Jewed

[JosephR]

Heb 8:8. But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people ...

Is it true that Messianics keep covenant circumcision? Is it true they keep the festivals? As for Kabbalah, I do know what Mysticism is.

further more, Kabbalah is an in depth look at scripture like Ezekiel... thru eyes and translations that you are not aware of,in the mother tounge..the Hebrew language is very complex.. these are the keepers of the old ways..

 

[CherubRam]

further more, Kabbalah is an in depth look at scripture like Ezekiel... thru eyes and translations that you are not aware of,in the mother tounge..the Hebrew language is very complex.. these are the keepers of the old ways..

That is what people in Astrology and Numerology also say.

 

[JosephR]

That is what people in Astrology and Numerology also say.

then you dont know where your own religion has its roots...

divination, the sign of Jonah,,ect ect ect

 

[JosephR]

from one new moon to another!!

yes ,new moons, you see your religion is Lunar based,not like the pagan sun worshipers...you are so different then them...

 

[CherubRam]

then you dont know where your own religion has its roots...

divination, the sign of Jonah,,ect ect ect

I am smart enough to know what a parable is. I know the difference between Numerics and Numerology, between Astronomy and Astrology.



Amos 5:26
You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god— which you made for yourselves.

Psalm 64:2
Hide me from the conspiracy of the wicked, from the plots of evildoers.

Isaiah 8:12
“Do not call conspiracy everything this people calls a conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.

Jeremiah 11:9
Then the Lord said to me, “There is a conspiracy among the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 22:25
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they devour people, take treasures and precious things and make many widows within her.

Acts 9:23
After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him,

Acts 23:12
[ The Plot to Kill Paul ] The next morning some Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.

Isaiah 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob’s descendants, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I, the Lord, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

Zechariah 10:2
The idols speak deceitfully, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain. Therefore the people wander like sheep oppressed for lack of a shepherd.

Matthew 15:9
They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”

Mark 7:7
They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’

 

[kayaker]

You are making a whole series of assumptions and mistakes. I will try to starighten this out as best as I can:

1. You seem to think that "racial purity" is important. " a "Semite" is an ancestrally undiluted descendant of Shem, son of Noah, other than with a Gentile (Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, 5). Otherwise, mixed progeny do not carry the ancestral title of the father". Life is not that simple. Even King David, who you keep mentioning, was of mixed heritage. Look up "Ruth".
2. There were no Israelites at the time of the Judah and Tamar story. The Sons of Israel were just an extended family at the time. Where do you think they got their wives from? Where was Tamar from, for that matter? You make her out to be an "Israelite Priestess", by somehow applying the rules of Leviticus (dating 500 years later) backwards in time. But - I really do not understand how you do this tirck, or why.
3. Modern Jews are simply the surviving Israelites. Mostly from the tribe of Judah. I do not see the difficulty here.
4. You assume, for reasons that are unclear, that modern Jews are "Shelanites". Why do you make that assumption? Why not the families of Peretz or Zerach?
5. You assume that there was something worng with the "Shelanites". They are mentioned in Chronicles, as just another clan of the tribe of Judah.

Chair

There is no assumption about Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, in my mind, chair. There is no assumption about Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7, either. The assumption you persistently make is that Moses or Ezra ever rescinded (withdrew, rendered null and void) these "commandments, and the statues, and the judgments, which I (Moses) command thee this day, to do them" (Deuteronomy 7:11 KJV).

Furthermore, the ‘chosen of God’ were the ancestrally intact Shemite/Hebrew/Israelites who Moses was addressing in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3. In these verses, Moses rebuked marital relationships with those “seven nations” including the Canaanites, specific to our discussion as relates to Judah and his Canaanite father-in-law (Genesis 38:1, 2), his Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3), and their Canaanite/Shelanite descendants, contrary to Deuteronomy.

Over a thousand years later in Ezra 9:1, 2, 7, 8, Ezra affirmed God’s chosen were the ancestrally intact Shemite/Hebrew/Israelite “holy seed.” Ezra documented only a “remnant” of ancestrally intact “holy seed” Shemite/Hebrew/Israelites had NOT trespassed Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 since the days of Shem, son of Noah. Ezra’s specific cases testifying to the surviving “holy seed” “remnant” are in the OT, and Ezra testified to their existence culminated in the “remnant” “holy seed.” Moses was resolved for a “thousand generations”, chair. Ezra certainly thought so! Please listen again to Moses a few verses later:

Deuteronomy 7:8 KJV "Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them (Israelites) that love him and keep his commandments (Deuteronomy 7:2, 3) to a thousand generations."​

Did you capture this "keep his commandments (Deuteronomy 7:2, 3) to a thousand generations", chair? Sounds resolute to me. In far fewer than a hundred generations, I gather the clear impression you’ve replaced your Yisrael, Bnei Yisrael (Israelite) heritage as God’s chosen, with the ancestrally ambiguous title, Jew. Do Christians not respect Jews for honoring the Laws of Moses? If I may be so bold chair, it is not me who is making “a whole series of assumptions and mistakes” as you suggest. Please ‘straighten this out as best you can’:

A) Who, when, where, and by whose divine authority in the OT were God’s chosen to be anyone other than ancestrally intact, Shemite/Hebrew Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9)?

B) Who, when, where, and by whose divine authority in the OT was Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 ever rescinded such that Shemite/Hebrew Israelites could marry Canaanites, specifically?

C) Please provide OT examples of ordained marital unions explaining how Ezra’s Shemite/Hebrew/Israelite “remnant” “holy seed” survived ancestrally intact to his day.

D) How long would Ezra’s “holy seed” “remnant” remain ancestrally intact following the days of Ezra?

Please allow me to post individual replies to the five points you brought up. We can discuss your remaining points in chronological order as we move along. I would prefer to reply to each of your points, all fell swoop… but, I risk receiving a respected TOL warning for too long of a post. When you reply to this post, I will enjoy moving on to #1 “racial purity” in your post.

kayaker

 

[nikolai_42]

Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse;(Jew) the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name. (Christian)

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

First of all, it looks like the Lord - in that chapter - is talking about the loss of identity of Israel. The masses would be killed (as you quoted in your OP, but some would be saved and would be called by a "new name". Look at what He says earlier in the chapter :

Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isaiah 65:6-9

So...a promise of judgment, but not of complete destruction. God is talking about the wasting of a people from the standpoint of the whole people...He has hinted at death for most, but a saving of a handful from Jacob and Judah. So what of the disobedient?

But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isaiah 65:11-12

What follows is another comparison of the wicked of Israel and those that serve the Lord :

Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isaiah 65:13-15

So those that are faithful to God would certainly be called by the name of Christ, but where are the wicked? They have been utterly slain. What happened to Israel? They were utterly scattered. They lost their identity. One may well argue for that identity (and there are many who do) but the key here is not the racial or cultural identification - the key here is actually the losing of that identification and the taking on of a spiritual identification. The latter part of that chapter speaks of a new heavens and a new earth.

And this leads to a spiritual interpretation of that "new name" - one which gets closer to the heart of what you are implying (those who follow Christ vs. those who reject Him). It's found here :

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:17

This name is not a carnal one.

In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
Jeremiah 33:15-16

So to claim that the old identification (which was partly to do with the scattering of the tribes) misses the mark is correct. To claim the new name has to do with the Lord Himself is correct. But to then quarrel about genealogies and cultural identities is to fall into the same trap. How is that not pharisaical?

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:62-63

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruiit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 12:24-26

 

[kayaker]

I am unaware of Scripture's confirmation of this. In Yeshua we have no differences and He is our distinctive trait.

Thanks for your patience, IMJ.

