John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[marhig]

God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Tim 3:16 KJV.


You think that there are TWO LORDS?

Is God the Father NOT LORD?

Gen 2:4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:4) ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, ​

You must also believe that there is more than one savior too.

Titus 1:3-4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:3) But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; (1:4) To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. ​

Paul says that God is our Savior and that Jesus Christ is our Savior! Are there TWO SAVIORS?

Would you like more?

It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, this was through the holy spirit. Jesus preached the word of God, preaching the ministry of reconciliation. We are saved by the grace of God if we believe in the son of God and have faith.

Just because Jesus is called Lord, doesn't mean he's God. The Bible clearly tells us that there is one God and that's the father. But you can't seem to see it even though it's in many verses and it is written as clear as crystal, and Jesus even says it himself.

What amazes me is, you don't believe what's written in the Bible, that there is only one God and he's the father, yet you believe that we must believe in a trinitarian God when the Bible doesn't tell us to believe this.

It tells us in the Bible that God is the father and Jesus Christ is the son. Why don't you believe it? Jesus said this himself and he even said that to believe in the son of God is to have life, yet many here say that we belong to Satan and were not saved if we don't believe in the trinity. It doesn't say this anywhere in the Bible. Why can't people see this? instead of condemning others when they don't know their hearts?

 

[marhig]

John 4:24 uses proskeuneo but really can be read as to do obeisance or to bow, as if to a king, as it is often used in the Septuagint. The Septuagint also helps to explain the way different Greek words are used, in what contexts, and for what purposes, such as phobos and phobeo which are most often used in "the fear of the Lord" statements, and which really means reverential fear, (for example "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"). One may just as easily read John 4:24, (proskeuneo), to be saying, "God is Spirit: and they that bow to Him must bow in spirit and truth." But if one reads it this way it would dramatically affect doctrine because now, all of the sudden, things must be seen in a completely different light. This is because in modern times when you say worship people automatically think of a church service with their eyes closed and their hands maybe raised up singing worship songs to God. I do not believe that is what Yeshua is saying here at all, but rather, imo, it concerns how we walk with the Father, (it must be in spirit and in truth; which is a paradigm shift in understanding). To bow is to do obeisance but not just during a prayer, or "worship service", but in everything we do, say, and believe in our doctrine. As for honor it is the same word used for honoring your father and your mother, (not about "worship" but respect). You can show an awful lot of respect for someone without worshiping them. If Messiah is the Word of Elohim then he delivers those who honor and respect him because they do what the Word says, (because he is the Word of the Father).

That's great and I agree, we worship God in everything we do, we worship him by doing his will and living to please him. Worshipping God in spirit and in truth isn't just singing songs and saying the odd prayer, is giving our heart to him and living by his word laying out life down for him and by doing this, we follow Jesus who showed us the way.

Jesus said that his mother, brothers and sisters are those who do the will of his father so those who obey God and do his will, are those who belong to him.

 

[freelight]

That's great and I agree, we worship God in everything we do, we worship him by doing his will and living to please him. Worshipping God in spirit and in truth isn't just singing songs and saying the odd prayer, is giving our heart to him and living by his word laying out life down for him and by doing this, we follow Jesus who showed us the way.

Jesus said that his mother, brothers and sisters are those who do the will of his father so those who obey God and do his will, are those who belong to him.

These are true religious principles based on spiritual truths, ethics and moral values....whether you believe Jesus is 'God' or not

:thumb:

 

[freelight]

A rational theology................

A rational theology................

It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, this was through the holy spirit. Jesus preached the word of God, preaching the ministry of reconciliation. We are saved by the grace of God if we believe in the son of God and have faith.

Just because Jesus is called Lord, doesn't mean he's God. The Bible clearly tells us that there is one God and that's the father. But you can't seem to see it even though it's in many verses and it is written as clear as crystal, and Jesus even says it himself.

What amazes me is, you don't believe what's written in the Bible, that there is only one God and he's the father, yet you believe that we must believe in a trinitarian God when the Bible doesn't tell us to believe this.

