John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[daqq]

Paul came later and claimed to have had an 'encounter' with Jesus, but only saw a light and heard a voice, it was but a visionary experience, and then formulated his own gospel based on his own personal revelations after that, a good mix of his own Jewish background/scripture, albeit allegorically interpreted, mystery religion motifs, greek and gnostic philosophical overtones, and other elements distancing his teaching further away from Jewish law and customs.

Concerning the experience of Paul, (seeing nothing but a great Light), there are very similar things also recorded in the Gospel accounts but the modern mind simply appears not willing to even see the possibility of such things anymore, (because to see such things in ancient texts would oppose the physical and historical interpretations and the modern doctrines could not stay intact).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul came later and claimed to have had an 'encounter' with Jesus, but only saw a light and heard a voice, it was but a visionary experience, and then formulated his own gospel based on his own personal revelations after that, a good mix of his own Jewish background/scripture, albeit allegorically interpreted, mystery religion motifs, greek and gnostic philosophical overtones, and other elements distancing his teaching further away from Jewish law and customs.

That is ridiculous!

 

[steko]

The point is Mary was a descendant of David through Nathan. That throne will go to Jesus forever, not Solomon.

Solomon had his time and we'll see him at the second resurrection.

1+1=2
2+2=4
4+4=8

and so on.

 

[jamie]

1+1=2
2+2=4
4+4=8

and so on.

0001 + 0010 = 0011

and so on.

 

[freelight]

Concerning the experience of Paul, (seeing nothing but a great Light), there are very similar things also recorded in the Gospel accounts but the modern mind simply appears not willing to even see the possibility of such things anymore, (because to see such things in ancient texts would oppose the physical and historical interpretations and the modern doctrines could not stay intact).

Could you expand on that? Indeed, as I shared,....all Paul saw was a blinding light and claimed he heard a voice, who he 'assumed' was Jesus. He also gives 3 different accounts of such an event (or the scribe alters it) which has some contradictions. So, heard a voice, saw a great light, and then a new gospel comes forth, a 'revelation' he claims to solely have, and so he goes forth to preach 'his new gospel'.

Many aspects of his gospel are based on an inner gnostic experience of the 'Christ within', the hidden mystery, so it has gnostic elements, plus some asepcts of his cosmology (fallen powers, aeons, principalities, powers), and the dualistic struggle of 'flesh' vs. 'spirit', etc. In any case, some do see a lack of harmony between Jesus teaching and Paul's teaching, whether you 'dispensationalize' them or not. Do you believe Paul had a true encounter with Jesus, and is Paul's gospel different in any way from what Jesus taught as his gospel of the kingdom? It would appear so, how do you resolve things?

 

[marhig]

Father (of God), not Father of God.

What's the difference? Thanks

 

[marhig]

Here is what Paul told us to do in regard to false teaching:
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables"[/I] (2 Tim.4:2-4).

Ok, I notice that you didn't say that it's wrong to condemn others to hell?

Anyway, going by the verses you have quoted, here it says to rebuke with sound doctrine. And seeing that the way I believe is so wrong, that Jesus is the son of God, and God is his father and the only true God, just as Jesus says in the Bible.

Can you show me the sound doctrine that says that I must believe in a triune God, or believe in the trinity to be saved?

Or even that I must believe that Jesus is God. Because I've only ever seen that life eternal is to know the only true God the father and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. And I am to believe that Jesus is the son of God.

So where does it say that God requires me to believe that Jesus is God to belong to him or to be saved? Or that I must believe in the trinity or I'm hell bound?

 

[daqq]

Could you expand on that? Indeed, as I shared,....all Paul saw was a blinding light and claimed he heard a voice, who he 'assumed' was Jesus. He also gives 3 different accounts of such an event (or the scribe alters it) which has some contradictions. So, heard a voice, saw a great light, and then a new gospel comes forth, a 'revelation' he claims to solely have, and so he goes forth to preach 'his new gospel'.

Many aspects of his gospel are based on an inner gnostic experience of the 'Christ within', the hidden mystery, so it has gnostic elements, plus some asepcts of his cosmology (fallen powers, aeons, principalities, powers), and the dualistic struggle of 'flesh' vs. 'spirit', etc. In any case, some do see a lack of harmony between Jesus teaching and Paul's teaching, whether you 'dispensationalize' them or not. Do you believe Paul had a true encounter with Jesus, and is Paul's gospel different in any way from what Jesus taught as his gospel of the kingdom? It would appear so, how do you resolve things?

Thought you might ask, (ever heard of Castor and Pollux? or a phantasma?), so I went ahead and posted my response in one of my old threads, here, so as not to derail this thread. It's the most recent post, (if no one has posted there since about forty minutes ago).

 

[freelight]

Paul, and 'his' gospel......

Paul, and 'his' gospel......

That is ridiculous!

You apparently haven't researched much of the problems that do exist with Paul, perhaps because of over-veneration of him and not enough exposure in the academic world? I left some excellent links for study resources in an earlier post. Its there if you want learn more, research it out. See for yourself.

