John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Apple7]

:guitar:

 

[NWL]

Satan's 'power' refers to his demons.

If Satan was present, then he would do things in person.

The fact that there is absolutely ZERO mention of Satan possessing anyone after The Cross, and Satan is NEVER mentioned as being present, in person, at any event, clearly informs the reader that he was rendered impotent at The Cross.

Inferring something does not make you correct and is not evidence, show it. Show me where in Rev 13 is expresses that Satan's "power" refers to his demons. If you can't show it it's nothing more than an assumption.

No mention of power being given away in that passage.

In fact, all you have provided is that Yahweh took on form in front of Moses.

No mention of power being given away in that passage.

No, there is no literal wording of "God gave his power to men to prophecy" or "Demons gave their power to men so they could turn a stick into a snake", but it doesn't take a genius to work out theses are powers of both God and Demons and not of Men. If then scripture expresses God has enabled men to prophecy, and magic practicing priest to turn sticks into snakes then it goes without saying God and the demons have given men (in the verse I showed) the power to prophesy and other abilites.

Are you saying the magic practicing men in Egypt under pharaoh (Exo 7:11) who turned a stick into a snake and water into blood were not empowered by the Demons(gods) of Egypt and that God did not empower Men with his spirit to prophecy?

Why is Satan NOT there in person?

In where, Rev 13? Where does it state he is NOT there for you to ask "Why is Satan NOT there in person?"

All the verses you've showed so far have only expressed the Dragon give its power to another beast, it makes no mention of him being or NOT being anywhere. Again, you're reading thoughts into scripture.

 

[NWL]

Do you care to tell us what translation you are using there Bowman, when you quote that verse?

The one being restrained in the verse is not Satan, but lawless men speaking false doctrines, this is ever so clear when reading the chapter and by its context. Moreover, the ones doing the restraining are the apostles, not Jesus, they themselves made this known (See Acts 20:29).

The Greek is in the singular, not plural.

So? The verse still isn't speaking about Satan. Learn how to deal with being wrong next time instead of deflecting by bringing out the insignificant.

And this is coming from the man who translate scripture himself picking the translated definition that best suit his assumed beliefs.

Is this your very best rebuttal?

My previous response clearly wasn't a rebuttal but me telling you to man up and deal with my reasoning rather than pointing out the insignificant. You couldn't even initially tell me the translation you were using and here you're trying to accuse me of giving a bad rebuttal when I clearly didn't even try due to YOUR lack of effort.

So any reader can fully understand, apple7's(Bowman) initial claim here was that Satan was "the lawless" one and that Jesus was the "one restraining him". A simple read of (2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 and cross comparison of scripture points the apostles to be the ones restraining, not Satan, but the lawless human man(men) of that time period.

 

[NWL]

And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out (aorist, completed action), the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world, was cast out(aorist, completed action) onto the earth, and his angels were cast out(aorist, completed action) with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down(aorist, completed action), the one accusing them before our God day and night. (Rev 12.7 - 10)

A simple reading of this passage from Rev 12 clearly informs the reader that the war in Heaven occurred between Michael and his angels & Satan and his angels – but, it was Jesus (God) that cast Satan from Heaven.

Thus....once again, context utterly destroys your JW cult credo that Jesus is Michael!

Nope, still no mention of who throws down Satan from heaven despite your claim that it was God who did it. I have no issue who threw Satan down from heaven, but again, you inferring it was God does not magically change scripture to show it was God, nor that Michael isn't Jesus.

Try and keep on topic Bowman, this has nothing to do with whether or not Satan was the one bound at the cross of reveals who the "thoes" in in 2 Cor 4:4. I do not want to reply to even more post about not relevant topics, on top of the already 10-12 post you have recently been replying with.

Good lad.

 

[NWL]

Good, now show me where Hebrews 2 states that Jesus bound Satan there an then? I get it, Jesus death enables mankind to be set free as it gives Jesus the power of Satan who has the power over death, just show me where it shows the now enabled Jesus invoking this power onto Satan..

No transfer of power occurred at The Cross.

When did I state that I understand your position or the idea that there was a transfer of power at the cross?

I stated "I get it, Jesus death enables mankind to be set free as it gives Jesus the power of Satan who has the power over death". I was conveying my idea's in English and not making a claim to the Anc Greek language and was not paraphrasing or quoting you or the texts. Jesus blood is what free's us from death,the verse states that Satan is the one having means to cause death. Thus Jesus death (the giving of his body and blood) is what gives him the power to make Satan idle.

Synonyms of power in English: authority, right, authorization, warrant, licence, prerogative, faculty

Also, you failed to state where exactly in Hebrews 2 Satan was bound as I asked and you claimed?