It tells us in the Bible that God is the father and Jesus Christ is the son. Why don't you believe it? Jesus said this himself and he even said that to believe in the son of God is to have life, yet many here say that we belong to Satan and were not saved if we don't believe in the trinity. It doesn't say this anywhere in the Bible. Why can't people see this? instead of condemning others when they don't know their hearts?

How one lives, and treats others is the standard that judges us, essentially and ultimately. A belief in the Trinity is a non-essential for 'salvation' and only affirmed by an orthodox belief-system of those who submit to such. So goes the power of investments, but we might question the pay off.

A belief in the Trinity may or may not be helpful or detrimental to one's personal walk with God, it depends on the purity of heart and faith of a believer in 'God' and 'Christ' in how things are 'appropriated'. Doctrinal matters or intellectual concepts have their place within any given theology. I think a meditation upon the Sermon on the mount could do wonders for those stuck in the crust of crystalized dogma (most created centuries after Jesus lived), and then adopting a philosophy of living that facilitates spiritual values and religious principles is all that is needed, for starters anyways

 

[marhig]

How one lives, and treats others is the standard that judges us, essentially and ultimately. A belief in the Trinity is a non-essential for 'salvation' and only affirmed by an orthodox belief-system of those who submit to such. So goes the power of investments, but we might question the pay off.

A belief in the Trinity may or may not be helpful or detrimental to one's personal walk with God, it depends on the purity of heart and faith of a believer in 'God' and 'Christ' in how things are 'appropriated'. Doctrinal matters or intellectual concepts have their place within any given theology. I think a meditation upon the Sermon on the mount could do wonders for those stuck in the crust of crystalized dogma (most created centuries after Jesus lived), and then adopting a philosophy of living that facilitates spiritual values and religious principles is all that is needed, for starters anyways

I think what I find hard to believe, is that others will judge people who don't believe in the trinity as not belonging to God and they say that they belong to Satan and are going to hell. Yet this isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. I couldn't condemn anyone to hell, and I have hope that everyone will enter into heaven. I don't understand how people have become so high and proud that they can look down on others who love God in this way, and they don't know their hearts.

There are those who believe that because others believe as they do they are saved, but many could have a heart very far from God, it's not what we say, but what we do that shows how much we love God. And he is judging all of our hearts.

Jesus taught us to love and forgive, show kindness and mercy and bring the love of God to others. He didn't teach us to condemn each other to hell.

I believe that heaven and hell are a state, and that we can enter into them in the here and now, hell being in outer darkness under the control of Satan, and heaven being in the glorious light of God and our hearts being protected and cleansed by him, and the way to him us through Christ Jesus. Many think this world is the be all and end all, with their "you only live once" mindset. But this life is temporal, and to know God is to walk in the light and once we know God, then this world and the works of it should mean nothing, our flesh should be dying, (which is death to self) and we should be living by the will of God, wanting to please him, being a living sacrifice and bringing the love of God as Christ to all we meet, regardless of who they are, or what they believe, or what they do to us. We are to show them the love of God which Christ Jesus showed perfectly and he's our example and God is judging us on what we do and what we say.

God loves us all, I couldn't condemn anyone to hell, I'm just flesh and it's not my place to do so. I hope that God forgives those who do this.

 

[freelight]

Loving the hell out.......

Loving the hell out.......

Jesus taught us to love and forgive, show kindness and mercy and bring the love of God to others. He didn't teach us to condemn each other to hell.

God loves us all, I couldn't condemn anyone to hell, I'm just flesh and it's not my place to do so. I hope that God forgives those who do this.

I agree, its arrogant, cruel and presumptuous to condemn, threaten or assume that anyone is 'going to hell' if they don't believe in some prescribed theology or point of doctrine. Yes, heaven or hell are conditions of mind, states of consciousness, besides their assumed locations somewhere in some designated place. We are co-creating the conditioning of our space and experience moment to moment, by thoughts, words, actions. So goes universal law.