Messiah was prophesied to be through Judah. Judah sired three sons via his Canaanite wife: Er, Onan, and Shelah. Only Shelah survived to procreate. Following, Judah also sired twin sons via his daughter-in-law, Tamar. Pharez was the eldest twin, and Pharez is found in the lineage of King David and Jesus as Matthew begins the NT in the third verse of the first chapter, Matthew 1:3 KJV. Realizing "Esrom" was "Hezron" of 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV who was the son of Pharez (1Chronicles 2:3, 4, 5)... it becomes clearer still that Jesus was a descendant of Pharez, eldest twin son of Judah and Tamar. Therefore, Yeshua was a Pharzite, and not a Shelanite.

When one associates the title "Jew" with Judah referring to the arrival of Yeshua... one is implying the ancestral component of being a "Jew". I can appreciate the non-ancestral component of being a "Jew", IMJ... to each their own. However, when one refers to the ancestral component of being a "Jew", then such reference demands ancestral clarity. Jesus was therefore a Pharzite descendant of Judah, prophesied progenitor of Yeshua, and He was distinctly not a Shelanite descendant of Judah.

You might imagine the anticipation and rift between the Pharzites and Shelanites as through whom Yeshua would arrive in those days. And, they were the Shelanite descendants of Judah who instigated the crucifixion of Yeshuah, a Pharzite descendant of Judah. Where the delusion comes into play, IMJ... the Shelanites proclaimed Yeshua was an impostor not being in the lineage of Shelah.

I give you full credit there are authentic Israelites in the nation/state of Israel. By the same token, there are Shelanites as well. The Shelanites duped the ancestrally confused Pharzites into surrendering their Israelite heritage as God's chosen, for the ancestrally ambiguous title of "Jew."

I appreciate your distinction worshipping the God of Israel, IMJ. To my distinction, the God of Israel is not wholly worshipped by the Jews. The God of Israel (people, not land) is the God of the Israelites in Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9.

We Christians agree wholeheartedly through Yeshua there are no ancestral privileges to spiritual eternity. That was the whole point of Yeshua's dialogue with Nicodemus. Such was emphasized by Paul. However, the notion of divine lineage only applied to, and was fulfilled by, Yeshua, the second Adam. The "generations" of Yeshua, His arrival generation, was illustrated by Luke in 3:23-38, and Luke includes Phares and Esrom (Hezron)... among those generations including David (Luke 3:31, 32, 33). You've heard my rendering that Yeshua's arrival "generation" was prophesied in Genesis 4:24 KJV being "seventy and sevenfold" generations from Almighty God. Jesus was the 77th generation from Almighty God, inclusively. The divinity of Jesus is affirmed in these 77 generation being captured in the 'name' of Jesus. This may hint at the notion, "My father and I are one."

Just because the "Jews" have little respect for ancestry embracing the ancestrally ambiguous title "Jew" doesn't mean Yeshua's arrival was via some random act of God among some random group of people. Many Israelites, Pharzites/Zarhites particularly, were duped into believing Yeshuah would arrive via the Shelanite descendants of Judah. But, the Shelanites were/are NOT ancestrally intact "Jews" (Rev 2:9, 3:9) considering Jesus was a Pharzite Jew. And, the Shelanites instigated Jesus' crucifixion to sequester the very dark truth about their ancestry that also goes all the way back to the first few chapters of Genesis.

If you consider Yeshua to be a Jew, the I consider myself to be an adopted Pharzite Jew!

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

UNFINISHED BUSINESS

UNFINISHED BUSINESS

Please allow me a domestic post to settle some unfinished business, chair…

A) Who, when, where, and by whose divine authority in the OT were God’s chosen to be anyone other than ancestrally intact, Shemite/Hebrew Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9)?

ANSWER: The Shemite/Hebrew Israelites were all ancestrally diluted by Ezra’s day, except for Ezra’s “remnant” “holy seed” who “escaped” ancestral dilution (Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV, Ezra 9:8 KJV); while appreciating your astute comment, ‘Life is not that simple.’ Neither you, nor I can produce irrefutable birth records to our OT ancestry. The Israelite chosen of God (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9) were purposeful to continue Adam’s genealogy through four thousand years to a generational endpoint, discussed momentarily. The arrival of Yeshua/Messiah fulfilled this purpose for God’s Adamite/Sethite/Shemite/Hebrew Israelite chosen people from the beginning. Since Yeshua/Messiah’s arrival, the chosen of God will now be those who simply recognize Yeshua/Messiah as the fulfilled mission of God’s chosen Shemite/Hebrew Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3). Since, as you say… “Life is not that simple”, and it hasn’t been since long before Ezra’s day.

B) Who, when, where, and by whose divine authority in the OT was Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 ever rescinded such that Shemite/Hebrew Israelites could marry Canaanites, specifically?

ANSWER: Marriage rebuked within the confines of Deuteronomy was never rescinded. However, Christians being the ‘bride of Christ’ deserves mention. Ezra recognized those rebuked relationships (Ezra 9:1, 2, 7), who were set aside from the congregation of the Lord in Ezra 10:2, 3, as a great trespass. And, that “Life is not that simple” today is a vast understatement, respectfully. Certainly God would provide a way.

The Israelites (less Judah, momentarily; Joseph, a fascinating parallel) transgressed desiring those 32k Midianite (son of Keturah) virgins Moses remorsefully permitted entry into the Israelite congregation of the Lord during the great conquest found in Numbers 31:1, 2, 9, Numbers 31:14 KJV, Numbers 31:17, 18, 35. This possibly supports why Moses never set foot in the Promised Land, a notion worth exploring.

In comparison to the Israelites, Judah transgressed hooking-up with a Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3), daughter of the Canaanite Shuah (Genesis 38:1, 2), son of Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). I proffer Judah’s surviving Canaanite son Shelah, grandson of Shuah, hooked-up with his virgin Midianite cousins (Shuah and Midian were brothers), having witnessed God snuffing out his two elder brothers for their infraction hooking-up with the Israelite, Tamar: Please allow me to introduce you to the ancestral origin of the Shelanites, discussed again momentarily, which brings mother Keturah’s nefarious ancestry into view. If you wish to discuss maternal ancestresses (like Tamar and Ruth), we might also consider Keturah. Another post, perhaps.

C) Please provide OT examples of marital unions explaining how Ezra’s Shemite/Hebrew/Israelite “remnant” “holy seed” “escaped” remaining ancestrally intact to his day.

ANSWER: Consider Abraham’s relationship with his half-sister, Sarah. Consider Abraham’s infamous quest for a wife for Isaac (Genesis 24:2, 3, 4). Consider Isaac’s marriage to his cousin, Rebekah. Consider Isaac’s and Rebekah’s dire concerns for a wife for Jacob (Genesis 28:46, 29:1). Consider Jacob’s marriage to his cousin/sisters Leah and Rachel. Consider Tamar playing the harlot with her father-in-law Judah (already discussed, Genesis 38:24, Leviticus 21:9). Consider Ruth with Boaz (discussed another post, perhaps).

In contrast, please consider the impostor Shelanites’ argument in John 8:41 KJV seeking the crucifixion of the Pharzite Yeshua: Abraham was married to Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), grandmother of the Shelanites and Midianites. And, Judah was married to the Canaanite Shuah’s, Canaanitess daughter (Genesis 38:1, 2, 12, 1Chronicles 2:3). Keturah was grandmother of the Shelanites and Midianites, particular to this discussion. Consider the covenant of marriage overriding Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 within Talmudic Judaism (includes Shelanites); and, consider the importance of the mother dictating “Jewishness” from an ancestral perspective in Judaism. Please bend the knee to mother Keturah, the great harlot, and ancestress to the Shelanite/Midianite impostors who also call themselves “Jews”. Keturah is ancestress to those who discount Israelite heritage (John 8:33 KJV, Luke 3:7, 8, Acts 7, Stephen knew), with whom you are sleeping, chair. Do indeed, take note of Yeshua’s end-time prophesy in Matthew 24:32, 33, 34, 35 with particular emphasis on Matthew 24:36, 37, 38, 39… a trip back in time worth re-exploring, btw.

