Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[Notaclue]

This was all about the gathering of the 144,000 co-rulers with Christ. Back then it was all about the Kingdom---God's government that would rule the planet in the future. The gathering of those chosen ones was foremost in the N.T. writers' minds, because they were the first to make up the ruling class.

Much later the number had been filled---around 1935. They weren't sealed yet, but were chosen. Some fell away, so they had to be replaced. That is why the number of anointed ones keeps fluctuating. But since 1935 most JWs want to stay on the earth. 8 million of us. We don't want to go to heaven.

You have decided that you are a chosen one and are going to heaven to rule. No one except Jehovah can contradict you. But there are many people who do not feel that they are going to heaven. IJohn 3:1 does not apply to us.

Do you realize that you are adding to Scripture?

Jn3:1. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Why do you say this does not apply to us?

Peace.

 

[jamie]

Well, Jamie, if you want potato salad and red beans (which I love too), you'll be happy in Paradise on Earth.

When Jesus presents himself to the world we will be changed to an incorruptible non-material body and Jesus will present us to the Father. We will each receive a new name, enjoy a wedding banquet and given our assignment.

I would like to come back and participate in the rebuilding of Texas.

 

[KingdomRose]

And... a stick can't turn into a snake...and, a universe can't be spoken into existence,...and a blind man doesn't gain his sight by rubbing mud on his eyes.However we believe because God says.

There are reasons that Jehovah turned a stick into a snake---to show Pharaoh that He had more power than Egypt's gods (though somehow the magicians did the same thing). The universe was spoken into existence because that was the way Jehovah created. Good reason. Jesus rubbed mud in the blind man's eyes for a reason. What would be the REASON for a physical body going through a locked door? What was Jesus trying to show his disciples? There is no reason that I can see. So I don't think there was a physical body involved there. If anything, Jesus wanted them to see that he had a SPIRIT BODY. To all of a sudden appear in their midst? He had a sense of humor, you know. BTW, God didn't say that Jesus' physical body went through a locked door.

 

[KingdomRose]

Although He is now in heaven in a spiritual body He remains "Man":

"But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:55-57).​

Here Paul speaks of the Lord Jesus as being in "bodily form:

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col.2:9).​

Here the Greek word translated "dwells" is in the present tense. So Paul is saying that while the Lord Jesus is in heaven He is in bodily form. The Apostle John saw a vision of the "Son of Man" in heaven:

"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me" (Rev.1:13-17).​

You forget that a SPIRIT BODY IS A BODY. There are two kinds of BODIES.....spirit and physical. As Paul explained in I Corinthians 15. When Jesus gave up his physical body he was no longer a MAN. "Son of Man" does not mean that Jesus is still a man. He was at one time, but no longer. He is much more than a man.

 

[KingdomRose]

Of course it is the Lord Jesus who is credited with the creation of the universe of space and time:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col.1:16-17).​

From this we can understand that all created things were created by the Lord Jesus. That eliminates the possiblity that the Lord Jesus is a created being. After all, it is impossible to even imagine that He created Himself.

Add that fact to the fact that He was "before all things" then the only possible conclusion is that He is God!

I don't agree.

Jesus did indeed create everything, but it was with his Father's permission and with his Father's power. The SOURCE of the power to create was the Father, Jehovah.

I find it silly to say that the fact that Jesus created everything proves that he is not a created being. He was the very first thing that was created, by Jehovah Himself. THEN everything was created by Jesus. Everything ELSE. He is not God, and he never claimed to be God. All that evidence has been provided to you already.

 

[KingdomRose]

I do. Lot's of people do.



Now, that's just the sort of response that I would expect from someone who sees no point in Christ's resurrection other that a demonstration of power.

.

The Lord Jesus was raised to life physically and permanently.

You are proving my point regarding JW's shabby partial belief in Christ's resurrection.



He was raised physically, ascended physically and will return physically.
Christianity is not Platonism.



Proving my point again. You don't believe in the fullness or the uniqueness of Christ's physical resurrection.
There has been no one in history other than the Lord Jesus who has been resurrected in the sense that He has.

The Bible teaches the redemption and elevation of mankind physically and spiritually through Christ Jesus, the victor over death.