 

[Ben Masada]

Jesus is the Son of God - John 10:30

Sorry but, Jesus IS not the son of God. He is dead. HaShem Who God of the living, not of the dead. Jesus was son of God during the 33 years of his life. Still not on an individual basis but as part of the People aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Notice that I am making nothing out of my mind. The Tanach which Jesus always referred to as the Word of God says all according to the quote I have mentioned.

 

[Right Divider]

It says in the Bible that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, this was through the holy spirit. Jesus preached the word of God, preaching the ministry of reconciliation. We are saved by the grace of God if we believe in the son of God and have faith.

Just because Jesus is called Lord, doesn't mean he's God. The Bible clearly tells us that there is one God and that's the father. But you can't seem to see it even though it's in many verses and it is written as clear as crystal, and Jesus even says it himself.

What amazes me is, you don't believe what's written in the Bible, that there is only one God and he's the father, yet you believe that we must believe in a trinitarian God when the Bible doesn't tell us to believe this.

It tells us in the Bible that God is the father and Jesus Christ is the son. Why don't you believe it? Jesus said this himself and he even said that to believe in the son of God is to have life, yet many here say that we belong to Satan and were not saved if we don't believe in the trinity. It doesn't say this anywhere in the Bible. Why can't people see this? instead of condemning others when they don't know their hearts?

So you do think that there are TWO saviors. Got it.

You, like most anti-Christs, confused the Father/Son relationship in the Godhead with human biology.

 

[Ben Masada]

So you do think that there are TWO saviors. Got it. You, like most anti-Christs, confused the Father/Son relationship in the Godhead with human biology.

If Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph, he could not have been the Messiah. Tribal genealogy would come down only through the father. Now, if Jesus was a biological son of Joseph, he could not be son of God. You can't bake your cake and eat it too. Either he was son of God or the Messiah. You choose. That's a paradox.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Over-emphasizing anything about 'worship' is just reading into the text. Its about 'honor', 'respect'. Its a mutual respect between the Father and Jesus. Stretching it to anything else is 'reading your own translation' into the text per theological bias.

You are missing my point.

You said that you worship the Father to honor Him. Now let us look at this verse again:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

Here the Lord Jesus said that we must honor the Son in the same way that we honor the Father.

And since you honor the Father by worshipping Him then you must worship the Lord Jesus to honor Him.

But that you refuse to do!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph, he could not have been the Messiah. Tribal genealogy would come down only through the father. Now, if Jesus was a biological son of Joseph, he could not be son of God. You can't bake your cake and eat it too. Either he was son of God or the Messiah. You choose. That's a paradox.

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of" here when he spoke to Elymas:

"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?"​

(Acts 13:10).​

The Jews who heard this would understand that Paul was saying that Elymas' "nature" was that of the devil.

And when the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God those who heard Him would understand Him to be saying that His very nature is that of God. And when He said that God is His Father the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

Therefore, we can understand that when the Lord Jesus said that He is the Son of God it has nothing to do with being a biological son.

 

[Ben Masada]

You are missing my point. You said that you worship the Father to honor Him. Now let us look at this verse again: "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23). Here the Lord Jesus said that we must honor the Son in the same way that we honor the Father. And since you honor the Father by worshipping Him then you must worship the Lord Jesus to honor Him. But that you refuse to do!

Are you sure that the rule must be observed "That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father?" If that rule must be observed as it is stated, I hope you won't apply to subterfuge to deny the truth when you become aware that God the Father declared, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23) If HaShem declared that Israel is His Son, you must honor the Word of the Father by honoring Israel, the Son of God. Does that sound logical to you or not?

 

[steko]

If Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph, he could not have been the Messiah. Tribal genealogy would come down only through the father. Now, if Jesus was a biological son of Joseph, he could not be son of God. You can't bake your cake and eat it too. Either he was son of God or the Messiah. You choose. That's a paradox.

If Jesus was the biological son of Joseph He could not be the Messiah.
The prophesied Messiah is promised David's throne.
The Lord placed a curse on the lineage of Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Coniah, that none of his descendants could reign from the throne of David.
Joseph is a direct descendant of Jeconiah.
The curse would not only disqualify Jesus of Nazareth from the throne but would disqualify any descendants of Coniah, which leaves you without a Messiah, unless..... GOD Himself does something very unusual to bypass His own restriction.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus taught us to love and forgive, show kindness and mercy and bring the love of God to others. He didn't teach us to condemn each other to hell.