D) How long would Ezra’s “holy seed” “remnant” remain ancestrally intact following the days of Ezra?

ANSWER: The only purpose for the “remnant” “holy seed” (beginning with Adam and Eve via Seth…) to remain intact was to yield God’s second son (Luke 3:38). Yeshua/Messiah was prophesied to arrive 77-fold (“seventy and sevenfold” Genesis 4:24) generations from Almighty God, illustrated by Luke in Luke 3:23-38. Yeshua is the 77th generation from God, inclusively, fulfilling Ezra’s futuristic “remnant” “holy seed” who “escaped” ancestral dilution rebuked in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3. Those who simply recognize Yeshua as the second son of God (Luke 3:38), the 77th from God inclusively (Genesis 4:24), are thereby assimilated into the congregation of the Lord. Beyond this adoption via the simple realization Jesus is Yeshua/Messiah, ancestral records are to no avail, even if we could produce them. And, we are all ancestrally diluted in violation of Deuteronomy, although I cannot say there are no ancestrally intact Shelanites. As you suggested chair, “Life IS not that simple,” life was complicated long before the days of Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:6 KJV, Ezra 9:7 KJV, Ezra 9: 14 KV.

To the best of my limited knowledge, the only other option for one to remain in compliance with Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, other than through adoption, is for one to not procreate. And, such was the main component of the curse of Cain in Genesis 4:12, 13, 14, 15, KJV, another thread, perhaps. Israelite ancestry and Hebrew birth records were only purposeful to produce and authenticate Yeshua beginning in Genesis 2 with Adam… Seth... Shem… Eber (Hebrew, Genesis 10:21)… Abram/Abraham… Isaac… Jacob-Israel… Judah… Pharez… David… Yeshua/Messiah. Outside and beyond this purpose to produce Yeshuah/Messiah, ancestry is of no significance, other than to the Shelanites who still await their ‘messiah’ from within their likely intact ‘Keturahite’ (Midianite/Shelanite) lineage (Matthew 24:15, 28). Who was Keturah? Another time, perhaps.

kayaker

 

[patrick jane]

First of all, it looks like the Lord - in that chapter - is talking about the loss of identity of Israel. The masses would be killed (as you quoted in your OP, but some would be saved and would be called by a "new name". Look at what He says earlier in the chapter :

Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.
Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isaiah 65:6-9

So...a promise of judgment, but not of complete destruction. God is talking about the wasting of a people from the standpoint of the whole people...He has hinted at death for most, but a saving of a handful from Jacob and Judah. So what of the disobedient?

But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Isaiah 65:11-12

What follows is another comparison of the wicked of Israel and those that serve the Lord :

Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Isaiah 65:13-15

So those that are faithful to God would certainly be called by the name of Christ, but where are the wicked? They have been utterly slain. What happened to Israel? They were utterly scattered. They lost their identity. One may well argue for that identity (and there are many who do) but the key here is not the racial or cultural identification - the key here is actually the losing of that identification and the taking on of a spiritual identification. The latter part of that chapter speaks of a new heavens and a new earth.

And this leads to a spiritual interpretation of that "new name" - one which gets closer to the heart of what you are implying (those who follow Christ vs. those who reject Him). It's found here :

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:17

This name is not a carnal one.

In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
Jeremiah 33:15-16

So to claim that the old identification (which was partly to do with the scattering of the tribes) misses the mark is correct. To claim the new name has to do with the Lord Himself is correct. But to then quarrel about genealogies and cultural identities is to fall into the same trap. How is that not pharisaical?

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:62-63

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruiit.
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 12:24-26

as a casual observer here, and i am NOT disputing or arguing what The Bible says or attacking anyones interpretaion. i don't think i am jewish, but I even get offended by people stressing or emphasising scripture that speaks of the "wickedness and rebellion" of Jews or Hebrews or tribes of Israel. in a broader sense, isn't it ALL OF US ? i mean, isn't God actually speaking to EVERYBODY, EVERY TIME. i also don't care for Jews that act as if theyare "chosen" or "special". why can't some people see past ancestery and all of those details, of which we can never know all of. jew, gentile, this, that and the other. again, i'm not knocking anyone's research and study, or impyling anything in particular. i guess i'm from the church of "what's happening now" - :juggle:

 

[chair]

Please allow me a domestic post to settle some unfinished business, chair…

A) Who, when, where, and by whose divine authority in the OT were God’s chosen to be anyone other than ancestrally intact, Shemite/Hebrew Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:6, 7, 8, 9)?

ANSWER: The Shemite/Hebrew Israelites were all ancestrally diluted by Ezra’s day, except for Ezra’s “remnant” “holy seed” who “escaped” ancestral dilution (Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV, Ezra 9:8 KJV); ...

1. The Biiblical laws of Deuteronomy did not exist at the time of Jacob and his sons. Trying to apply those laws or what is reported in Ezra's time is anachronistic. It was not even possible for the original 12 sons to marry withing the Israelite nation, and there was no such nation at that point, and they would have had to marry their sisters.

2. Who did Moses marry? Or Joseph?

3. The verses you quote in Deuteronomy refer to a "Holy People"- you have assumed that this means a genetically pure people. You decided up front that this should be a genetic (or racial) thing, and you manage to read it into whatever text is in front of you.

4. At the first glance, it seems that Ezra is talking about some racial purity issue. But that approach to the text doesn't make much sense. We know that Ruth joined the Israelites, and there are reports of people joining in the Book of Esther as well.

I suggest that the problem is one of assimilation. They married foriegn women who did not join the Jewish people (what is called "converting" today in English).

5. I've actually losttrack of what the point of thsi discussion is. I will remind you, however, that we get to decide who we are.

 

[kayaker]

1. The Biiblical laws of Deuteronomy did not exist at the time of Jacob and his sons. Trying to apply those laws or what is reported in Ezra's time is anachronistic. It was not even possible for the original 12 sons to marry withing the Israelite nation, and there was no such nation at that point, and they would have had to marry their sisters.

Who did Moses get these laws come from, chair? Who gave Moses the big Ten? Granted, such was written by Moses after the days of Jacob and his sons. Moses established the anachronistic continuity of God the Promise Keeper’s ‘faithfulness’ and “mercy”, yesterday, today, and tomorrow, quite clearly in Deuteronomy 7:8, 9. Ezra clearly inferred Mosaic Law upon the sons of Jacob-Israel”

Ezra 9:7 KJV “Since the days of our fathers have we been in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, and our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face as it is this day.”​

Didn’t Noah find “grace in the eyes of the Lord” being a “just man” “perfect in his generations (HINT!)” who “walked with God”, before Moses ever wrote Genesis, chair (Genesis 6:8, 9)? Didn’t Shem and Japheth walk into Noah’s tent backwards and covered before the laws of Leviticus 18:8 KJV, Leviticus 20:11 KJV, Deuteronomy 27:20 KJV, Leviticus 22:30 were written?

The sons of Jacob were not called Jacobites for a reason, chair. They were a nation of Israelites. More on the wives of Jacob’s sons’ later as you subtly justify Judah hooking up with a Canaanite. The Gentiles (descendants of Japheth, Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, Genesis 10:5 KJV) were sanctioned to procreate with the Shemites. So saith Noah in Genesis 9:27 KJV who was a “just man” according to his “generations.” If you don’t believe Ezra, do you believe Noah?

2. Who did Moses marry? Or Joseph?

I encourage you to sharpen your pencil, chair. Moses’ father-in-law was Jethro (Exodus 3:1 KJV), also known as Jether, the son of Gideon (Judges 8:13, 20), who was the son of Joash (Judges 6:29, 7:14, 8:13), who was the son of Becher (1Chronicles 7:6), who was the son of Benjamin, son of Jacob-Israel. Moses’ father-in-law was an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin, if this means anything to you, as was apostle Paul a Benjamite, the second Moses. Was Moses’ wife “smitten” with “black skin” according to your racist rabbi’s Rab and Samuel, endorsed by Rashi in the Talmud? Aaron and Miriam challenged Moses on account of his wife (Numbers 12:1, 2), and the Lord had a ‘come to Jesus meeting’ with those two! But, you don’t have a problem with Judah’s Canaanitess wife? Furthermore, Moses is not in the lineage of David, or Jesus.

