Jews And Gentiles Same Goal

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Squeaky

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glorydaz said:
Very interesting. Rosen quotes it but doesn't see it. :think:

This is when Peter finally understands the difference between what he and the disciples had been preaching, and what Paul preached. Now he says, "We (Jews) shall be saved, even as they (Gentiles). Not, they shall be saved even as we are. There is a distinction there, and words do matter.

Before this time, the message was that Gentiles could only be saved the same way the Jews were. Repent and be baptised....believing Jesus was the Messiah. After this is when Paul wrote Galatians 1:8-9. The twelve preached the "good news" of the Kingdom that Jesus preached during His earthly ministry. Paul's Gospel was what the Risen Lord had revealed to Him, and that is the preaching of the Cross, and justification by faith alone.
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I said
He is right, there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. In Christ. In the gospel.

[Act 15:6-14
[6] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
[7] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
[8] "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He did] to us,
[9] "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10] "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11] "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
[12] Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
[13] And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men [and] brethren, listen to me:
[14] "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Squeaky said:
I said
He is right, there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles. In Christ. In the gospel.

[Act 15:6-14
[6] Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
[7] And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up [and] said to them: "Men [and] brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
[8] "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as [He did] to us,
[9] "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10] "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11] "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
[12] Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
[13] And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men [and] brethren, listen to me:
[14] "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
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That is under Paul's Gospel. We were talking about the Kingdom Gospel. They were not the same.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Rosenritter said:
Perhaps you would like to attempt those questions instead? Those passages above indicate that Gentiles also need to repent, that Gentiles should also be baptized, and that the Jew likewise needs the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That pretty much erases all the distinctions Bright Raven defined between "two" gospels.

Acts 15:7 KJV
(7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Notice that Peter doesn't say "their own gospel" or "a different gospel" but refers to "the gospel" as if this is the same gospel.

Acts 15:8-11 KJV
(8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
(10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

I'm afraid that blows "two different gospels" out of the water right there. God put no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, and Jews shall be saved even as the Gentiles, through the grace of Jesus.

And yes, GM, bible read cover to cover multiple times, King James, even the "boring" parts of genealogy, even the long words.
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You should probably pray that God will show you how to 'Rightly Divide' His written Word. Right now you remain in ignorance, relating to the difference between the 'Kingdom Gospel' that was preached to the Jews and the 'Gospel of the grace of God,' which was preached first to the Jews and they rejected it, then, to the Gentiles. Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. Today, we only have the 'Gospel of the grace of God' preached to both Jew and Gentile alike.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Rosenritter said:
I have some memories of using basic passages regarding our faith or behavior (or was it the resurrection?) and having it dismissed as "HEBREWS is for the HEBREWS." So here was me, having previously thought all Christians would accept the bible as inspired and applicable for our living, and shocked that the person refused to consider basic application...

I thought it was a dispensationalist thing. Would you be able to forgive the mistaken impression and address the questions regardless? Thanks.
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Hebrews WAS written to the Hebrews.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Squeaky said:
I said
lolo Do you see how rediculous that is. Your suggesting that Jesus preached one gospel them told Paul to preach another one or different one. That is suggesting that Jesus lied to Paul.
There were two different approaches in teaching the gospel. One approach was for the Jews and one approach was for the Gentiles. Paul was sent to the Gentiles but at times he also knew how to approach the Jews.

[1Co 9:19-23
[19] For though I am free from all [men], I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
[20] and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those [who are] under the law, as under the law, that I might win those [who are] under the law;
[21] to those [who are] without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those [who are] without law;
[22] to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
[23] Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with [you].
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:nono:
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Squeaky said:
I said
That isnt why Jesus came. He came to reveal the kingdom of God. It has nothing to do with David. The kingdom of God is inside you, the ignorant Jews thought Jesus was talking about the throne of David. But He wasnt.
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Yeah, the ignorant angel, too, I guess. :chuckle:

Luke 31-33 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​


He was talking about how they could get free from sin. And that is by going into the kingdom of God and changing.

[Luk 4:43
[43] but He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent."
[Luk 8:1, 10
[1] Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went through every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God. And the twelve [were] with Him, ...
[10] And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is given] in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.'
[Luk 16:16
[16] "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
[Luk 17:20-21
[20] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
[21] "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
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Squeaky thinks Jesus told the Pharisees the kingdom of God was within them. :shocked:

No, Squeaky. The Kingdom of God that Jesus was preaching was an earthly political one. That is what the Messiah came for as predicted in the OT. The Jews all needed to repent in order for that Kingdom to come in. They needed to recognize Him as their Messiah. They didn't. They crucified Him instead. So that Kingdom was put off "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
You should probably pray that God will show you how to 'Rightly Divide' His written Word. Right now you remain in ignorance, relating to the difference between the 'Kingdom Gospel' that was preached to the Jews and the 'Gospel of the grace of God,' which was preached first to the Jews first and they rejected it, then, to the Gentiles. Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. Today, we only have the 'Gospel of the grace of God' preached to both Jew and Gentile alike.
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I can remember being in the same boat. Why were they different, I would ask.

