Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[SonOfCaleb]

Indeed, 'he who is like God'. I draw from some different schools on this point, outside of the limited info. in the Bible, and am quite familiar with the JW view. The SDA have a similar view, with different nuances. The Urantia Book also teaches that Jesus is from a group of Creator-Sons called 'Michaels', or from the 'Order of Michael'. - these are divine Sons who go forth to create their own universes, and are wholly devoted to their Father-God, who appear as God to their respective creations, so in this sense a 'Creator-Son' is as 'god' and 'lord' to those created by them. Of Course the Universal Father Alone is the First Source and Center of all creation, but has sent forth Creator-Sons to create the universes of space and time. This may be a side study, but I elaborate more on it here in the UB thread and elsewhere. This is why another title for Jesus is 'Christ-Michael' in UB nomenclature. In any case the 'Christ/Michael' connection is prevelant in both ancient cosmic history and modern, so there must be something to it all.

Be that as it may in Urantia Philsophy that's not what the Bible says. Only one individual goes by the name of Michael in the Bible which is clearly Jesus as alluded to in Jude 9 who calls him the Archangel. Archangel means "chief angel" and is only mentioned in the scriptures singularly and never plurally. Therefore there is only one Archangel. The Book of Revelations and Daniel both of which deal with "end time" prophecy mention Michael specifically. In fact the opening verse of Revelation 1:1 says a "A revelation by Jesus Christ [Using Michaels 'earthly' name]...to his slave John". Michael is mentioned specifically as the person whom which Jehovah God will establish his Kingdom by.
Only two angels are mentioned in the scriptures. Michael and Gabriel both of whom are VERY high rankings Angels, Michael obviously being the highest ranking as the principal or chief Angel. Thus all available evidence in the scriptures point to Jesus being the Angel Michael. His name of course being very apt in describing his closeness to God as the "Firstborn of all creation".

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Yet early fathers and Church theologians were well versed in Platonism, and used greek philosophical terms and metaphysics in helping to describe the Trinity. Its an essential part of the metaphysics involved, as the greek terms demonstrate. It was a battle over 'essence' and 'substance'.....how all divine person shared it, or how Jesus was 'like' or 'different' from the Father,....a curious con-fusion that later got clarified in creedal statements, as dogmas were formalized.

Fundamentally the Trinity at its core as already noted was Greek platonism/philosophy -rooted in Babylonian gnosticism- that 2nd and 3rd Century Christian apologists attempted to reconcile into Christianity. First and foremost many of these so called Christians were Philosophers of the stoic of platonic variety who were influenced heavily by Greek philosophy. They were the modern day academics and learned men of their day. The type of men that Paul had to argue against in the Areopagus.

The primary reason for the Trinitys birth was simply because these men with their twisted humanistic/philosophical reasoning lamely attempted to 'understand' Jesus 'divinity'. This led them down all manners of merry paths as they all vainly tried to explain how Jesus was divine but also equally human while using the basis of Greek philosophy for their explanations none of which made a modicum of any sense. All they had to do was read the Bible and the letters from the Apostles which would have taught them all they needed to know. But alas Greek Philsophy was widespread and infected every school of thought in 1AD.

What i find more interesting is none of these scholars/academics doubted the existence of Jesus, which to me is of far more importance. They ALL knew he positively existed and that includes some of Jesus most sternest critics. The explosion of Christianity which spread across the then known world like wild fire that even the might of Rome couldn't extinguish was ample testament to the existence of this extraordinary man whom the Roman Empire murdered. And yet the only reason why the Trinity myth was birthed into Christianity was because these so called learned men could find no rationale way of attempting to explain Jesus 'divinity'...... Greek philosophy has been remarkably resilient for all the wrong reasons, while Christendom has also been extremly liberal and lenient in its adoption of flawed secular wisdom for all the wrong reasons.

 

[KingdomRose]

The reason you don't trust in the Scripture verses Steko posted is because you're not a member of The Body of Christ nor do you have the sealing and indwelling of The Holy Spirit. You're a member of The Jehovah Witness Cult. If you continue to reject The Grace Gospel, you will be judged by God for your works and be cast into The Lake of Fire.

Yes, if I started to reject the Gospel, I would not fare well. So far I'm good. But you are correct---I am not one of the chosen co-rulers with Christ that will reign with him during his Millennium Rule. I have the hope of living forever on Earth, as one of Jesus' subjects. I don't want to go to heaven.

 

[KingdomRose]

And... a stick can't turn into a snake...and, a universe can't be spoken into existence,...and a blind man doesn't gain his sight by rubbing mud on his eyes.However we believe because God says.

Then why don't you believe Peter and Paul? You don't think they were inspired by God?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in THE SPIRIT." (IPeter 3:18, NASB) See? Flesh, then spirit.

"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45, NASB)


You don't believe them?

 

[KingdomRose]

Obviously Charles Taze Russell wasn't familiar with Quantum Physics (10 dimensions).
Actually, Charles Taze Russell never even heard of the "Early Church Fathers" and their writings.
Well, that's the price you pay for "recycling" 2nd Century heresies in the mid-1800s.

The heresies came later, and became quite solidified in the 4th century. Charles Russell went back to the early "church fathers," who were actually Jesus and his apostles. The "fathers" that came after John and Polycarp weren't worth a hill of beans.

 

[KingdomRose]

Matthew 11

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Hello. Notice that the verse is telling us that John the Baptist is not one of the chosen ones to go to heaven. Jesus says that the LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven [the ruling class that will reign with Jesus] is greater than John. Clearly, he is not one of them. Are you awake yet?