Joseph was ‘christened’ Zaphnath-paaneah by the old Pharaoh who admired, and undoubtedly loved Joseph as a totally trusted, first-born son. The old Pharaoh even selected Joseph’s wife who was the priestess Asenath, daughter of Potipherah, priest of On (Genesis 41:45), the capital of lower Egypt. Who were these people Joseph wound up among, chair? The old Pharaoh didn’t even balk when Joseph spoke of God giving him peace (Genesis 41:15, 16). How did Moses tell the Israelites to deal with the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and the Jebusites in Deuteronomy 7:5? Well, I suppose who Joseph wound up among weren't any of those folk! LOL! Jacob and the gang seemed quite welcome, too... They seemed to all prosper along fine together (Exodus 1:7, 9), until...

After Joseph died (Exodus 1:6), please contrast this old Pharaoh with the “new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph” (Exodus 1:8), obviously very new to the area. Who was this new Pharaoh, chair? Ask Ezekiel 31:2, 3, 8, 9… the new Pharaoh/Assyrian was equivalent to the serpent in Eden. I suggest he was Asshur (‘father’ of the Assyrians), the long-lived son of Ham’s wife who was pregnant before the ark launched. For all you know, Joseph’s wife was a Gentile. And, such was likely the ancestral case considering Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4 Genesis 10:5 KJV as Noah, perfect in his generations, sanctioned Gentile-Shemite procreation in Genesis 9:27 KJV. Do you think Abraham’s vast and extended Hebrew family just fell off the map? Do you think the Gentile descendants of Japheth vanished, too? And, you wonder who Jacob’s sons married? Where did Jacob’s wife come from? That one’s a slam-dunk, don’t you think? Have you ever heard the expression, ‘strain a gnat, and swallow a camel’?

3. The verses you quote in Deuteronomy refer to a "Holy People"- you have assumed that this means a genetically pure people. You decided up front that this should be a genetic (or racial) thing, and you manage to read it into whatever text is in front of you.

It was Ezra, author of Chronicles of all Books, who said:

Ezra 9:1, 2, KJV “Now when these things were done, the princes came to me saying, The people of Israel (Israelites, including Judah), and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites (think Judah’s wife), the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2) For they (Israelites) have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons (Deuteronomy 7::1, 2, 3): so that the HOLY SEED (Israelites) have mingled themselves (diluted ancestral integrity) with the peoples of those lands (Moses forbade, Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6): yea, the hands of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass”​

The assumption is yours founded in lack of knowledge, chair. When you get a little sharper in scripture… you might not be so presumptuous as Ezra (author of Chronicles, no less) inferred the Laws of Moses all the way back to Jacob-Israel and his sons in Ezra 9:7 KJV. Meanwhile your Shelanite/Sephardic buddies cling to marriage exonerating Judah’s Canaanitess wife that you are ancestrally indifferent about. Do you rebuke Judah’s relationship with a Canaanitess wife?

4. At the first glance, it seems that Ezra is talking about some racial purity issue. But that approach to the text doesn't make much sense. We know that Ruth joined the Israelites, and there are reports of people joining in the Book of Esther as well.

At face value chair, Ezra is crystal clear. Try a second glance. It is you, and most Christians, who subscribe to the ‘Jewish fable’ that Ruth was a blood Moabitess. I’ll touch on Ruth, momentarily. Ruth is significant being in the lineage of David and Jesus.

I suggest that the problem is one of assimilation. They married foriegn women who did not join the Jewish people (what is called "converting" today in English).

Wasn’t Ezra rebuking marriage with women of those lands in Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7 affirming and inferring the command of Moses in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, chair? A leopard cannot change his spots, and an Ethiopian cannot change the color of his skin. You’re talking mindset conversion as Moses said would happen in Deuteronomy 7:4 KJV AFTER hooking-up with those rebuked people of Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6. Those Israelite trespassers had certainly ‘converted’ (Deuteronomy 7:4 KJV)! And, they ‘converted’ back in Ezra 10:3, 4. Take a look at Psalms 19:7 KJV while you reflect on Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7.

5. I've actually losttrack of what the point of thsi discussion is. I will remind you, however, that we get to decide who we are.

Most certainly “we get to decide who we are.” Wasn’t Jesus a Jew? That’s why I’m a Pharzite Jew, I follow a Pharzite Jew, I’ve been cut, celebrate Passover, and circumcise that pig before throwing him in the smoker. And, I have more respect for your Israelite heritage than you do. Now, backing up to #1 of your prior post:

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

RACIAL PURITY (v. ANCESTAL INTEGRITY), and Ruth

RACIAL PURITY (v. ANCESTAL INTEGRITY), and Ruth

You are making a whole series of assumptions and mistakes. I will try to starighten this out as best as I can:

1. You seem to think that "racial purity" is important. " a "Semite" is an ancestrally undiluted descendant of Shem, son of Noah, other than with a Gentile (Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, 5). Otherwise, mixed progeny do not carry the ancestral title of the father". Life is not that simple. Even King David, who you keep mentioning, was of mixed heritage. Look up "Ruth".
2.
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4.

So, Talmudic Judaism has convinced folk King David was a mamzer, ‘illegitimate’ being politically correct? Such lies are founded in ancestral ignorance, chair. Uninspired Talmudic Judaism teaches Judah MARRIED Tamar to make an ‘honest woman’ out of her, to ‘white-wash’ David as king, contrary to Genesis 38:26 KJV… but, can’t ‘white-wash’ Jesus as Yeshua/Messiah? Thereby, David’s kingship was only ordained because Talmudist rabbis ‘swept up’ behind a faulty, ‘has been’ Almighty God? Parallel to vicariously slandering the ‘name’ of David via the alleged harlot, Tamar; Talmudic rabbis also slandered Ruth’s ancestry to ‘white-wash’ her as a ‘convert’ into the ancestral abyss, aka a “Jew”. Maybe Almighty God needs to submit to the supreme authority of the sexist and racist rabbis Rab, Samuel, and Rashi. They exhibit supreme divine authority extrapolating Ham sodomized and castrated Noah out of Genesis 9:22 KJV. God missed an opportune moment to institute the covenant of circumcision, LOL! Besides, had Judah married Tamar… it was still after the obvious recorded fact (Genesis 38:24 KJV), think?

I can’t begin to express my admiration for Tamar assuming the risk of death by fire to serve her God of Israel. Meanwhile, Christians gloss over the utter magnitude of Tamar’s endeavor, an Israelite heroine matriarch in the Bible, as Ruth was courageous, btw. It is no wonder Christians and Israelite Jews find difficulty grasping Ezra’s historical Israelite “remnant to escape” ancestral dilution (Ezra 9:8 KJV)… sexist Shelanite ‘Jewish’ fables. Ruth’s case was also quite unique, serving another aspect of her Israelite God’s great plan for salvation (Deuteronomy 7:9 KJV)… through His chosen people of Jacob-Israel, the Israelites.

The notion of “racial purity” actually has a negative Shelanite ‘Jewish’ connotation, chair. Maybe the expression “ancestral integrity” more accurately serves the purpose of this discussion. You at least have a flicker of respect for your Levite/Davidic heritage. Besides… if all my freckles grew together, I don’t think you’d call me a white boy, LOL!