More research on Paul (critical)

I recognize the conflict and suspicions around Paul concerning his apostleship, and one can go deep into all that and come up on whatever side of the pond, it can get confusing. I don't reject Paul outright because I don't necessarily take a position on either side but try to look at the historical/cultural-context as a whole, then compare doctrine, theology, etc. I recognize the allegorical esoteric teachings in his letters, those that are universal,....types, shadows, figures, etc. As one who is more of a gnostic-mystic-spiritualist type,...certain passages ring true being universal to human experience. - however I don't necessarily agree on certain doctrinal points of his or personal quirks (opinions) and eccentricities as it were. He certainly shared his own opinions at times, while other times he felt his words were inspired or 'from the Lord'. These however were his own claims...so they can only be taken upon his own word, whether one feels they are true and chooses to put their faith in whatever he professes. Note, almost all claims of 'apostleship' are Paul claiming them for himself. Luke his companion would naturally have a bias to present him more favorably in the 'Acts of the apostles' record.

I think all the older Paul threads I've posted on in the past are no longer extant, but will give it a looky loo

 

[marhig]

So you do think that there are TWO saviors. Got it.

You, like most anti-Christs, confused the Father/Son relationship in the Godhead with human biology.

Be careful as what your determine to be anti Christ, these are those who deny Jesus, and those who know God and Christ and don't live by Gods will. These are the true anti Christ's those who put Christ to death in their hearts by not letting him live instead they live by the lusts of their flesh. You don't know the hearts of the people that your are lumping together as anti Christ. There could be many who believe as you do yet me much further away from God in their hearts!

As for two saviours, it says in the Bible that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Which part of that don't you understand? God was saving the world through Jesus Christ. Jesus said that without the father he could do nothing and that he did not speak his own word, but the father's that sent him, he only spoke as the father gave him. And as the father gave him commandment as to what he should speak and say he did. Jesus is our saviour yes, because he was full of the holy spirit of God and he lived it out and preached the gospel, bringing us the word of God, the ministry of reconciliation by the gospel, and giving us the perfect example to follow and he did it all by doing Gods will and God was with him.

 

[marhig]

No, since Paul got the gospel from Jesus Christ then it is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul is a strong man of God, but Jesus Christ is our cornerstone. And I go to Jesus and to the gospel he preached, which Paul was a minister of. But I don't only go by what Paul preached. By doing so you are putting Paul before Jesus. Jesus is first and foremost and what he said should be what we live by.

His gospel is to be preached to all creation. There isn't two gospels, only one.

 

[meshak]

Be careful as what your determine to be anti Christ, these are those who deny Jesus, and those who know God and Christ and don't live by Gods will.

Exactly

 

[6days]

You apparently haven't researched much of the problems that do exist with Paul, perhaps because of over-veneration of him ...

Peter venerated Paul. He did his research.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't reject Paul outright because I don't necessarily take a position on either side but try to look at the historical/cultural-context as a whole, then compare doctrine, theology, etc.

Since you doubt Paul I can only conclude that your faith stands "in the wisdom of men" and not in "the power of God.":

"And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God"​

(1 Cor.2:4-5).​

Because your faith does not stand in the power of God you lack this evidence:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus is first and foremost and what he said should be what we live by.

His gospel is to be preached to all creation. There isn't two gospels, only one.

Once again you are confused. The gospel of which you speak is spoken of here:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:15-18).​

Have you had a good dose of a deadly thing lately? Of course these things of which the Lord speaks of here are not in effect during the present dispensation.

The gospel preached then is the "good news" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And belief in that gospel resulted in salvation (Jn.20:31;1 Jn.5:1-5).

The "good news" which we are to preach today is centered on the fact that the Lord Jesus died for our sins. And belief in that gospel results in salvation (1 Cor.15:1-4).

One instance of "good news" (gospel) plus another instance of "good news" (gospel) adds up to two gospels.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So where does it say that God requires me to believe that Jesus is God to belong to him or to be saved? Or that I must believe in the trinity or I'm hell bound?

I will speak frankly with you on this subject and this is only my opinion. I think that if you are born of the Spirit then you would believe that what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus here is true:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God"​

(Jn.20:28).​

If the Lord Jesus is not God then He would be obligated to set the record straight and tell Thomas that He is not God. But He said no such thing. Instead He said this to Thomas:

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (v.29).​

Believed what? There is no doubt that the Lord was speaking about the fact that Thomas believed that He is God. And as the Lord said, those who have not seen Him but have believed are blessed. Those who do not believe will not be blessed.

I believe that this is so straightforward that after seeing this all those who have been born of the Spirit will realize that the Lord Jesus is God. I also believe that those who know about these Scriptures and continue to deny that He is God remain a natural man:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

Now I would like you to tell me why you think that we shouldn't believe what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus is true.

And I would also ask you to give me what you think is your best evidence which you think proves that the Lord Jesus is not God.