 

[NWL]

Jesus' blood ransomed us from Adam?

No.

A 'ransom' is a transaction between parties, in which payment is made by one party to the other for the release of prisoners.

So...according to your reasoning, Jesus paid a blood ransom to Adam, so that Adam could then release his prisoners that he held captive!

No, sparkie....not very impressed with that lack-luster reply of yours...

Where did I state in my response that Jesus paid to the ransom to Adam?

I'll tell you exactly what I believe on the matter. Adam was made and was without sin, Adam then sinned and thus would die, Adam bore children -by means of Eve- and thus we as his children inherited sin and death because of Adam.

As you said Jesus was a ransom, this is according to 1 Tim 2:6.

HELPS word studies: antílytron (from 473 /antí, "corresponding to, instead of/exchange" and 3083 /lýtron, "ransom-price") – properly, a full ransom, referring to Christ paying the complete purchase-price to secure our freedom (redemption)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:ἀντίλυτρον, ἀντιλυτρου, τό, what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom: 1 Timothy 2:6. (An uncertain translator in Psalm 48:9 (); the Orphica lith. 587; (cf. Winer's Grammar, 25).)

1 Corinthians 15:21 states "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man". Death came through Adam, because we all sin we are deserving of death (Rom 6:23), instead of animal blood sacrifices of the mosaic Law we have Jesus, the sacrificial lamb (1 Peter 1:19). Jesus, who was a perfect and unblemished man acts as as a sin offering to God in exchange to the inherited sin we gained from Adam. This enables mankind to receive the gift of life by means of a resurrection as Jesus ransom blots out the sin and death Adam gave to us (Rom 6:23).

 

[NWL]

Jesus rendered The Devil entirely idle ‘katargēsē’ (completed action) at His death upon The Cross. Heb 2.14


Jesus stripped The Devil of authority ‘apekdysamenos’ (completed action) and separated him from his demons, at The Cross. Col 2.15


The Devil was exposed in disgrace ‘edeigmatisen’ (completed action) and was led as a prisoner in a triumphant procession ‘thriambeusas’ (completed action) Col 2.15

Bowman all you keep doing is repeating yourself, where does it state Jesus made Satan idle then and there, I've repeated this question numerous times and you've failed time and time again. ALl you keep spewing is the same thing over and over.

Just because the word katargēsē is used it does not change context to mean that the said action being spoken of will be completed at that very moment. 1 Corinthians 15:24 has the same usage (katargēsē) yet the action being spoken of in the verse, to this day, has not been completed. No one would argue that in 1 Cor 15:24 that Jesus has already handed all things to the Father so that he can be all things to everyone because the word katargēsē (action completed) was used.

Your argument again is not consistent. If therefore the usage of katargēsē does not demand the action being referred to in a verses context, as in 1 Cor 15:24, is completed then and there when the text was written, then the usage of katargēsē at Hebrews 2:14 does not demand that Jesus made Satan idle then and there at the cross, its simply a reference that he will.

Therefore, it is up to you, apple7, to show where in Hebrews 2 it states Jesus made Satan idle at his death on the cross. As far as I has seen so far in Hebrews 2 is through Jesus death he might bring to nothing Satan, the one having the means to cause death, it mentions nowhere that he actually brought Satan to nothing.

 

[NWL]

You never were one for considering context, as it always disagrees with your cult theology.

Your understanding of the topic at hand is the unorthodox and cult like here. JW teaching regarding when Satan is bound is more or less the same as that of orthodox Christianity, don't kid yourself.

You look; but you cannot see.

Your very own text states that Satan was here - but then left. He is no longer on the playing field. He is bound. I highlighted it in red (Mat 13.25) so that you can't ignore it anymore.

I also highlighted Mat 13.41 showing that Jesus is removing people from His Kingdom, the earth.

The playing field is the earth.

We are presently in the 1K period reigning with Jesus.

The Greek term utilized here is 'apēlthen', and is described in the lexicons as departing in an absolute manner.

The parable aptly describes Satan's departure as absolute in nature...i.e. he is bound.

Elvis has left the building.

And look at what the parable informs the reader...Satan sowed tares (plural) demons...as opposed to what Jesus sowed, good seed (singular).

See the difference?


Again....

The parable is unmistakable, and solidifies my position that Satan is presently bound, and that his demons have been left behind to intermingle with mankind until the end.

Pretty simple.

Firstly you're ignoring my questions; Can "apēlthen" be applied to someone to simply mean they left the location? Why can the term simply not mean Satan "went away" or 'left from spreading weeds among the wheat' as it reads and so many translators agree?

No where in scripture does "went away" mean "bound".So your claim that Satan was bound after he spread weeds in among the wheat since the verse states he "went away" is again an assumption.