Who went into Egypt, chair (Genesis 46:8 KJV)? Who came out (Exodus 1:5, 6, 7)? Was Moses a racist in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, chair? Who was Moses then giving his pre-conquest command to in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3 illuminated in Deuteronomy 7:8 KJV? Were Ezra and the boys sexist in Ezra 10:3 KJV? God forbade ‘discrimination’, chair… might take another look at the mark of Cain in Genesis 4:15 KJV that neither Christians, nor Jews have figured out. Do you suggest Moses was NOT preserving Semite/Hebrew/Israelite ‘ancestral integrity’ in Deuteronomy, reiterated and inferred upon the patriarchs over a thousand years later by Ezra? Then, maybe we need to take a closer look at Ruth, as you suggest.

"Life" WAS "that simple" in Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, chair. What happened? It begins with the letter, “MARRIAGE”. Fret not that Christians legitimately mock you for having no birth records for the last couple thousand years, chair. The ancestral integrity of God’s chosen, the Israelites (not ancestrally ambiguous “Jews”) was all but totally diluted by a thousand years after Deuteronomy as Ezra discovered. Within Jewish traditions, do Jews rehearse Ezra’s humbling repentant prayer to the Almighty God of Israel for the Yisreal/Bnei Yisreal MARRIAGE trespasses of Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7? Listen to Ezra 9:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, KJV. It’s not complicated.

The vast majority of Christians still echo that ancestrally ambiguous Jewish fable. I very simply repented chair, when such was brought to my attention, after exploring the Scripture, and came to the embarrassingly obvious truth. I maintain “Moabite(ss)” was a geographical title, not an ancestral one. Let's cut to the quick on this one also, chair: Who, where, when, and by whose divine authority in the OT was the Law of Moses in Deuteronomy 23:3, 6, affirmed and inferred by Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7 over a thousand years later… who rescinded Mosaic Law, chair? Rabbis Rab, Samuel, and Rashi in their infinite sexist, racist wisdom? Who was the author of the Book of Ruth? And, Jews and Christians hold said unknown author as an authority over Moses and Ezra assuming “Moabite(ss)” was an ancestral title? When did this slanderous lie begin, chair? It was before David’s day, I suggest.

Ruth was a geographical Moabite from that geographic area, born of Israelite parents, most likely a ‘daughter’ of Reuben who inherited that area. Sharpen your pencil and take a look at Deuteronomy 2:9, Numbers 21:24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, Numbers 32, just for starters.

There were most certainly 32k Midiante virgins ‘mingled’ among the Israelites during the time and occupying the homeland of Ruth (Numbers 31:1, 2, 9, 12, 14, 17, 18, 35). I proffer Ruth’s sister-in-law Orpah was such a Midianitess following strange gods (Deuteronomy 7:2, 3, 4). That Midianite-Israelite dilution and corruption compelled the ancestrally intact Israelite widow Ruth to leave, following her Israelite God she saw in Naomi and her husband and sons. The area of Bethelehem-JUDAH where Naomi was from was undoubtedly infiltrated with circumcised, ‘mingled’ Shelanites. Count on it… Ruth depended on the ancestral knowledge of Naomi checking out Boaz. And, Boaz checked Ruth out, too (Ruth 2:10, 11)!

I’m not suggesting there wasn’t a Moabite influx later, chair… Solomon lost a kingdom hooking-up with his Moabite hotties, etc. So, please sit back and ask yourself, chair… considering the dire plight of King Solomon over his Moabite hotties, etc.: Does it not stand to simple reason, in the anachronistic continuity of God’s righteousness for “a thousand generations” (Deuteronomy 7:9 KJV); that Ruth’s wealthy and influential husband Boaz would have met a similar fate as King Solomon? I respectfully submit Israelite Jews and Christians have been long mesmerized over an uninspired Shelanite Jewish fable about ‘converting’ into ancestral abyss. Thereby, Israelite Jews and Christians blindly co-sponsor transgressions against Mosaic Law (Deuteronomy 23:3, 6), and inherently justify the Shelanite ‘Jewish’ self-serving notion the covenant of MARRIAGE is supreme to Deuteronomy 7:2, 3, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 7.

Think of Judah’s Canaanitess WIFE’s Shelanite descendants who instigated the crucifixion. Consider Shelah’s great-grandmother Keturah’s MARRIAGE to Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Jesus CORROBORATED Mosaic Law revealing the “seed” of Abraham (via Keturah’s sons Midian and Shuah) were NOT “Abraham’s children”, chair (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 8:39 KJV). The Shelanites instigated Jesus’ crucifixion to shut Him up for telling your Israelite ancestors the ancestral truth about the Shelanites in John 8:12-47. Christians and Israelite Jews will realize the Shelanites hiding in the ancestral abyss threw the Israelites David and Jesus under the bus when the fog settles.

Furthermore, Boaz (aka, Booz) was the son of Salmon… son of Hezron, son of PHAREZ, of the TRIBE of Judah (1Chronicles 2:3, 4, 5, 4:1). Pharez is ancestor to David and Jesus (Ruth 4:21, 22, Matthew 1:5 KJV, Luke 3:31, 32, 33). Also of extreme importance, Boaz was related to Naomi’s husband’s (Elimelech’s) family (Ruth 2:1). Naomi’s husband Elimelech was an “Ephrathite” (Ruth 1:1,2). Therefore, Boaz was also an Ephrathite in the Shelanite-infested area of Bethlehem-JUDAH. The Ephrathites were related to ‘Elkanah… son of Zuph,’ “an Ephrathite” (1Samuel 1:1 KJV, 1Samuel 1:2 KJV). Samuel’s father Elkanah was in the lineage of the Ephrathites, from “mount Ephraim”. And, the name Ephraim, son of Joseph, is quite significant to the story of Boaz and Ruth (Genesis 48:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19).

So, the bottom line chair; the Ephrathite-Israelite Boaz, ancestor to David and Jesus, had no legitimate Israelite son, or such would have been found in the infamous Hebrew records. No son of Boaz… no King David… no Jesus, speaking of Ezra’s ‘remnant.’ Boaz was also a descendant of Ephraim, son of Joseph and his priestess wife Asenath (I proffer Gentile), appointed by the “old Pharaoh” (Genesis 41:44, 45) who adored Joseph as a son, and blessed Jacob and sons (Genesis 45:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25). Therefore, through the marriage of the Israelite Ruth with the Ephrathite-Israelite Boaz, the descendants of Joseph were thereby rejoined with the house of Israel through Boaz’s and Ruth’s Ephrathite-Israelite son Obed, found in the lineage of King David and Jesus (Ruth 4:21, Matthew 1:5 KJV, Luke 3:31, 32, 33).

But, Talmudic Shelanite ‘Jews’ have folks duped that Obed was a mamzer (‘illegitimate’), since they propagated and perpetuate the ‘Jewish fable’ Ruth was a blood Moabitess??? Therefore, David was a mamzer (‘illegitimate’) founded on an assumed ancestral title, from an unknown author of the Book of Ruth, overriding Mosaic Law inspired by the God of Israel, Promise Keeper for a thousand generations? Do you sincerely believe an uninspired Shelanite, of Canaanite maternal ancestry (Canaanite mother, and Keturah), can objectively render Shemite/Hebrew/Israelite/Pharzite/Ephrathite ancestry in Scripture, chair? Whose side do you think the Shelanites are on? They instigated the crucifixion of a Pharzite Jew! David is only king of the Shelanites because they ‘white-washed’ Tamar, and ‘converted’ Ruth by MARRIAGE. Tamar and Ruth are two phenomenal pure Israelite heroines upholding the ancestry of God’s chosen Israelites. They assumed great risks, against all odds, and trusted their God of Israel… speaking of ‘remnant.’

