Jesus vs the Pharisees

[Derf]

Jesus vs the Pharisees on adultery.

Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Is this our attitude towards adulterers? We know God established the death penalty for adultery so why was Jesus so forgiving towards this woman? One, I believe the Pharisees were responsible for her being caught in adultery as the story of Mary Magdalene demonstrates that the Pharisees had no moral compunction against seducing women. Two, I believe God is merciful by His very nature.

Jer_31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

We find 33 instances in Psalms of God being described using the word lovingkindness.

So are we as merciful as God?

Even more, sometimes...to our hurt.

 

[Gary K]

Even more, sometimes...to our hurt.

Do I understand you correctly? You think we are more loving than God? Where has humanity ever demonstrated the same kind of love for ourselves that God has demonstrated for us? Do we sacrifice ourselves for others? Would you sacrifice one of your kids to save big pharma's people?

 

[Gary K]

Jesus loved the spies.

Yes He did. He loved them enough to die for them even though He knew they would reject His sacrifice.

 

[Derf]

Do I understand you correctly? You think we are more loving than God? Where has humanity ever demonstrated the same kind of love for ourselves that God has demonstrated for us? Do we sacrifice ourselves for others? Would you sacrifice one of your kids to save big pharma's people?

When we forgive murderers who haven't repented, we're "more merciful than God."

 

[Gary K]

When we forgive murderers who haven't repented, we're "more merciful than God."

No. We just aren't following in God's footsteps.

 

[Hoping]

Did you read the rest of the thread?

Yes, I did.

 

[Hoping]

When we forgive murderers who haven't repented, we're "more merciful than God."

"We" can only forgive those who have sinned against us.
"We" can even forgive the unrepentant, as sometimes time and distance makes it impossible to know their present state of mind.
For sins committed against others, that is between the sinner and the sinned against.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, I did.

Then you should understand that Jesus always taught that we should keep God's law. He did not teach us that is was alright to break His commandments.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In the opening post on this thread I posted a very small excerpt from the Talmud. The Pharisees had hundreds of laws just concerning washing of hands, clothes, and eating utensils. It's one of the reasons Jesus said the above quote because it was impossible to keep every law they had created to enforce obedience.

 

[Right Divider]

Then you should understand that Jesus always taught that we should keep God's law. He did not teach us that is was alright to break His commandments.

Do you think that you keep all of God's commandments. Do you keep the feasts? Do you travel to Israel three times a year to do so? I didn't think so.

 

[Gary K]

Do you think that you keep all of God's commandments. Do you keep the feasts? Do you travel to Israel three times a year to do so? I didn't think so.

No, I don't keep the feasts. The passover pointed back to the deliverance from Egypt and Jesus replaced it with the foot washing ceremony. The other feasts were prophetic because they pointed forward to Jesus. It's just like the reason we no longer sacrifice lambs for the forgiveness of sin. These all pointed forward to Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

No, I don't keep the feasts.

Why not? I thought that you said that we should keep all of the commandments.

The passover pointed back to the deliverance from Egypt and Jesus replaced it with the foot washing ceremony.

Where did you get that strange idea? Is that SDA doctrine?

The other feasts were prophetic because they pointed forward to Jesus.

Some still do...

It's just like the reason we no longer sacrifice lambs for the forgiveness of sin.

Do you think that there was a time when sins were forgiven by killing animals?

These all pointed forward to Jesus.

Some still do...

 

[Arthur Brain]

More on Jesus vs the Pharisees on healing on the Sabbath.

Mat 12:9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue. Mat 12:10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. Mat 12:11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Mat 12:12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Mat 12:13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. Mat 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.

So Jesus heals a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath after the Pharisees ask Him if it is legal to heal on the Sabbath. It's very plain the Pharisees did this just to accuse Jesus of doing something evil. Jesus asks them if a man is not more valuable than sheep as the Pharisees would work hard to save money on Sabbath by saving one of their own sheep. Their response? They conspired to destroy Jesus.

So what kind of people were they? It's pretty obvious these were evil men who didn't give a rip about others.

The pompous legalists of the time.

 

[Arthur Brain]

For any violation of the law that required the death penalty, there was a requirement that there be two or three witnesses:
Deut 17:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)
(17:6) At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. (17:7) The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

In this case, there were NO witnesses:
John 8:10-11 (AKJV/PCE)
(8:10) When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? (8:11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus was a Jew under the law and He followed the law.
Gal 4:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

That first verse is one that JR used to somehow justify the execution of children as young as five, "putting the evil away from among you" especially emphasized for some bizarre reason. Maybe you can explain that?