Thanks!

 

[Right Divider]

Be careful as what your determine to be anti Christ, these are those who deny Jesus, and those who know God and Christ and don't live by Gods will. These are the true anti Christ's those who put Christ to death in their hearts by not letting him live instead they live by the lusts of their flesh. You don't know the hearts of the people that your are lumping together as anti Christ. There could be many who believe as you do yet me much further away from God in their hearts!

You deny the Son.

As for two saviours, it says in the Bible that God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world unto himself.

The word "IN" here means "through". It does not mean that God was wearing a Christ mask.

Which part of that don't you understand? God was saving the world through Jesus Christ. Jesus said that without the father he could do nothing and that he did not speak his own word, but the father's that sent him, he only spoke as the father gave him. And as the father gave him commandment as to what he should speak and say he did. Jesus is our saviour yes, because he was full of the holy spirit of God and he lived it out and preached the gospel, bringing us the word of God, the ministry of reconciliation by the gospel, and giving us the perfect example to follow and he did it all by doing Gods will and God was with him.

God has declared that HE is the ONLY savior. Nowhere will you find SAVIORS.

Perfect example? So you think that we should all be ministers of the circumcision?

 

[marhig]

I will speak frankly with you on this subject and this is only my opinion. I think that if you are born of the Spirit then you would believe that what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus here is true:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God"​

(Jn.20:28).​

If the Lord Jesus is not God then He would be obligated to set the record straight and tell Thomas that He is not God. But He said no such thing. Instead He said this to Thomas:

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (v.29).​

Believed what? There is no doubt that the Lord was speaking about the fact that Thomas believed that He is God. And as the Lord said, those who have not seen Him but have believed are blessed. Those who do not believe will not be blessed.

I believe that this is so straightforward that after seeing this all those who have been born of the Spirit will realize that the Lord Jesus is God. I also believe that those who know about these Scriptures and continue to deny that He is God remain a natural man:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

Now I would like you to tell me why you think that we shouldn't believe what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus is true.

And I would also ask you to give me what you think is your best evidence which you think proves that the Lord Jesus is not God.

Thanks!

Jerry there are so many verses in the new testament to show us that Jesus isn't God that it's unbelievable that some people can't see it. Also, I would rather believe Jesus than anyone, and in this scripture (below) it's pretty clear to me regarding who Jesus and God are. Jesus is telling us himself who God is.

John 17

As THOUhast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as THOU hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom THOU hast sent.

I don't need to rely on my opinion, Jesus clearly tells us that the father is the one and only true God and that he sent Jesus Christ, that's as clear as crystal to me.

But regardless of what I believe, it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that I am to believe that Jesus is God, but that I am to believe that Jesus is the son of God which i do. So it doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks about those who don't believe in a triune God, this is not a what Jesus teaches us that we are to believe in, he teaches us that the father is God and that the father is his God and that he is the son of God and I believe him. And we are taught that we are to have faith and believe in the son of God to have life, which i do!

As for Thomas, Jesus didn't say to Thomas that because he sees him he believes that he was God. Jesus was talking about Thomas believing that he lives. Thomas didn't have faith that Jesus was risen and that he was alive.

Look here a bit further back in the same chapter

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Thomas said that he wouldn't believe that Jesus was alive unless he sees him with his own eyes, and when Thomas saw him and believed that he was alive, Jesus then said Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

We are blessed if we believe in the son of God, and we believe through faith that he lives. Not that he is God.

As I said, I haven't read anywhere in the Bible where it says that i must believe that Jesus is God or that I have to believe in a triune to be saved. So people here should be very careful how they judge others and what they say about them, because they could belong to God and the church of Christ. Just because they don't believe as you do doesn't mean they are hellbound, it's the heart that counts and that is what God looks at, to see if we have that heart of his son, he only sees his son and he only sees us of we have his heart and we are doing Gods will as Jesus did.

 

[marhig]

You deny the Son.


The word "IN" here means "through". It does not mean that God was wearing a Christ mask.


God has declared that HE is the ONLY savior. Nowhere will you find SAVIORS.

Perfect example? So you think that we should all be ministers of the circumcision?

You don't understand what I mean, maybe you could ask God to show you, I hope that he does.

Also, we should speak to anyone and everyone, Jesus did. He spoke to Jews and gentiles. God gives us a mouth to speak and who are we to judge who we should and shouldn't speak to?

 

[Right Divider]

You don't understand what I mean, maybe you could ask God to show you, I hope that he does.

You claim that there are TWO saviors; the Bible says that there is ONE. What more do I need to know?

The Bible also says that God is our savior and that Jesus Christ is our savior. But you cannot follow that to its logical conclusion.

Also, we should speak to anyone and everyone, Jesus did. He spoke to Jews and gentiles. God gives us a mouth to speak and who are we to judge who we should and shouldn't speak to?

You're a little slow.

• You said that Jesus was our example.
• Jesus was a minister of the circumcision. (Rom 15:8)
• Should we be that too?