Using some offbeat "Christianese" won't help you to hide your New Age reasoning.
John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God
- Thread starter TrevorL
- Start date
Using some offbeat "Christianese" won't help you to hide your New Age reasoning.
Freelight isn't a Bible believing Christian and if you're fooled into believing he is, you're just plain naive.
Even the management on TOL thinks Caino and Freelight are a couple of "oddballs."
If Freelight were to say, "It's raining outside," you best run to the window and check it out for yourself. That's how untrustworthy he and his fellow New Ager, Caino are.
One might wonder if Freelight and Caino get a "Kickback" for promoting "The Urantia Book" the way they try and coax their fellow posters into reading "The Urantia Book" materials.
Enough said. The warning is out.
Enough said. The warning is out.
Yet, they're one. Amen.
marhig
Well-known member
Nice try in manipulating the scriptures to suit your beliefs! But John is talking about knowing God not knowing Jesus as God. John quite clearly says that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Jesus isn't God.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.*And*we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.*And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true,*even*in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life
You believe what you will Jerry, but I know that God is the father and Jesus Christ is the son, as the Bible clearly says. I have no doubt whatsoever! And it says in the Bible that i must believe in the son of God to have life, and I do. I believe Jesus and he taught this!
marhig
Well-known member
What, verses like this?
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Would you like more?
marhig
Well-known member
Grosnick, can you tell me where it mentions the father of God in the Bible? Thanks.
Right Divider
Body part
God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Tim 3:16 KJV.
You think that there are TWO LORDS?
Is God the Father NOT LORD?
Gen 2:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(2:4) ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
You must also believe that there is more than one savior too.
Titus 1:3-4 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:3) But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; (1:4) To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Paul says that God is our Savior and that Jesus Christ is our Savior! Are there TWO SAVIORS?
Would you like more?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No you haven't. You said that you worship the Father to honor Him. And since the Lord Jesus said that we are to honor Him in the same way that we honor the Father then we must also worship the Son.
But in your unbelief you refuse to worship the Lord Jesus.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In your opinion when did the Lord Jesus become "Son of God"?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I resent being accused of manipulating the Scriptures. If you are right then you should be able to tell us exactly how I manipulated what I said here:
Here the Apostle John makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is God:
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).
It is the Lord Jesus who is God and is also called "eternal life" here:
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)" (1 Jn.1:1-2).
The following verse is in regard to what John said about the Lord Jesus being with the Father, and no doubt He is described as the one in "bold":
"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (Isa.57:15).
Let us look at this passage again and pay attention to the word "this":
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).
The Greek word translated "this" is a demonstrative pronoun and "it refers to a subject immediately preceding, the one just named" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
When when we read "this is the true God" we can know that these words are referring to the Lord Jesus, the One just named.
Of course you will be able to trick your mind into believing that the Apostle John is just plain wrong, the same way that you did when you rejected what Thomas said to the Lord Jesus:
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (Jn.20:28).
You put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.
Last edited:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets try this again.....
Lets try this again.....
I already explained my position, and expressed no dishonor to Jesus. Review. I've nowhere said Jesus does not deserve worship respecting his office and relationship to God, as his Messenger. You're over emphasizing 'worship' due to your tendency to deify Jesus, but Jesus never said to 'worship' him in the same fashion as the Father is worshipped. We are to honor him equally because He's God's Servant. He ever directs our worship to the Father, and instructed us to do so in spirit and truth. Exalting Jesus to a position that he himself did not claim for himself, is superimposing an unnecessity, that if true even he would oppose. To honor him in his true office, and relationship to the Father is both right and honorable.
We must also note other Christological views that are possible and exist among other traditions as well, within both Unitarian and Trinitarian schools and beyond. I just happen to favor a more Unitarian perspective on a practical level, although I can equally explore and describe more liberal gnostic and channeled info. about Jesus. The traditional-orthodox Christian concept of Jesus is not the only one that exists. While its been said "you cant put God in a box",....that equally goes for 'Jesus',....since many different 'beliefs' and 'descriptions' exist about him, trying to define or 'contain' him totally, when beyond any rational conclusion or revelation,...there is only 'faith' at last to save the day. Therefore relaxing any one dogmatic view may be commendable at the end of the day, because your opinion may be subject to change.
Lets try this again.....