Ruth, a ‘daughter’ of Reuben, courageously and faithfully left her Midianite-‘mingled’ home (Ruth 2:10, 11) trusting HER God of Israel she saw in Naomi. Thereby, Joseph vicariously rejoined Israel through Ruth’s and her Ephrathite husband Boaz’s son Obed, in Bethlehem-Judah, likely infiltrated with circumcised Shelanites. Likewise, the Israelite Levite priestess Tamar courageously and faithfully left her Midianite-‘mingled’ home (Genesis 38:11 KJV) trusting HER God of Israel she saw in Judah, prophesied progenitor of Messiah. Thereby, the patriarchs of Israel were reunited… enter Pharez (1Chronicles 2:3, 4, 5, 4:1) of the TRIBE of Judah, and found in the lineage of David and Jesus (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:31, 32, 33). Might take a look at Ruth 4:12 KJV, chair. Might also take a look at Ezekiel 37 with particular emphasis on Ezekiel 37:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21…

With only a mustard seed of faith, chair… Or, is your faith in the likes of the ‘inspired and objective’ ancient sexist, racist rabbis teaching Shelanite replacement theology?

Thanks for your post including your point #1 regarding racial purity (v. ancestral integrity), and Ruth, chair. I may find time to respond to your other points.

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

So, Talmudic Judaism has convinced folk King David was a mamzer, ‘illegitimate’ being politically correct?

Ruth, a ‘daughter’ of Reuben, courageously and faithfully left her Midianite-‘mingled’ home (Ruth 2:10, 11) trusting HER God of Israel she saw in Naomi. Thereby, Joseph vicariously rejoined Israel through Ruth’s and her Ephrathite husband Boaz’s son Obed, in Bethlehem-Judah, likely infiltrated with circumcised Shelanites. Likewise, the Israelite Levite priestess Tamar courageously and faithfully left her Midianite-‘mingled’ home (Genesis 38:11 KJV) trusting HER God of Israel she saw in Judah, prophesied progenitor of Messiah. Thereby, the patriarchs of Israel were reunited… enter Pharez (1Chronicles 2:3, 4, 5, 4:1) of the TRIBE of Judah, and found in the lineage of David and Jesus (Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:31, 32, 33). Might take a look at Ruth 4:12 KJV, chair. Might also take a look at Ezekiel 37 with particular emphasis on Ezekiel 37:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21…

With only a mustard seed of faith, chair… Or, is your faith in the likes of the ‘inspired and objective’ ancient sexist, racist rabbis teaching Shelanite replacement theology?

Thanks for your post including your point #1 regarding racial purity (v. ancestral integrity), and Ruth, chair. I may find time to respond to your other points.

kayaker

My apology for an anachronistic error, chair. There were no Midianites where Tamar was from, at that time. Midianite virgins were brought into the Israelite congregation soon after during the great conquest. Tamar left her Israelite home as a Levite Priestess seeking a husband, son of Judah, prophesied progenitor of Messiah. Tamar was trusting her God of Israel following Judah into a strange land that included Canaanites, to say the least (Genesis 38:1, 2).

kayaker

 

[chair]

So, Talmudic Judaism has convinced folk King David was a mamzer, ‘illegitimate’ being politically correct? Such lies are founded in ancestral ignorance, chair. Uninspired Talmudic ...

I know you spent considerable time writing the above, but frankly, I found it difficult to follow your rather excited presentation. You have decided that the "Shelanites" are an issue, the the Talmud and its Rabbis are bad news and that genetics are what Israel is all about.

I don't think I can convince you to think otherwise. You are always going to cherry pick this or that source to shore up your ideas.

I never even heard of this "Shelanite" issue before you showed up here..

I do suggest that you go back and read some basic Biblical texts, Genesis and Exodus, and try to set aside your fixations. Things are not what you would like them to be.

You might start with this:

Exodus 12
17 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel. 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread.”​

Thanks for your efforts, and my apologies for not responding in detail.

Chair

 

[patrick jane]

I know you spent considerable time writing the above, but frankly, I found it difficult to follow your rather excited presentation. You have decided that the "Shelanites" are an issue, the the Talmud and its Rabbis are bad news and that genetics are what Israel is all about.

I don't think I can convince you to think otherwise. You are always going to cherry pick this or that source to shore up your ideas.

I never even heard of this "Shelanite" issue before you showed up here..

I do suggest that you go back and read some basic Biblical texts, Genesis and Exodus, and try to set aside your fixations. Things are not what you would like them to be.

You might start with this:

Exodus 12
17 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel. 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread.”​

Thanks for your efforts, and my apologies for not responding in detail.

Chair

the "rules" of that festival mean nothing today

 

[kayaker]

I know you spent considerable time writing the above, but frankly, I found it difficult to follow your rather excited presentation. You have decided that the "Shelanites" are an issue, the the Talmud and its Rabbis are bad news and that genetics are what Israel is all about.

I don't think I can convince you to think otherwise. You are always going to cherry pick this or that source to shore up your ideas.

I never even heard of this "Shelanite" issue before you showed up here..

Indeed Chair, I do spend considerable time exploring the depths of scripture to compose such posts. As a ‘new kid in town,’ this is not my ‘first rodeo’ having tangoed with MDiv/PhD theologians in my walk, and explored the OT on Jewish sites. “Shelanite” is an official title in the OT, btw (Numbers 26:19 KJV, Num 26:20 KJV). Rest assured, I do appreciate your enduring patience, and the patience of this audience.

The Shelanites are most definitely an issue, chair. They are those who gave your title “Jew” a bad name. And, with all due respect to you and my Christian peers… the significance of the Shelanites is original to my finding, although in the Bible. Most Christians embrace the notion the “Jews” instigated the crucifixion. Such is painting with a large, ancestral brush referencing an ancestrally ambiguous title, throwing you out with the baptismal water.

Examining scriptural ancestry has readily led me to the simple deduction the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife, who hide in the abyss of the ancestrally ambiguous title, “Jew”… the circumcised Shelanites infiltrated the true synagogues. You wouldn’t know this being less familiar with the NT, as Christians are with the OT. The Shelanites were the instigators sequestering One who knew and spoke the truth of their unqualified ancestry to render the Books of Moshe (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).

The Shelanites, and deluded followers, perpetuate the myth/fable, the utter lie that David was a mamzer (‘illegitimate’) finding Ruth in his ancestry. Meanwhile, Israelite Jews and Christians wander in the dark? The Shelanites exploit the geographical title Moabite, in the Book of Ruth, to drive wedges in patrilineal Israelite heritage. Have you ever heard Judah’s marriage to a Canaanite discredited in Judaism? No wonder… the Shelanites ‘Jews’, your ‘early synagogue fathers’, are only maternally related to David via Judah’s Canaanite wife. I’ve debated with Christians who uphold Judah’s relationship via marriage. All the while, they do not realize, by default, they are casting shadows on Tamar, mother to Pharez, found in the lineage of David and Jesus. David’s arrival wasn’t some coin-toss, good people. David wasn’t the end result of an array of random, sperm of the moment conceptions.

The Shelanite agenda is to denounce paternal Israelite ancestry, focusing on the covenant of marriage as supreme to Deuteronomy 7:2, 3, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7. I’m not suggesting there were not deluded Israelite followers of Shelanite replacement theology contributing to the crucifixion conspiracy. Apostle Paul (among others including Stephen and John the Baptist) was a Benjamite who defected from Talmudism.

The Talmud and its Rabbis, who you surrender your God-given Israelite heritage to, do not have exclusive rights space-docking with God; any more than major Christian sects profess, Chair. You hear nothing of Jesus in Talmudism as you’ve offered; and, I say further that you’ll hear even less about “Shelanites” in this great apostasy. To my finding, Shelanite ‘Jews’ harbor the belief your Israelite ancestors forfeited their ‘chosen’ status, particularly as relates to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7; and, the Shelanite ‘Jews’ became Ezra’s ‘remnant’ usurping God’s ‘chosen’ status long held by Israel. By discrediting Israelites like Boaz and Ruth, the Shelanites can now offer redemption via ‘conversion’ into the ancestrally ambiguous title, Jew. Are you an Israelite first, and then a Jew? Or, have you forfeited your esteemed Israelite heritage for the ancestrally ambiguous title, Jew?