Here is what Paul told us to do in regard to false teaching:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim.4:2-4).​

The idea that the Lord Jesus is not God is a fable and it is based on a denial of what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus here:

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).​

Of course if the Lord Jesus is not God then He would have made it plain to Thomas that He is not God. But instead here is what He said:

"Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (v.29).​

If the Lord Jesus is not God then will someone explain to me why Jesus did not correct Thomas.

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you sure that the rule must be observed "That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father?" If that rule must be observed as it is stated, I hope you won't apply to subterfuge to deny the truth when you become aware that God the Father declared, "Israel is My Son." (Exodus 4:22,23) If HaShem declared that Israel is His Son, you must honor the Word of the Father by honoring Israel, the Son of God. Does that sound logical to you or not?

From the context it is obvious that when the Lord Jesus used the term "the Son" He was referring to no one ese but Himself.

 

[Ben Masada]

Let us look how Paul used the term "son of" here when he spoke to Elymas:"O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10). The Jews who heard this would understand that Paul was saying that Elymas' "nature" was that of the devil. And when the Lord Jesus claimed to be the Son of God those who heard Him would understand Him to be saying that His very nature is that of God. And when He said that God is His Father the Jews understood that He was claiming to be God: "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18). Therefore, we can understand that when the Lord Jesus said that He is the Son of God it has nothing to do with being a biological son.

If Jesus declared to be the son of God, he could not have claimed to be the Messiah because, as a leaned Jew, he knew that God could not be from the Tribe of Judah. So, he had to be a biological son of Joseph to be the Messiah. It means that, either you take it, you are caught by the Pauline paradox.

 

[Ben Masada]

From the context it is obvious that when the Lord Jesus used the term "the Son" He was referring to no one ese but Himself.

How do you know if you were not with him when he said what you are claiming he did? You Christians never cease amazing me! Besides, who said that he let go that statement out of his mouth when the NT was written many years after he had been gone? Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise. Jesus behaved as the Jew that he was according to his gospel which was the Tanach.

 

[Tambora]

If Jesus was the biological son of Joseph He could not be the Messiah.
The prophesied Messiah is promised David's throne.
The Lord placed a curse on the lineage of Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Coniah, that none of his descendants could reign from the throne of David.
Joseph is a direct descendant of Jeconiah.
The curse would not only disqualify Jesus of Nazareth from the throne but would disqualify any descendants of Coniah, which leaves you without a Messiah, unless..... GOD Himself does something very unusual to bypass His own restriction.

Yeppers.

Jeremiah 22:30 KJV
(30) Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

 

[Ben Masada]

If Jesus was the biological son of Joseph He could not be the Messiah. The prophesied Messiah is promised David's throne. The Lord placed a curse on the lineage of Jehoiachin/Jeconiah/Coniah, that none of his descendants could reign from the throne of David. Joseph is a direct descendant of Jeconiah. The curse would not only disqualify Jesus of Nazareth from the throne but would disqualify any descendants of Coniah, which leaves you without a Messiah, unless..... GOD Himself does something very unusual to bypass His own restriction.

He did already. He sent us a Prophet called Habakkuk with the truth that "The Lord goes forth to save His PEOPLE; to save His Anointed One." (Habakkuk 3:13) That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. Since the day God's message through Habakkuk came to me, I have embraced the collective concept of Messiah. Now, if you want to go logical, the Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a PEOPLE before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

 

[daqq]

That's great and I agree, we worship God in everything we do, we worship him by doing his will and living to please him. Worshipping God in spirit and in truth isn't just singing songs and saying the odd prayer, is giving our heart to him and living by his word laying out life down for him and by doing this, we follow Jesus who showed us the way.

Jesus said that his mother, brothers and sisters are those who do the will of his father so those who obey God and do his will, are those who belong to him.

Amen, well said.