 

[Right Divider]

That first verse is one that JR used to somehow justify the execution of children as young as five, "putting the evil away from among you" especially emphasized for some bizarre reason. Maybe you can explain that?

Don't ask me to speak for JR. He's quite capable of speaking for himself.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Don't ask me to speak for JR. He's quite capable of speaking for himself.

Hey, just thought you could maybe give some insight as to how the verse would justify holding five year old kids accountable as adults for stuff is all. It's cool!

 

[Gary K]

Why not? I thought that you said that we should keep all of the commandments.

Where did you get that strange idea? Is that SDA doctrine?

Some still do...

Do you think that there was a time when sins were forgiven by killing animals?

Some still do...

I said Jesus said that.

Nope. It's Biblical doctrine.

Exo_12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. ]/box]

Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
[/box]

It's what Idolater calls the Eucharist.

No. The sacrificial lamb was symbolic of Jesus.

Just what is there that still looks forward to Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

I said Jesus said that.

Nope. It's Biblical doctrine.

Exo_12:21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. ]/box]

Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
[/box]

That does NOT say anything about replacing Passover with foot washing.
Again, is this SDA doctrine?

It's what Idolater calls the Eucharist.

Idolator is an RC. So he's very confused about Bible doctrine.

No. The sacrificial lamb was symbolic of Jesus.

Yes, the sacrifices did NOT forgive sins.

Just what is there that still looks forward to Jesus.

The remaining unfulfilled feasts.

1. Passover (verse 5)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread (6-8)
3. Feast of First Fruits (9-14)
4. Feast of Weeks (15-22)
5. Feast of Trumpets (23-25)
6. Day of Atonement (26-32)
7. Feast of Booths (33-43)

First four fulfilled. Last three remaining.

 

[Gary K]

That does NOT say anything about replacing Passover with foot washing.
Again, is this SDA doctrine?

Idolator is an RC. So he's very confused about Bible doctrine.

Yes, the sacrifices did NOT forgive sins.

The remaining unfulfilled feasts.

1. Passover (verse 5)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread (6-8)
3. Feast of First Fruits (9-14)
4. Feast of Weeks (15-22)
5. Feast of Trumpets (23-25)
6. Day of Atonement (26-32)
7. Feast of Booths (33-43)

First four fulfilled. Last three remaining.

Nope. Not a specific SDA doctrine. As far as I know all Protestant denominations celebrate this. This is one of the things that the Protestant reformers broke away from the Catholic church over.

Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Those last three are not specifically looking forward to Jesus. The day of atonement is looking forward to the judgement. Jesus already came so they cannot be looking forward to Him. The feast of Tabernacles was also known as the feast of Ingathering as it was held in the fall of the year after the harvest so it was a commemorative feast.

The feast of booths was a commemorative feast looking back to the time spent in the wilderness and thus commemorating the deliverance from Egypt

 

[Right Divider]

Nope. Not a specific SDA doctrine.

Okay.

As far as I know all Protestant denominations celebrate this.

No denomination that I have ever heard of teaches that foot washing replaced Passover.

This is one of the things that the Protestant reformers broke away from the Catholic church over.

Luk 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The RCC basically claims to be the continuation of Israel. They are liars and thieves.

Those last three are not specifically looking forward to Jesus.

Yes, they are.

The day of atonement is looking forward to the judgement.

The day of atonement is the fulfillment of Israel's forgiveness of sins.

Jesus already came so they cannot be looking forward to Him.

Perhaps you were unaware that Jesus is coming back again to complete the remaining fulfillment of these feasts.

The feast of Tabernacles was also known as the feast of Ingathering as it was held in the fall of the year after the harvest so it was a commemorative feast.

Indeed, it's fulfillment is yet future.

The feast of booths was a commemorative feast looking back to the time spent in the wilderness and thus commemorating the deliverance from Egypt

This feast will be fulfilled when Israel gets all of their land forever. It is yet future.

Note also that these feasts are all related to Israel and their relationship with their Messiah. The body of Christ is something different.

 

[Hoping]

Then you should understand that Jesus always taught that we should keep God's law. He did not teach us that is was alright to break His commandments.

His commandments...
They are: love God with all your heart, soul, and mind.
And love your neighbor as you want them to love you.

In the opening post on this thread I posted a very small excerpt from the Talmud. The Pharisees had hundreds of laws just concerning washing of hands, clothes, and eating utensils. It's one of the reasons Jesus said the above quote because it was impossible to keep every law they had created to enforce obedience.

OK.
Jesus saw, and illustrated, the end of Law keeping before He even died.