I already explained my position, and expressed no dishonor to Jesus. Review. I've nowhere said Jesus does not deserve worship respecting his office and relationship to God, as his Messenger. You're over emphasizing 'worship' due to your tendency to deify Jesus, but Jesus never said to 'worship' him in the same fashion as the Father is worshipped. We are to honor him equally because He's God's Servant. He ever directs our worship to the Father, and instructed us to do so in spirit and truth. Exalting Jesus to a position that he himself did not claim for himself, is superimposing an unnecessity, that if true even he would oppose. To honor him in his true office, and relationship to the Father is both right and honorable.
We must also note other Christological views that are possible and exist among other traditions as well, within both Unitarian and Trinitarian schools and beyond. I just happen to favor a more Unitarian perspective on a practical level, although I can equally explore and describe more liberal gnostic and channeled info. about Jesus. The traditional-orthodox Christian concept of Jesus is not the only one that exists. While its been said "you cant put God in a box",....that equally goes for 'Jesus',....since many different 'beliefs' and 'descriptions' exist about him, trying to define or 'contain' him totally, when beyond any rational conclusion or revelation,...there is only 'faith' at last to save the day. Therefore relaxing any one dogmatic view may be commendable at the end of the day, because your opinion may be subject to change.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Honor, not worship.......
Honor, not worship.......
ok, since you are emphasizing that one passage about honoring the Son as one honors the Father (John 5:23) to support your belief that this somehow makes Jesus 'God', lets review it again (in context) -
Most English translation in the passage above you are 'emphasizing' have the word 'honor', not 'worship' (even if you continue to claim 'worship' is included in the word's meaning). There are other greek words in the gospel of John that translate into the English word worship,....why didn't the scribe use that word in John 5:23? the same word for 'worship' that is used in John 4:24? - why didn't they use this greek word in your highlighted verse to emphasize the true sense of 'worship'?
Over-emphasizing anything about 'worship' is just reading into the text. Its about 'honor', 'respect'. Its a mutual respect between the Father and Jesus. Stretching it to anything else is 'reading your own translation' into the text per theological bias.
Honor, not worship.......
ok, since you are emphasizing that one passage about honoring the Son as one honors the Father (John 5:23) to support your belief that this somehow makes Jesus 'God', lets review it again (in context) -
Most English translation in the passage above you are 'emphasizing' have the word 'honor', not 'worship' (even if you continue to claim 'worship' is included in the word's meaning). There are other greek words in the gospel of John that translate into the English word worship,....why didn't the scribe use that word in John 5:23? the same word for 'worship' that is used in John 4:24? - why didn't they use this greek word in your highlighted verse to emphasize the true sense of 'worship'?
Over-emphasizing anything about 'worship' is just reading into the text. Its about 'honor', 'respect'. Its a mutual respect between the Father and Jesus. Stretching it to anything else is 'reading your own translation' into the text per theological bias.
Hey Freelight,
There are also some other words for worship which are generally reserved only for the Father:
Acts 17:23 KJV
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, [G2151 εὐσεβέω eusebeo - reverential fear] him declare I unto you.
See also G2152 εὐσεβής (a God-fearer [worshiper]) but it is generally rendered devout or pious.
Cornelius was a proselyte God-fearer with soldiers under him that were also God-fearers.
(http://biblehub.com/greek/2152.htm).
Isaiah 11:2 KJV
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah 11:2 LXX
2 και αναπαυσεται επ αυτον πνευμα του θεου πνευμα σοφιας και συνεσεως πνευμα βουλης και ισχυος πνευμα γνωσεως και ευσεβειας
Isaiah 11:2 LXX Brenton Translation
2 and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness [God-fearing or reverential fear] shall fill him;
And also sebomai, and sebasma-sebazomai as Paul uses it and be sure to note the context which is blatant:
Matthew 15:9 KJV
9 But in vain they do worship [G4576 σέβομαι sebomai] me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Romans 1:25 KJV
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped [G4573 σεβάζομαι sebazomai] and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; [G4574 σέβασμα sebasma] so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
These and their forms are not used the same way or as often as proskeuneo, (which makes them special).
But even the kings of Israel were bowed to, honored, and given obeisant-homage-respect, (proskeuneo).
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hey Freelight,
There are also some other words for worship which are generally reserved only for the Father:
Acts 17:23 KJV
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, [G2151 εὐσεβέω eusebeo - reverential fear] him declare I unto you.
See also G2152 εὐσεβής (a God-fearer [worshiper]) but it is generally rendered devout or pious.
Cornelius was a proselyte God-fearer with soldiers under him that were also God-fearers.
(http://biblehub.com/greek/2152.htm).