Unfortunately, you’ll hear nothing of the Shelanites from Christianity, also mesmerized by Shelanite ‘Jewish’ fables, Chair. Coincidentally, you WILL hear the mother establishes “Jewishness” in Judaism… speaking of Judah’s wife, and Abraham’s second wife, Keturah. But, when the subject of ancestry comes up… the discussion fades into the racial abyss, or winds up arguing the absence of Israelite birth records, which were all but non-existent 2,400 years ago in Ezra’s day.

The Shelanites, in relatively benign fashion, assimilated into the OT, and into your ancient synagogues, Chair. God slew Shelah’s two elder brothers Er, and Onan, that should be a huge red flag! Furthermore, Ezra EXCLUDED Shelah (elder to Pharez), AND “The sons of Shelah the son of Judah…” (1Chronicles 4:21, 22, 23) FROM Ezra’s TRIBAL roster of Judah in 1Chronicles 4:1 KJV. I proffer the Shelanites were the original, ancestrally ambiguous “Jews.” The Shelanites, hiding behind the ancestrally ambiguous title, “Jew”, only came into the spotlight in Jesus’ days. Jesus knew who the Shelanites were, Chair (Revelation 2:9, 3:9); but, I sadly doubt you’ll come across a Christian who can document this Shelanite distinction, unfortunately.

You suggest I’m cherry-picking scripture. If I’ve not documented something of concern to you, please let me know, Chair. If I may be so bold: Israelite Jews and Christians are duped and walking in the dark on the origin and significance of the Shelanite “Jews” you guys are sleeping with, who instigated the crucifixion of God’s Messenger of Truth. Am I cherry-picking? Or, are the Israelite Jews and Christians glossing over scripture, wandering in the ancestral abyss?

I do suggest that you go back and read some basic Biblical texts, Genesis and Exodus, and try to set aside your fixations. Things are not what you would like them to be.

You might start with this:
Exodus 12
17 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And anyone, whether foreigner or native-born, who eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel. 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread.”

I appreciate your suggestion to familiarize myself with the Books of Moshe. The OT has been the almost exclusive source of my argument, Chair. I proffer the fixation is yours on the ancestrally ambiguous title “Jew.” Are you not cherry-picking scripture glossing over Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, that Ezra inferred “Since the days of our fathers have we (Israelites) been in a great trespass” in Ezra 9:1, 2, 3, 7? Have Israelite Jews and Christians glossed over Noah being “perfect in his generations (HINT!), and Noah walked with God” (Genesis 6:9 KJV)? Do you understand the significance of Noah, God’s first geneticist, drawing a line in the sand: Shemites and Gentiles (Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, Gen 10:5 KJV) on one side… and, Ham, et al, on the other? Do you think Cain would have been redeemed eating unleaven bread for the rest of his shortened life (Genesis 4:23 KJV)? Furthermore, a Shelanites can eat unleaven bread ‘till eternity… but, he cannot change his nefarious ancestry, Chair. It would take a divine entity sent by Almighty God the creator of DNA to perform such a genetic miracle… and, Jesus was such a genetic healer.

The Shelanites carry on the traditions of your ‘fathers’ Chair, and call themselves “Jews” as do you. But, they are not Israel… they are Jews.

Thanks for your efforts, and my apologies for not responding in detail.

Chair

Thanks for your candid reply Chair… the pleasure is totally mine. I’ll gladly accept your apology for lack of detail, if you’ll accept my verbosity!

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SHELANITES?

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SHELANITES?

Who specifically instigated the crucifixion of Yeshua/Messiah? I conclude the Shelanite descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife:

John 8:30, 31, 32, 33, KJV “As he (Yeshua) spake these words, many believed on him. 31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye (believers) continue in my word (keep listening), then are ye my disciples indeed; 32) And ye (believers) shall know the truth (Jesus is about to unveil a truth), and the truth shall make you free. 33) They (Yeshua’s detractors among His believers) answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?”​

‘They’ are Abraham’s “seed,” yet Abraham sired progeny via Hagar (Ishmael), Sarah (Isaac), and Keturah (Shuah, Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4; Judah’s father-in-law Genesis 38:1, 2, particular to this discussion). And, Abraham sired “sons” via concubines while married to Keturah (Genesis 25:6 KJV). Since Yeshua’s maternally elusive detractors said they were never in bondage, ‘they’ were NOT descendants of Sarah =>Isaac => Jacob-Israel => Israelites who were clearly in bondage in Egypt. I’m not suggesting Yeshua’s detractors were never in Egypt among the Israelites; I’m suggesting ‘they’ were never in bondage with the Israelites in Egypt. A simple deduction: Israelite Jews did NOT instigate the crucifixion.

The Ishmaelites were not in bondage in Egypt, yet the Ishmaelites were the ‘seed of Abraham,’ deserving further clarification. Nonetheless, the fundamental point thus far is Yeshua’s detractors were definitely NOT Israelite-Jews.

John 8:37 KJV “I (Yeshua) know that ye (detractors) are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.”​

Yeshua affirmed ‘they’ were “Abraham’s seed,” but ‘they’ didn’t want to hear a word He said. Yeshua’s detractors already revealed ‘they’ were not Israelite-Jews never having been in bondage. Speaking of ‘marriage’ rescinding Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 23:3, 6, Ezra 9:1, 2, 7; this selects out Sarah, and narrows ‘their’ elusive maternal ancestry to either Hagar, Keturah, or concubines (Genesis 25:6 KJV).

John 8:39 KJV “They (detractors) answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.”​

Yeshua then distinguished between ‘their’ being “Abraham’s seed”, but NOT “Abrahams’ children.” This 1611 KJV seed v. children distinction is not discerned in many NT translations, btw. It is of particular importance here to recall Moses declared Abraham’s progeny via Keturah were “the children of Keturah” (Genesis 25:4 KJV), and NOT the children (sons) of Abraham. Furthermore, Moses’ said Keturah’s ‘son’ Shuah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4), Judah’s father-in-law, was a “Canaanite” (Genesis 38:1, 2), casting a shadow on the vague ancestry of Keturah. Continuing, Ezra said Judah’s wife, daughter of the Canaanite Shuah, was a “Canaanitess” (1Chronicles 2:3 KJV) affirming Moses’ shadow on Keturah’s origin. Thereby, Yeshua CORROBORATED Moses’ distinction (Genesis 25:4), and Ezra’s (1Chronicles 2:3 KJV), that His detractors were “Abrahams’ seed” (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV), but ‘they’ were NOT “Abraham’s children” (John 8:39 KJV). This should be sufficient enough scripture to corroborate “Abraham’s seed,” who conspired Yeshua’s crucifixion, were descendants of Abraham via his wife, Keturah. Let’s continue…

John 8:41 KJV “Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him (Yeshua), We be not born of fornication.”​

Yeshua’s direct paternity was not all that was brought into the argument here. David was in the ancestry of Yeshua (Matthew 1:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). And, asking only a mustard seed of faith, I’ve already established Ruth was an Israelite, and Boaz was an Ephrathite-Israelite (descendant of Judah, and also of Ephraim, son of Joseph), reuniting the patriarchs via Obed, ancestor to David and Yeshua. Therefore, Yeshua’s ancestor David has been ancestrally vindicated from the accusation he was a mamzer (‘illegitimate’). Although perpetuated in Christianity, such slander did not originate in Christianity, btw. On the implied accusation Yeshua was born of ‘fornication’ (John 8:41 KJV):

a. Abraham was married to his half-sister Sarah, contrary to Leviticus 18:9, 20:17.

b. Isaac was married to his second cousin Rebekah (Genesis 24:15 KJV).

c. Jacob was married to his first cousin/sisters (Genesis 29:13 KJV) Leah (mother of Judah, Genesis 29:35 KJV) and Rachel, contrary to Leviticus 18:18 KJV.

d. David and Jesus were descendants of Pharez via Judah’s widowed daughter-in-law Tamar contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 21:7, 9, 13, 14…
​