Satan left behind his bad seed, the demons.

Show us where scripture states the "weeds" are Satan's demons?

Show us where demons are ever called "sons of the devil/satan/wicked one"?

Jesus states that evil men are the the Sons of Satan since he calls Satan their Father, nowhere in scripture are demons ever referred to as "sons of Satan" or that Satan is their Father, once again you fault is in your assumptions, stop assuming things and reading your idea's into scripture. Scripture supports my idea that of mainstream Christianity that the weeds are evil and wicked men.

(John 8:43, 44) "..Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.."

 

[NWL]

Show us exactly where is states "Satan is not present himself in the world but, instead, his presentment is in his demons" as you just boldly claimed, where does it read so, she me the very words please.

The verse literally says that Satan "HIMSELF" transforms into an angel of light, are you saying that this verse is wrong, and at the time it was written Satan was not transforming himself into an angel of light, despite the verse saying the opposite. Confirm for us please.

Do you EVER consider CONTEXT?

The very next verse uses the same Greek term, and applies it to the servants of Satan as the ones acting upon the evil deeds!

I do consider context it is clear you do not, nor do you read or understand my post as we have already been over this Bowman! Here are the verses again, show me exactly where it mentions Demons in 2 Cor 11. Are you saying that where it reads "his ministers" in v14 that this is referring to Demons?

(2 Corinthians 11:12-16) "..But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. 16 I say again: Let no one think I am unreasonable. But even if you do, then accept me as an unreasonable person, so that I too may boast a little.."

I can see how the context states there will be false apostles (pseudapostolos and apostolous), a term only ever applied to men (apostolous) but nowhere does it states that these ones are demons, maybe you could show me where exactly its states as such. If you can't its nothing more than another one of your assumptions.

As already stated, Satan is most assuredly bound today, but he is unable to do anything in person...he can only remote control his demons.

And yet you've been unable to demonstrate this once, nor can you even show that Satan was bound at the cross.

 

[NWL]

A review of the obvious…

And I saw a Messenger coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. (Rev 20.1 – 3)

Here we have a ‘Messenger’ with the power to bind Satan.

Only God has the power to bind Satan.

As further proof that the Messenger described in Rev 20 is Jesus, we have previous scripture using the same exact verbiage, describing a ‘Messenger’ with the following attributes…

And I saw another strong Messenger coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire. And he had in his hand a little scroll having been opened. And he placed his right foot on the sea, and the left on the land, and cried with a great voice, as a lion roars. And when he cried, the seven thunders spoke their sounds. (Rev 10.1 – 3)

Any student of scripture will readily recognize that this passage comes from Ezekiel, as thus…


And from above the expanse that was over their heads was an appearance like a stone of lapis lazuli azure blue, the likeness of a throne. And on the likeness of the throne was a likeness in appearance like a man on it from above. And I saw Him, like the color of polished bronze, looking like fire within it all around. From the appearance of His loins and upward, and from the appearance of His loins and downward, I saw Him looking like fire; and brightness to it all around. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of the rain, so appeared the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And I saw, and I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. (Eze 1.26 – 28)

Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh!

Thus…it becomes obvious that the Messenger described in both Rev 10 and Rev 20 is indeed The Son, Jesus.

Jesus, as God, bound Satan, and the binding occurred at The Cross.


Simple Biblical truth.

Lol. Show us the verse that states only God has the power to bind Satan? Another one of your assumptions it would seem.

 

[NWL]

You evaded the point, if Satan fallen angels can be referred to as gods why is Satan, the ruler of the wicked, not able to be referred to as a god? Posing a pony "challenge" won't hide your subtle deflection.

Already answered.

Your examples use a completely different word, in another language, that has a large breadth of meaning.

You are unable to show that Theos applies to Satan in ANY NT scripture.

You have failed.

The challenge still remains for you to show that Yahweh is applied to anyone but Yahweh.

Show us according to the LXX.

 

[NWL]

Most translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as God in Psalm 8.5.

Again, your rebuttal fails to impress.

From what I've found its about 50/50, it typically either God or Angels in Psalms 8:5 and that's exactly my point.

What can you do now?

I can ask you to answer another one of my reasoning that you've evaded?

I quote from my last post: "You evaded the point, if Satan fallen angels can be referred to as gods why is Satan, the ruler of the wicked, not able to be referred to as a god? Posing a pony "challenge" won't hide your subtle deflection."

 

[way 2 go]

Please show us where Satan is mentioned as being PRESENT during the hindering.

Good luck...

The law of the excluded middle: Either P or non-P. :
statement is either true or not true

statement is either true or not true : "Satan hindered us"

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

are you saying the statement "Satan hindered us" is a lie ?