I assumed it was a progressive revelation, and in a way, it was.
But the details are facinating once you realize the why of it all.
 
S

Squeaky

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glorydaz said:
That is under Paul's Gospel. We were talking about the Kingdom Gospel. They were not the same.
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I said
lolol You all get off on these tangents and come up with some of the silliest ideas some times. The kingdom gospel is talking about the kingdom of God inside you.Where one puts the gospel into action.

[Luk 10:9
[9] "And heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
[Luk 12:31
[31] "But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.
[Luk 13:20
[20] And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
[Luk 16:16
[16] "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
[Luk 17:20-21
[20] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
[21] "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
 
S

Squeaky

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glorydaz said:
Yeah, the ignorant angel, too, I guess. :chuckle:

Luke 31-33 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.​




Squeaky thinks Jesus told the Pharisees the kingdom of God was within them. :shocked:

No, Squeaky. The Kingdom of God that Jesus was preaching was an earthly political one. That is what the Messiah came for as predicted in the OT. The Jews all needed to repent in order for that Kingdom to come in. They needed to recognize Him as their Messiah. They didn't. They crucified Him instead. So that Kingdom was put off "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Romans 11:25-27 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​
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I said
lolol No it wasnt. The kingdom of God is inside you. Read lk 17 21,22. Only the ignorant Jews thought it would be a political thing. Just like the ignorant to day do.


[Luk 10:9
[9] "And heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
[Luk 12:31
[31] "But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.
[Luk 13:20
[20] And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
[Luk 16:16
[16] "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
[Luk 17:20-21
[20] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
[21] "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Squeaky said:
I said
lolol You all get off on these tangents and come up with some of the silliest ideas some times. The kingdom gospel is talking about the kingdom of God inside you.Where one puts the gospel into action.

[Luk 10:9
[9] "And heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
[Luk 12:31
[31] "But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.
[Luk 13:20
[20] And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
[Luk 16:16
[16] "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
[Luk 17:20-21
[20] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
[21] "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
Click to expand...

The crazy idea is that you think Jesus was telling the hypocritical pharisees that the kingdom of God was in them.
 
S

Squeaky

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glorydaz said:
The crazy idea is that you think Jesus was telling the hypocritical pharisees that the kingdom of God was in them.
Click to expand...

I said
lol He was. Even hindsight tells us now that it wasnt a political thing. Or dont you see that yet.


[20] And again He said, "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
[Luk 16:16
[16] "The law and the prophets [were] until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
[Luk 17:20-21
[20] Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
[21] "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Jerry Shugart said:
I am a dispensationalist and the great majority of dispensationalists (including myself) believe that the doctrine found in all of the epistles applies to those in the Body of Christ.

Now back to our discussion concerning the fact that two different gospels were preached during the Acts period. Were you able to find any evidence that indicates that during the Acts period the gospel centered in the fact that "Christ died for our sins" was preached in the synagogues of the Jews?
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I was going to ask for you to define which specific set of verses you consider preached in the synagogues but then I realized that the underlying assumption was nonsense. It started with the assumption that there was such a division as what you've already supposed. The practical application of the gospel was preaching wherever they went. You won't find any examples of what the disciples preached when they went from house to house, and according to your standard that meant they preached NOTHING.

If you want an example of what was preached to the Jews, read Justin Martyr's "Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew" ... he does preach that Christ died for our sins, and Trypho was one of those Jews.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
You should probably pray that God will show you how to 'Rightly Divide' His written Word. Right now you remain in ignorance, relating to the difference between the 'Kingdom Gospel' that was preached to the Jews and the 'Gospel of the grace of God,' which was preached first to the Jews first and they rejected it, then, to the Gentiles. Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles. Today, we only have the 'Gospel of the grace of God' preached to both Jew and Gentile alike.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you would like to answer the set for four questions that I keep asking the dispensationlists that keep being ignored?
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

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Grosnick Marowbe said:
Hebrews WAS written to the Hebrews.
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... and is applicable to everyone.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I've heard Dispensationlists claim that passages like that don't apply to them.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Rosenritter said:
... and is applicable to everyone.

Hebrews 11:6 KJV
(6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I've heard Dispensationlists claim that passages like that don't apply to them.
Click to expand...

You have the right to believe anything you want, right or wrong.
 
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