Isaiah 11:2 KJV
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah 11:2 LXX
2 και αναπαυσεται επ αυτον πνευμα του θεου πνευμα σοφιας και συνεσεως πνευμα βουλης και ισχυος πνευμα γνωσεως και ευσεβειας
Isaiah 11:2 LXX Brenton Translation
2 and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness [God-fearing or reverential fear] shall fill him;
And also sebomai, and sebasma-sebazomai as Paul uses it and be sure to note the context which is blatant:
Matthew 15:9 KJV
9 But in vain they do worship [G4576 σέβομαι sebomai] me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Romans 1:25 KJV
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped [G4573 σεβάζομαι sebazomai] and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; [G4574 σέβασμα sebasma] so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
These and their forms are not used the same way or as often as proskeuneo, (which makes them special).
But even the kings of Israel were bowed to, honored, and given obeisant-homage-respect, (proskeuneo).
Hi Daqq
Thanks. Could you address what word is used for 'worship' in John 4:24, and perhaps why it wasn't used in John 5:23, as in my last post addressed to JS? I just don't see that verse demanding a worship that could be equated with the quality of worship that is to be given the Father alone. I'm sure you follow :thumb:
I would like to briefly comment on Psalm 82 and its significance:
Psalm 82 (KJV): A Psalm of Asaph. 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
The Psalmist is speaking against the Judges in Israel, and even though they were called Elohim, they were about to be judged and removed from their office. The Angels, God’s ministers, another class of Elohim, heavenly in nature and position, were about to judge these corrupt Judges, Elohim, Divinely appointed originally under Moses, but human. The final outcome was the development of another class of Elohim, who would arise and judge the earth verse 6, including the overthrow of these corrupt judges.
The Judges or Elohim in Jesus’ time were the Sanhedrin, and their associates, who had tried to arrest Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles, despite Nicodemus' objection, and who had tried to entrap him, the light of the world, with the woman taken in adultery, and who had cast out the blind man, despite his simple faithful testimony. Jesus in quoting Psalm 82 was reminding them that their day of judgement and removal from office was near at hand.
Kind regards
Trevor
Psalm 82 (KJV): A Psalm of Asaph. 1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
The Psalmist is speaking against the Judges in Israel, and even though they were called Elohim, they were about to be judged and removed from their office. The Angels, God’s ministers, another class of Elohim, heavenly in nature and position, were about to judge these corrupt Judges, Elohim, Divinely appointed originally under Moses, but human. The final outcome was the development of another class of Elohim, who would arise and judge the earth verse 6, including the overthrow of these corrupt judges.
The Judges or Elohim in Jesus’ time were the Sanhedrin, and their associates, who had tried to arrest Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles, despite Nicodemus' objection, and who had tried to entrap him, the light of the world, with the woman taken in adultery, and who had cast out the blind man, despite his simple faithful testimony. Jesus in quoting Psalm 82 was reminding them that their day of judgement and removal from office was near at hand.
Kind regards
Trevor
Hi Daqq
Thanks. Could you address what word is used for 'worship' in John 4:24, and perhaps why it wasn't used in John 5:23, as in my last post addressed to JS? I just don't see that verse demanding a worship that could be equated with the quality of worship that is to be given the Father alone. I'm sure you follow :thumb:
John 4:24 uses proskeuneo but really can be read as to do obeisance or to bow, as if to a king, as it is often used in the Septuagint. The Septuagint also helps to explain the way different Greek words are used, in what contexts, and for what purposes, such as phobos and phobeo which are most often used in "the fear of the Lord" statements, and which really means reverential fear, (for example "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"). One may just as easily read John 4:24, (proskeuneo), to be saying, "God is Spirit: and they that bow to Him must bow in spirit and truth." But if one reads it this way it would dramatically affect doctrine because now, all of the sudden, things must be seen in a completely different light. This is because in modern times when you say worship people automatically think of a church service with their eyes closed and their hands maybe raised up singing worship songs to God. I do not believe that is what Yeshua is saying here at all, but rather, imo, it concerns how we walk with the Father, (it must be in spirit and in truth; which is a paradigm shift in understanding). To bow is to do obeisance but not just during a prayer, or "worship service", but in everything we do, say, and believe in our doctrine. As for honor it is the same word used for honoring your father and your mother, (not about "worship" but respect). You can show an awful lot of respect for someone without worshiping them. If Messiah is the Word of Elohim then he delivers those who honor and respect him because they do what the Word says, (because he is the Word of the Father).