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Continuing our Study on Isaiah 9:6 -
We again review the Septuagint rendition of the passage -
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.
No name or title of 'God' in this rendition, but he is the Messenger(Angel) of Great Counsel because he is God's Anointed. There is NO indication of this messenger of the LORD being deity. None whatsoever. Unnecessary. We might note as well, that no NT writer ever even mentions this prolific verse (if so important) as a supporting verse to prove Jesus divinity. (hmmmm,....wonder why)- well, if they were using the Septuagint ...that might help explain?
The Jewish translations we've read so far,
For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
...speak of 'God' calling this special son The Prince of Peace,....God called his name this...the Prince of Peace. This is an acceptable translation. BUT even if we take the Christian translation, these special titles do NOT by any means indicate that the 'person' is 'God'. Many Jewish commentators as well believe the King being spoken of is Hezekiah, not some person who is to come many centuries later, since the child/son was already given (past tense).
Rashi writes:
For a child has been born to us: Although Ahaz is wicked, his son who was born to him many years ago [nine years prior to his assuming the throne] to be our king in his stead, shall be a righteous man, and the authority of the Holy One, blessed be He, and His yoke shall be on his shoulder, for he shall engage in the Torah and observe the commandments, and he shall bend his shoulder to bear the burden of the Holy One, blessed be He.
and… called his name: The Holy One, blessed be He, Who gives wondrous counsel, is a mighty God and an everlasting Father, called Hezekiah’s name, “the prince of peace,” since peace and truth will be in his days.
We would note some significant points from a Jewish perspective as they interpret their own scriptures, which are made clear by Rabbi Skobac in his video presentation below -
1) The passage is speaking of a child/son already born (past tense).
2) The passage according to the greater context points to this person as very probably being King Hezekiah. - the miraculous victory and era of peace gained by Hezekiah spanned thru a century, a very impressive reign as to bringing about an era of peace. Now as to the Messiah's reign being 'forever', well...this must include a lineage of messiah-kings along Davids line, as it represents God's reign of peace and righteousness thru God's government. Obviously Hezekiah's reign or that era of peace may have not lasted 'forever'. But even considering this being a 'double prophecy', as including the coming of another messiah (Jesus) in the future....there was no reign of peace in Jerusalem or the world with Jesus ministry, so he didnt fulfill or satisfy the major requirements laid down from Jewish scripture and tradition, hence their rejection of him as THEIR Messiah. See Jewish Messiah Wanted. - the Jewish Messiah in any case is supposed to bring about world peace and conversion of all to the law of God. What is the state of the world today? Can we blame the Jews for rejected Jesus as their Jewish Messiah? A sincere and honest question.
3) Even if this passage is held in the way Christian translators translate it,...these titles or names of 'God' would not necessarily mean, claim or identify that the child-son is 'God' himself. This would not enter in the minds of any orthodox Jew ever, since God is not a man. God is so ineffable as to be an omnipresent, both immanent and wholly transcending space, time, matter. He is so holy as to be careful of even the mention of his name, which was replaced in many places by a mere title of 'Lord' (Adonai) or 'Ha Shem'. The Messiah-Son in any case is 'elohim', even as the great judges, kings and rulers of old were they being men acting under the sanction of God's authority in the earth-realm (Psalm 82).... and the Son of YHWH-Elohim, who alone is the Most High. No problem here whatsoever from a Jewish Unitarian perspective.
Now for trinitarians or Oneness folks who choose the 'christianized' translation of the above passage, and by it attribute God-hood to the person being described or some kind(degree) of 'divinity',...that is your perogative. But do know a perfectly Unitarian translation is most feasible and appropriate here as well, true to Judaism.
As noted before, I share a Unitarian view in our discussions for the sake of contrasting and creative dialogue. I'm not necessary limited to such a view, since my theology is quite multi-dimensional anyways, being a student of universal religion and philosophy (truly 'eclectic'). 'God' is not limited to any one religious cult or tradition. All opinions, perspectives and points of view are being considered Christologically speaking. Each are free to research the data available and make up their own minds on any given subject. Each are responsible for their own view, and what they choose. Yes,....this implies 'free will'
Good post Freelight, I watched the whole video, and for now I will simply say what I did say earlier: remember that Hezekiah is healed, and then he was promised by the Father through the Prophet Isaiah that he would go up into the House of YHWH the THIRD DAY, (2 Kings 20:1-11, Matthew 27:52-53). He is a type in the typology of Messiah being formed in us, (a child was/is born, a son is given, a zakar-manchild and a nepheg-sprout within the heart). These things happen over and over again, not just once, (as neither modern Jews nor Christians seem to be able to grasp), and this typology reveals how the Father works among His people by way of His Word, (as even the parable of the sower and like parables of the seed of the Word reveal).
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