You are avoiding what the Bible teaches. How much more clearly could the Bible say that Jesus was raised back to life as a SPIRIT PERSON than what it says here?....

"The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving SPIRIT." (I Corinthians 15:45, NASB)

He had to be a spirit person again because no flesh can be in heaven. (I Cor.15:50)


"For Christ also died for sins once for all...having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the SPIRIT." (I Peter 3:18, NASB) Hello.

I believe your belief in a physical resurrection is quite "shabby." How could he go and speak to the demons in the spirit realm if he still had a physical body? The scripture says "made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in 'prison.'" (verse 19) Did you notice the phrase "in which he also went"? "In which" what? Referring to the SPIRIT BODY that he went into the spirit realm with.

Did you notice in the scripture in Acts that Jesus was taken up in a cloud OUT OF THEIR SIGHT? They couldn't see him any more. That is the way he exists now---in heaven with a spirit body---and that is how he will come back. UNSEEN. People will "see" him with their eyes of understanding.

You do not get the sense that the Bible is telling you that Jesus was resurrected with a spirit body, even though it says that flesh cannot inherit heaven. How could a body of flesh withstand the heat of, for example, the sun? Yet Jehovah and Jesus made the sun, and Jesus is back again to the body he had when he made the sun! Physical flesh would burn in a second.

Jesus is indeed the victor over death. He accomplished that by surrendering his physical body for our lives.

 

[KingdomRose]

Fundamentally the Trinity at its core as already noted was Greek platonism/philosophy -rooted in Babylonian gnosticism- that 2nd and 3rd Century Christian apologists attempted to reconcile into Christianity. First and foremost many of these so called Christians were Philosophers of the stoic of platonic variety who were influenced heavily by Greek philosophy. They were the modern day academics and learned men of their day. The type of men that Paul had to argue against in the Areopagus.

The primary reason for the Trinitys birth was simply because these men with their twisted humanistic/philosophical reasoning lamely attempted to 'understand' Jesus 'divinity'. This led them down all manners of merry paths as they all vainly tried to explain how Jesus was divine but also equally human while using the basis of Greek philosophy for their explanations none of which made a modicum of any sense. All they had to do was read the Bible and the letters from the Apostles which would have taught them all they needed to know. But alas Greek Philsophy was widespread and infected every school of thought in 1AD.

What i find more interesting is none of these scholars/academics doubted the existence of Jesus, which to me is of far more importance. They ALL knew he positively existed and that includes some of Jesus most sternest critics. The explosion of Christianity which spread across the then known world like wild fire that even the might of Rome couldn't extinguish was ample testament to the existence of this extraordinary man whom the Roman Empire murdered. And yet the only reason why the Trinity myth was birthed into Christianity was because these so called learned men could find no rationale way of attempting to explain Jesus 'divinity'...... Greek philosophy has been remarkably resilient for all the wrong reasons, while Christendom has also been extremly liberal and lenient in its adoption of flawed secular wisdom for all the wrong reasons.

Excellent post, SoC!!

 

[KingdomRose]

2 Corinthians 5:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So what are you saying? That ICorinthians 15:42-53 doesn't count?

And have you ever thought about the fact that 2Corinthians 5:8 doesn't say how long a period is between the death of the body, or, the change of the body, and being with the Lord? It doesn't say immediately.

 

[KingdomRose]

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

None of that has any reference to the resurrections of those who will live on the earth forever. And none of it shows that Jesus' flesh was "immortalized." In fact, there is no such thing as "immortal flesh."

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you realize that you are adding to Scripture?


Peace.

No, I am not adding to Scripture. Could you detail for me just how you think I am?

 

[KingdomRose]

When Jesus presents himself to the world we will be changed to an incorruptible non-material body and Jesus will present us to the Father. We will each receive a new name, enjoy a wedding banquet and given our assignment.

I would like to come back and participate in the rebuilding of Texas.

Oh stop it. That is not what is gonna happen. God made us physical people to live on this physical earth forever. If Adam had not rebelled he would still be here---in a physical body. No one was EVER supposed to die, but Jehovah wanted humans to continue to live in physical bodies forever. That is why Jesus died for us, and GAVE UP HIS OWN PHYSICAL BODY so that we could live in ours forever.

