I have never seen two beings called LORD in Genesis 19, and the only time I have heard someone suggest such a thing was in Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" in his series of proofs from the Old Testament that Jesus was the LORD of Hosts. It did sound silly to me then, but now you (a second person) somehow got a similar impression and you're not in bad company with Justin.

There are not two beings there in Genesis 19 and that's not the normal natural reading. For sake of argument, let me substitute someone else for the LORD in this case. I'll pick a generic comic-book X-man. So X-man is standing before Abraham, and down rains fire from the X-man from heaven upon Sodom. Nothing more is implied here than the ability to rain destruction from above while speaking with feet on the ground. This doesn't seem implausible from the X-man perspective, and God has far more power at his disposal than the Marvel Megaverse. I'm not sure why the "two person" interpretation came into play here.

Taking this a step further, even if one were suppose that one had to physically be in heaven (like above in the atmosphere) to rain down fire from that atmosphere, God is big enough to be in more than one place at a time. I have a tiny daughter, and I can talk to her directly to her face and bring my hand about to tap her on the back all at once... even toss a soft ball into the air to land on her head "from the ceiling" without any weirdness. There's no reason for there to be more than one "YHWH" for the LORD to talk to Abraham and bring down fire from heaven at the same time. Think of his "body" (being) as being so vast that it covers the entire universe, including the earth. He can touch more than one place at a time.

Exodus 23

I mentioned Justin Martyr earlier; I agree with his interpretation. The word "angel" means one who brings the message of God and it can include God himself, his created angelic servants, or even men that are in his service. In this specific case the Angel is Joshua the Son of Nun, formerly called Oshea until Moses specifically changed his name in Numbers 13:16. Joshua was the messenger of God (the Angel) who went before him to lead them into the promise of the Covenant, but unlike that Greater Covenant which he foreshadowed, he would NOT forgive their transgressions. Why did God say "my name is in him?"

Because the new name was Joshua (pronounced "Jesus" in the Greek). Justin maintained that when the LORD said "my name is in him" this was literal, the name of God concealed in the Law to be later revealed. "My name is in him" meant His name was Jesus. Are we to think that Moses changed Oshea to Joshua (Jesus) randomly? Or does this change imply that it was for a reason?

I would say that "my name is in him" has a double meaning. The first that "my authority is placed in him" and the second being that which is seen in hindsight, "and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for he shall save his people from their sins." The first Angel (Joshua the Son of Nun) had been given the name but would not forgive their transgressions, the second Jesus shall save his people from their sins." It's a bit too clean of a parallel to be accidental, I think.

 

[Dartman]

Can you explain to me how all things created that are in heaven and that are in earth... is a limitation of any sort?

Furthermore, how is "whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." how is that a limitation?

These are the categories that define "everything" that Jesus created.

The words "whether they be" are words that especially state that even these are NOT limitations.

Only in the sense that"all things" isn't limited to one of those categories.
If I state; He made everything! Whether it was the main dish, the desert, the salad or the punch. Do you get a clue what context "everything" is?

Another question for you; Jesus told us repeatedly, and Paul tells us repeatedly, God is in heaven. You think "everything in heaven" includes God?

 

[Rosenritter]

These are the categories that define "everything" that Jesus created.
Only in the sense that"all things" isn't limited to one of those categories.
If I state; He made everything! Whether it was the main dish, the desert, the salad or the punch. Do you get a clue what context "everything" is?

Another question for you; Jesus told us repeatedly, and Paul tells us repeatedly, God is in heaven. You think "everything in heaven" includes God?

Colossians 1:16 KJV
(16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

No, "whether they be" is not a definition of limitation, it is an inclusion of even those things that are less tangible. That far-reaching of yours has gotten a bit absurd as it fights tooth and nail against the text and context. This isn't USC Title 26. It's common language.

Paul says that ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM (Col 1:16) and John says that ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM (John 1:3) and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

Monkeying about to try to twist a specific word backwards isn't going to change that John and Paul are both in agreement on this and state such in almost identical language.

So you're trying a sophistry word trick now to try to make the language null by implying that it concludes that God is created? Read the language again, gospel of John fight chapter, "without him was not any thing made that was made." Jesus is the Word, the Word was God, God is the maker, not the made. It is obvious to most people possessing human intelligence that "all things were made by him" (Paul in Colossians) applies only to those things that were made.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rosenritter,

Kudos for exercising the self control to keep the subject short. I try for that and keep falling short.
Genesis 18
I would state that the LORD himself and two of his angels appeared to Abraham, these are the "three men" that Abraham serves with food and drink and water for their feet. The LORD (manifest in the flesh) stayed to talk with Abraham, and two angels (manifest in the flesh) left... and appear in Sodom at Lot's door.

I have a different perspective, partly based on how I understand John 1:18, and partly on the view that I firmly hold that there is only One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. John 1:18 clearly states that “No man has seen God at any time”, and as I understand that Yahweh is the One God and this One God is God the Father, then Genesis 18 cannot be God the Father.

I also consider that the following is saying the same as John 1:18, that no man has not seen God, and also that God dwells in heaven:
1 Timothy 6:13–16 (KJV): 13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Genesis 19
I have never seen two beings called LORD in Genesis 19, and the only time I have heard someone suggest such a thing was in Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" in his series of proofs from the Old Testament that Jesus was the LORD of Hosts. It did sound silly to me then, but now you (a second person) somehow got a similar impression and you're not in bad company with Justin.

I understand this to teach that the Name-bearing Angel called upon Yahweh, God the Father to destroy Sodom by fire. I do not believe that the Angel is Jesus here, so I disagree with Justin. Apple7 may agree with Justin here, but his reasoning on Malak Yahweh is difficult to follow, as he hides behind his supposed language skills.

Exodus 23
The word "angel" means one who brings the message of God and it can include God himself, his created angelic servants, or even men that are in his service. In this specific case the Angel is Joshua the Son of Nun, formerly called Oshea until Moses specifically changed his name in Numbers 13:16.

I believe that the Angel in Exodus 23 is an Arch Angel and thus an Angel who stood in the presence of Yahweh. The events and concepts of Exodus 33 speak about the presence of Yahweh compared with simply an Angel going before them. I understand the difference here being an ordinary Angel compared with an Arch Angel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7, This is hardly worth a comment. Mary was the mother of Jesus as the Scriptures that I quoted clearly state. Also you seem to have altered the details of the "challenge". If this is what your version of the Trinity claims that Mary is not the mother of Jesus, or if this is what the Trinity teaches, then the clear testimony and truth of the Scriptures overthrows the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor

Fact: Jesus NEVER mentioned Mary as being His 'mother'.

Fact: Mary was NEVER part of The Trinity.


No wonder you are so confused, Trevor...