 

[KingdomRose]

Jesus should be in you too if you belong to him

He prayed to the Father that ALL of his disciples would be unified with the Father and himself. So I can say that Jesus is "in" me; that is, he and I are unified in thought. (John 17:20-23)

 

[KingdomRose]

He did, and that spirit is in his people. Christ is spirit and there is no flesh in heaven.

You are correct! No flesh in heaven. But Christ is an actual person, an individual. He is not a spirit that is divided up amongst millions of his followers. The Father's Holy Spirit is what is in or with his people.

 

[KingdomRose]

What does 'anastasis' mean?

I don't know and I don't really care. I don't like to throw around big words that some people might not know. I want to be simple and clear. None of the churches I attended in my youth ever mentioned the word, and neither have JWs.

 

[KingdomRose]

1Jn.3:1 See ye what love the Father hath given to us, that children of God we may be called; because of this the world doth not know us, because it did not know Him;
2beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
3and every one who is having this hope on him, doth purify himself, even as he is pure.


Peace.

This was all about the gathering of the 144,000 co-rulers with Christ. Back then it was all about the Kingdom---God's government that would rule the planet in the future. The gathering of those chosen ones was foremost in the N.T. writers' minds, because they were the first to make up the ruling class.

Much later the number had been filled---around 1935. They weren't sealed yet, but were chosen. Some fell away, so they had to be replaced. That is why the number of anointed ones keeps fluctuating. But since 1935 most JWs want to stay on the earth. 8 million of us. We don't want to go to heaven.

You have decided that you are a chosen one and are going to heaven to rule. No one except Jehovah can contradict you. But there are many people who do not feel that they are going to heaven. IJohn 3:1 does not apply to us.

 

[KingdomRose]

Where is heaven? I would like to check it out before I go there. You know, look before you leap.

I wonder if anyone can see how silly that statement is (by L.A.). Anyway, Jamie, no one gets to check out heaven. You either know you're going there or you don't. I know I'm not going there. Paradise Earth is for me!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Of course it is the Lord Jesus who is credited with the creation of the universe of space and time:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (Col.1:16-17).​

From this we can understand that all created things were created by the Lord Jesus. That eliminates the possiblity that the Lord Jesus is a created being. After all, it is impossible to even imagine that He created Himself.

Add that fact to the fact that He was "before all things" then the only possible conclusion is that He is God!

So you say Jesus handed the creation over to Himself, and He has no Father.

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Then you believe Jesus becomes subject to Himself--

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

LA

 

[KingdomRose]

I understand that very differently to you, but there's no point in saying what I believe here.

But, God is spirit, and when we leave our bodies we are spirit too as was Jesus. Jesus said father into your hands I commend my spirit, not my flesh. His spirit went back to God and his flesh went back to the dust.

We who hope to live on the physical earth forever do not "leave our bodies." (Where does it say that?) At death we "sleep" until the Resurrection, and we know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10). When we are resurrected, we will "stand up again" in physical bodies, like Jesus demonstrated by raising the three people he brought back to life (including Lazarus).

People who have the heavenly hope---the ones ruling with Jesus---will have spirit bodies, but will not leave their bodies...they will CHANGE, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 42-53.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hello. Notice that the verse is telling us that John the Baptist is not one of the chosen ones to go to heaven. Jesus says that the LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven [the ruling class that will reign with Jesus] is greater than John. Clearly, he is not one of them. Are you awake yet?

It does not mean as you say.

It simply means that those who will be in the Kingdom of God when Jesus fills them with His Spirit from Pentecost on, will be greater than all men of God before them, because Christ is dwelling in them.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

LA

 

[Bright Raven]

We who hope to live on the physical earth forever do not "leave our bodies." (Where does it say that?) At death we "sleep" until the Resurrection, and we know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10). When we are resurrected, we will "stand up again" in physical bodies, like Jesus demonstrated by raising the three people he brought back to life (including Lazarus).

People who have the heavenly hope---the ones ruling with Jesus---will have spirit bodies, but will not leave their bodies...they will CHANGE, as Paul explained in I Corinthians 15: 42-53.

2 Corinthians 5:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[KingdomRose]

No.

His flesh was immortalized in His resurrection.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

LA

Where do you get that Jesus' flesh was immortalized? He GAVE UP his flesh so that we could live forever in OURS. If he took back his flesh, it would be like taking back his sacrifice.

He was raised a spirit, and now lives in unapproachable light that no man can see. (I Timothy 6:16) How could he still be in a flesh body? Flesh cannot bear living in the spirit realm.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I wonder if anyone can see how silly that statement is (by L.A.). Anyway, Jamie, no one gets to check out heaven. You either know you're going there or you don't. I know I'm not going there. Paradise Earth is for me!

The way that Jesus is in Heaven, the same time as He is on earth is by the Holy spirit of God, not bodily but His presence is the same as if He were.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

LA

 

[KingdomRose]

I'm game as long as they serve BBQ with potato salad and red beans. Will I need a jacket?

Red beans is Texas talk.

Well, Jamie, if you want potato salad and red beans (which I love too), you'll be happy in Paradise on Earth.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Where do you get that Jesus' flesh was immortalized? He GAVE UP his flesh so that we could live forever in OURS. If he took back his flesh, it would be like taking back his sacrifice.

He was raised a spirit, and now lives in unapproachable light that no man can see. (I Timothy 6:16) How could he still be in a flesh body? Flesh cannot bear living in the spirit realm.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

[KingdomRose]

I stand by my post.