 

[Apple7]

From what I've found its about 50/50, it typically either God or Angels in Psalms 8:5 and that's exactly my point.

Its 2/3 in favor of my position, not yours.

I can ask you to answer another one of my reasoning that you've evaded?

I quote from my last post: "You evaded the point, if Satan fallen angels can be referred to as gods why is Satan, the ruler of the wicked, not able to be referred to as a god? Posing a pony "challenge" won't hide your subtle deflection."

Where are the fallen angels ever referred to as 'gods'?

 

[Apple7]

The law of the excluded middle: Either P or non-P. :
statement is either true or not true

statement is either true or not true : "Satan hindered us"

1Th 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

are you saying the statement "Satan hindered us" is a lie ?

How, EXACTLY, did Satan 'hinder' them?

 

[Apple7]

Lol. Show us the verse that states only God has the power to bind Satan? Another one of your assumptions it would seem.

Already did.

Now...refute it.

 

[Apple7]

I do consider context it is clear you do not, nor do you read or understand my post as we have already been over this Bowman! Here are the verses again, show me exactly where it mentions Demons in 2 Cor 11. Are you saying that where it reads "his ministers" in v14 that this is referring to Demons?

(2 Corinthians 11:12-16) "..But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. 16 I say again: Let no one think I am unreasonable. But even if you do, then accept me as an unreasonable person, so that I too may boast a little.."

I can see how the context states there will be false apostles (pseudapostolos and apostolous), a term only ever applied to men (apostolous) but nowhere does it states that these ones are demons, maybe you could show me where exactly its states as such. If you can't its nothing more than another one of your assumptions.



And yet you've been unable to demonstrate this once, nor can you even show that Satan was bound at the cross.

Demons occupy flesh, according to scripture.

Do false prophets have flesh?

 

[Apple7]

And yet you've been unable to demonstrate this once, nor can you even show that Satan was bound at the cross.

There are scores of scriptures pronouncing that Satan was bound at The Cross.

What do you think Jesus did upon The Cross?

Oh...that's right...nothing...because your cult will not allow Jesus' any divine privileges.

Instead...you heap praises upon Satan for his work today.



Remember this..

Christians worship Christ.

JW's do not.

Therefore, JW's are NOT Christian.

Don't ever claim that you are...

 

[Apple7]

Your understanding of the topic at hand is the unorthodox and cult like here. JW teaching regarding when Satan is bound is more or less the same as that of orthodox Christianity, don't kid yourself.

The tendency of most people is to use Rev 20 as their premise for their end times, and then force all other events to fit to their interpretation of that.

For JW cult adherents, such as yourself, you give it that 'xtra fit' because you deny the Triune God.

Firstly you're ignoring my questions; Can "apēlthen" be applied to someone to simply mean they left the location? Why can the term simply not mean Satan "went away" or 'left from spreading weeds among the wheat' as it reads and so many translators agree?

Not according to the lexicons, which you never bother to study.

No where in scripture does "went away" mean "bound".So your claim that Satan was bound after he spread weeds in among the wheat since the verse states he "went away" is again an assumption.

Scripture utilizes numerous epithets for the bind of Satan.

Show us where scripture states the "weeds" are Satan's demons?

Show us where demons are ever called "sons of the devil/satan/wicked one"?

Done.

 

[Apple7]

Bowman all you keep doing is repeating yourself, where does it state Jesus made Satan idle then and there, I've repeated this question numerous times and you've failed time and time again. ALl you keep spewing is the same thing over and over.

From the aorist (completed action) of the verbs employed.

Just because the word katargēsē is used it does not change context to mean that the said action being spoken of will be completed at that very moment. 1 Corinthians 15:24 has the same usage (katargēsē) yet the action being spoken of in the verse, to this day, has not been completed. No one would argue that in 1 Cor 15:24 that Jesus has already handed all things to the Father so that he can be all things to everyone because the word katargēsē (action completed) was used.

Your argument again is not consistent. If therefore the usage of katargēsē does not demand the action being referred to in a verses context, as in 1 Cor 15:24, is completed then and there when the text was written, then the usage of katargēsē at Hebrews 2:14 does not demand that Jesus made Satan idle then and there at the cross, its simply a reference that he will.

The verb is shown to be active in 1 Cor 15.24.

Therefore, it is up to you, apple7, to show where in Hebrews 2 it states Jesus made Satan idle at his death on the cross. As far as I has seen so far in Hebrews 2 is through Jesus death he might bring to nothing Satan, the one having the means to cause death, it mentions nowhere that he actually brought Satan to nothing.

Who ever made the claim that it brought Satan 'to nothing', besides you?