I'm sure you could rebuild Texas if that's what you would really desire to do.

 

[musterion]

Am I stepping out of line for calling the idea that Jesus is Jehovah ABSURD?

Yes, you are.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

I don't agree.

Jesus did indeed create everything, but it was with his Father's permission and with his Father's power. The SOURCE of the power to create was the Father, Jehovah.

I find it silly to say that the fact that Jesus created everything proves that he is not a created being. He was the very first thing that was created, by Jehovah Himself. THEN everything was created by Jesus. Everything ELSE. He is not God, and he never claimed to be God. All that evidence has been provided to you already.

Collossians 1:14 "..by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him"

KR i've often pondered on the verse above, the last sentence. "All other things have been created through him and for him". What do you make of the last portion of that sentence? Do you think Jehovah created the whole of creation entirely for Jesus? Jesus said in the scriptures he was

"especially fond of the sons of men."

- Proverbs 8:31. Which stands to reason as Jesus was instrumental in all the creation epochs. If not what does the last sentence "..for him" mean?

The relationship between Jesus and Jehovah is obviously very intimate stretching back into an almost limitless past. Isaiah 55:11 says

"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results,
But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

Ive often wondered if there's a duality in the meaning of this verse as Jesus is also described as 'The Word'. Considering Jesus is the lynchpin within the establishment of the Kingdom and the outworking of Gods will is Isaiahs words a possible metaphysical tribute to Jehovahs complete confidence in his son? He did after all give Jesus immortality as attested to by Paul so his confidence in Jesus is absolute. May be we should start another thread to discuss...

 

[jamie]

No one was EVER supposed to die...

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

It had already been demonstrated that character cannot be created, it must be grown.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I find it silly to say that the fact that Jesus created everything proves that he is not a created being. He was the very first thing that was created, by Jehovah Himself. THEN everything was created by Jesus. Everything ELSE. He is not God, and he never claimed to be God. All that evidence has been provided to you already.

Of course the Lord Jesus created all things which were created. That is why we read that He was "before all things":

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col.1:16-17).​

If the Lord Jesus is a created being then it could not be said that He is "before all things" because it is obvious that those words can only be said of God.

Besides that, the Scriptures reveal that the Almighty God is the "Alpha and Omega":

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev.1:8).​

Since only God can be described as the "Alpha and Omega" we can know that the Lord Jesus is God because He is described in that same way:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man" (Rev.1:10-13).​

 

[SonOfCaleb]

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

It had already been demonstrated that character cannot be created, it must be grown.

Whats that go to do with the price of fish?

 

[jamie]

Whats that go to do with the price of fish?

Someone said, "No one was EVER supposed to die..."

And yet some had already sinned.

The Spirit was not willing to write them off.

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Someone said, "No one was EVER supposed to die..."

And yet some had already sinned.

The Spirit was not willing to write them off.

I think you misunderstand KR's point....She's talking about the original destiny of Mankind EG Adam prior to him sinning.

 

[freelight]

God is the Creator, no matter what vehicle God works THRU.........

God is the Creator, no matter what vehicle God works THRU.........

I don't agree.

Jesus did indeed create everything, but it was with his Father's permission and with his Father's power. The SOURCE of the power to create was the Father, Jehovah.

I find it silly to say that the fact that Jesus created everything proves that he is not a created being. He was the very first thing that was created, by Jehovah Himself. THEN everything was created by Jesus. Everything ELSE. He is not God, and he never claimed to be God. All that evidence has been provided to you already.

Frankly,

As I've noted before,....whats so terrible about a more or less Arian view of Jesus? :idunno:


Its one of those mysteries

 

[KingdomRose]

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

It had already been demonstrated that character cannot be created, it must be grown.

Jamie, I have explained this to you a few times before. "The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" means that Jehovah planned to have Jesus die for mankind AFTER ADAM & EVE REBELLED. Not before. "The world" refers to mankind alienated from God. Not the planet. It is the same world that John talks about in his letter: "Do not be loving the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (IJohn 2:15, NASB)

That is the "world" that you quoted about. It did not exist until Adam & Eve disobeyed. Then "the world" was founded. Mankind alienated from God.

Mankind was not supposed to die. Adam brought death into the world, to Jehovah's consternation.