With utmost respect, Israelite ancestry appears riddled with ‘fornication,’ although there is much more in David’s and Yeshua’s ancestry than meets the eye, Chair. Highlighting Ezra’s remnant further still:

a. Abraham’s half-sister wife Sarah was barren and postmenopausal (Genesis 18:11 KJV), and she conceived Isaac via divine intervention (Genesis 14:4, 18:10, 14…)

b. Isaac’s second cousin wife Rebekah was barren, and she conceived Jacob via divine intervention (Genesis 25:21 KJV).

c. Jacob’s first cousin wife Leah was barren, and she conceived Judah via divine intervention (Genesis 29:31 KJV).

d. God the Author of Mosaic Law personally slew Judah’s older Canaanite son Er (Genesis 38:7); and God slew Judah’s middle Canaanite son Onan (Genesis 38:8, 9, 10) as Judah exercised inheritance rights found later in Deuteronomy 25:5, 6. However, Judah’s third and surviving Canaanite son Shelah survived to procreate (Genesis 38:26 KJV): Father of the Shelanites (Numbers 26:20 KJV), via Judah and his “Canaanite” wife (Genesis 38:1, 2), the “Canaanitess” daughter of Shuah (1Chronicles 2:3), who was the ‘son’ of Keturah (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4).

Judah’s father-in-law Shuah was “Abraham’s seed” (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV), but NOT one of “Abraham’s children” (John 8:39 KJV). Therefore, Judah’s Canaanite son Shelah was “Abraham’s seed”, but not one of “Abraham’s children.” Furthermore, the Canaanite Shelanites were “Abraham’s seed”, but they were the “children of Keturah” (Genesis 25:4), and not “Abraham’s children” (John 8:39 KJV). God intervened killing Judah’s two elder Canaanite sons, while Shelah was too young to procreate at that time. Therefore, Tamar was ‘inspired’ by Almighty God’s hand to play the harlot: Enter her eldest twin son Pharez (Genesis 38:29 KJV), found in the lineage of David and Jesus (Ruth 4:12, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, Matthew 1:1, 2, 3, 4, Matthew 1:5 KJV, Matthew 1:6).
​

Also, I proffer Judah’s Canaanite son Shelah hooked-up with his Midianite virgin cousins from Numbers 31:1, 2, 3, 9, 14, 17, 18, 35. Shelah’s grandfather Shuah was Midian’s brother, sons of Keturah, Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4. Shelah saw the infamous writing on the wall seeing his two older Canaanite brothers Er and Onan slain by Almighty God. Therefore, Shelah was ‘inspired’ by Almighty God to avoid an Israelite spouse, while his Midianite virgin cousins among the Israelites were abundant (Numbers 31:9, 18, 35). In fact, that Midianite inclusion was also contrary the words of Almighty God in Numbers 31:2 KJV, which is also quite prophetic; another time, perhaps.

Furthermore, there is no provision in Mosaic Law for a ‘surrogate mother’ as was Hagar. The instigators held to strict Mosaic Law (John 8:41 KJV). Moses referred to Ishmael as Abraham’s son (Genesis 17:23 KJV, etc.). Abraham gave no inheritance to his son Ishmael, but Ishmael was blessed directly by Almighty God (Genesis 17:20 KJV). Isaac received all that Abraham had (Genesis 25:5 KJV). Abraham’s “sons” via his concubines received gifts and were sent eastward (Genesis 25:6 KJV). Isaac and Ishmael buried Abraham (Genesis 25:9). Guess who’s missing here, Chair? Keturah’s ‘sons’ received neither inheritance, nor gifts (as did Abraham’s sons via concubines), nor did they attend Abraham’s funeral. Almighty God directly blessed Ishmael, but there is no similar record for Keturah’s ‘sons.’ I proffer Abraham was no more than a sperm donor for mother Keturah, the great harlot, no love lost.

Those who instigated the crucifixion were NOT Israelite Jews. ‘They’ were descendants of Abraham and his wife Keturah. John the Baptist knew this in Luke 3:2, 8, 9. Apostle Paul knew this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8, 9... Now, the final affirming point dictates which of Keturah’s sons’ descendants had a vested interest discounting David’s ancestry AND Yeshua’s. Judah was the prophesied progenitor of Messiah, and Judah’s third and surviving Canaanite son Shelah was the father of the circumcised Shelanites, so named only once in the OT (Numbers 26:20 KJV) hiding behind the ancestrally ambiguous title, “Jew.” The Shelanite “Jews” instigated the crucifixion Chair, and they slandered the maternal ancestry of your King David.

Yeshua clearly understood who these impostor 'Jews' were, Chair (Revelation 2:9, 3:9), as did John the Baptist, even Apostle Paul. But, Jesus could not come right out and say “Shelanite,” without condemning Shelah (John 8:15, 26). The anonymous circumcised Shelanites gave the title “Jew” a bad reputation, Chair. The Shelanites then, and today (knowingly, and not) hide behind the ancestrally ambiguous title “Jew,” persuading Israelites to forfeit their ‘God’s chosen’ name’s sake, for the ancestrally ambiguous title, “Jew.” The Shelanite ‘Jews’ walk anonymously among the Israelite Jews today, and I suspect they are predominately the Sephardic ‘Jews’.

David was not an ancestrally ambiguous Jew, Chair… David was an ancestrally intact Israelite, as was Jesus. Furthermore, both David and Yeshua were Pharzites, NOT Shelanites. When one wishes to refer to David and Jesus as "Jews", then the title "Pharzite Jews" is ancestrally accurate. The Shelanite ‘Jews’ slandered your King David’s Israelite heritage through Ruth's alleged Moabite ancestry, perpetuated in Judaism and Christianity. And the Shelanite 'Jews' instigated the crucifixion of God’s Messenger of Truth, unrealized among Christianity to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you for your enduring patience, Chair… check my homework, much of it is from the NT. I bid you peace, friend…

kayaker

 

[Nazaroo]

Even so, I am not the one who wrote the scriptures. What do you think of my interpretation?

Short answer: It sucks.

The word "Jew" does not appear in the primary source text you chose
to build your idea.

Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse;(Jew) the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name. (Christian)

Why would God be mysterious about the intent here in this passage?

The Holy Scriptures have no problem spelling out "Jew" and/or "Israel"
many many times.

Word "Jew" is found in 17 verse(s), 10 chapter(s) and 8 book(s).

Esther (8x) - used to identify the Babylonian captives from Southern Kingdom of Judaea. (no curse, but a rescue).


Jeremiah 34:9 That every man should let his manservant, and every man his maidservant, being an Hebrew or an Hebrewess, go free; that none should serve himself of them, to wit, of a Jew his brother.
(i.e., that Jews should be free and equals of their bretheren, not remain slaves.)

Zechariah 8:23
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
(suggesting that Jews would someday be recognized internationally as wise and guides of Godly wisdom).
(both contemporaries of Isaiah)

On the other hand, the NT usage of "Jew" is also very telling:

John 4:9, - identifies Jesus as a "Jew", not a new name (e.g., "Christian")
John 18:35 - identifies Jesus' nation as "Jews".

You would argue that the name got changed sometime in the period of Acts,
post - resurrection, and outside Judaea/Jeruslaem:

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

But PAUL's usage of "Jew" projects an image and status
that is quite different than the one you read into Isaiah:

Romans 10:12 - 'For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek...'
1st Corinthians 9:20 - 'And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews;' (no talk of them being 'cursed' here).



Galatians 2:14 ' If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?'

(Nothing to indicate anything other than a continuing identify for each group,
with differences, but no curses.)
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

(a description of a new era in which Jews and Gentiles will be EQUAL,
not one in which "Jews" are cursed.)

 

[Word based mystic]

Each man individually has the opportunity and responsibility for their own individual response to Gods Grace and salvation. God wills and desires that all men would be saved. not just the gentiles.
romans 1:16 (because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.)