Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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I figure that Jesus knows a lot more about what is proper and what is blasphemy than you do.


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

That is just another example of Jesus claiming to be God.
 

JudgeRightly

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I am still waiting to see any of this evidence you claim to have.
I looked through your spoiler and found nothing but suppositions and innuendos, no evidence.

​​​​​​Appeal to the stone.

Address the evidence that was presented.

Do you believe that God sent Jesus or not?


John 5:24
24 [JESUS]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/JESUS]


Address the evidence you were presented with before dismissing it and moving on.
 

Theo102

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I do not see how this is relevant except to concede my point. In fact, I'm not even sure what your point is, exactly.
I was attempting to add clarification to your idea that "there is some kind of plurality within the singular God", due to the ambiguity of the term "God".

The fact is that not only Genisis 1:1 but everywhere else "Elohim" is used throughout the entire bible, it is followed by the use of a singular form of verb. I don't know of a single exception.

And Elohim said, Let us make[נעשה] man in our image...
Genesis 1:26

"First person common plural, cohortive if contextual"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-26.htm
 

God's Truth

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Look again.
The chapter begins:

Revelation 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


We see that Jesus Christ was given a Revelation and it was God who gave the Revelation to Jesus Christ.
This is the same as what Jesus said happened before: God gave Jesus the words to speak that Jesus spoke to us.


John 17:8
8 [JESUS]For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.[/JESUS]


That's because God really did come as a man. Jesus is God come as a man, so who else was going to reveal things to Jesus the man?

I'm not a trinitarian though. I believe Jesus is God come as a son.
 

genuineoriginal

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OH, so you're not the person who said this?
That is what I said, and everyone but you can plainly see that I never accused Thomas of taking the name of God in vain in that post.
It is 7djengo7 who first accused Thomas of taking the name of God in vain and claimed that I did it.
Obviously you, [...], have no qualm about taking the LORD's name in vain in such manner as you are advocating, here, and in such manner as you are slanderously accusing Thomas of having done.

Using God's name as an interjection is, by definition, taking God's name in vain, which is, by definition, blasphemy.
Only if you don't know the scriptures nor the power of God.
I do know the scripture, so I do know that your made up rule about what is and is not taking God's name in vain is not supported by the Bible itself.

Therefore, you made the claim that Thomas blasphemed God's name, not once, but in fact TWICE in a row, by uttering "My Lord and my God."
By your standard, Paul committed blasphemy by saying that Jesus is our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.



And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

Both "Lord" and "God" are God's names.
Here is the commandment:

Exodus 20:7 ASV
7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


I hope you can see that it is the name YHVH that is specified in the commandment, not the general word "lord" or the general word "god".
If using the general word "lord" is blasphemy, then Jesus blasphemed in the parable of the wise steward.

Luke 16:5
5 [JESUS]So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?[/JESUS]



There WAS a third possibility. The first is that Thomas was calling Jesus his Lord and his God, the second is that Thomas was blaspheming God by using His name as an interjection (taking the Lord's name in vain), and the third and final possibility is that Thomas was wrongly calling Jesus God his Lord and His God.

The first fits the context, and the second two should have, if Jesus had any credibility whatsoever, caused Jesus to rebuke Thomas for his blasphemy.
It is shameful to base doctrine on a claim that Jesus did not do what you think Jesus should have done if you were right.

What you claim is that Thomas blasphemed God
No, what I claim is that Thomas did not blaspheme God with his words.

if someone uses God's name casually like that, it's called blasphemy, because it is using His name in vain.
Thomas did not use the name of God in vain, Thomas did not commit blasphemy, Thomas was not calling Jesus "my god".

Thomas said "My Lord and my God" when he saw that Jesus had truly been raised from the dead.

Thomas was giving credit for Jesus being raised from the dead to the God who raised Jesus from the dead, just like Peter does.

Acts 4:10
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.



As far as whether the words of Thomas are to be taken as a claim that Jesus is God, the writer of the Gospel of John concludes the passage by stating plainly:

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



I am sorry that these plain words are incomprehensible to you, but I can see that it does not say, "ye might believe that Jesus is God," but rather it says, "ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;"
 

genuineoriginal

New member
That is just another example of Jesus claiming to be God.
How bizarre.
I can see that the verse plainly states that Jesus said "[JESUS]I am the Son of God[/JESUS]", but somehow you are unable to see that and instead you think the verse has Jesus saying, "I am God"


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, [JESUS]Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/JESUS]
35 [JESUS]If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/JESUS]
36 [JESUS]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/JESUS]

 

Bright Raven

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How bizarre.
I can see that the verse plainly states that Jesus said "[JESUS]I am the Son of God[/JESUS]", but somehow you are unable to see that and instead you think the verse has Jesus saying, "I am God"


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, [JESUS]Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/JESUS]
35 [JESUS]If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/JESUS]
36 [JESUS]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/JESUS]


If He is only the Son of God why did they want to stone Him?
 

genuineoriginal

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​​​​​​Appeal to the stone.
Address the evidence that was presented.
I could not find any actual evidence in the spoiler presented.

Don't give me a laundry list of suppositions and innuendos and claim it is evidence.

Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and not the Messiah.
Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and not the Son of God.
Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and was not given authority by God.
Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and not made higher than the angels by God.
Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and was not made king of kings and lord of lords by God.
Show me what could only be true if Jesus was God and was not given the power to grant eternal life by God.

If you want me to address Bob Enyart's claims, pick one point out of the spoiler and ask me to address it.

I will address this one:
"And finally, denial of Christ's deity is a central teaching of many of today's cults, including for example the Jehovah's Witnesses." ~ Bob Enyart

I am not a Jehovah's Witness.
I do not deny Christ's deity, and as far as I understand from the Jehovah's Witness translation of John 1:1, neither do they.

In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1)


I do not know what the Jehovah's Witness teach about the deity of Christ, but it looks like they claim that Jesus is "a god", meaning they affirm the deity of Christ and are not denying the deity of Christ.

My belief comes from reading what the Bible actually states which show that Jesus is deity and His position is just under God and is higher than all the angels.

1 Corinthians 15:27
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.



1 Peter 3:22
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


Neither of these two verses could be true if Jesus was God instead of being the Son of God.

Here is the spoiler that contains the lack of evidence that was presented as evidence.
Spoiler

The Deity of Christ: A Different Approach


What does the Bible say about the deity of Christ? For centuries, as affirmed at the Council of Nicea, Christians have used a wonderful list of verses to demonstrate from God's Word the deity of Jesus Christ. Here is another very different approach to show the same truth. (This is similar to the "Big Picture" approach used in the overview of the Bible called The Plot.)

Thus Saith the Lord: If we count how many times the Old Testament prophets said, "Thus says the Lord" we find them using that phrase, in the New King James Version of the Bible, about 420 times. The New Testament on the other hand, never once records that phrase. Jesus Christ, with all the red ink devoted to recording His words, never once used that ubiquitous phrase, "Thus saith the Lord." Rather, Jesus proclaims, "I say to you," in the Gospels! Not a single "Thus says the Lord," but rather, "I say to you," 135 times. The following chart demonstrates biblically that these two phrases, Thus saith the Lord, and I say unto you, indicate the same thing, that God is speaking. For Jesus Christ made it clear that He Himself was at the heart of His teaching. Unlike the righteous priests and kings, prophets and the apostles, the Lord focused His message on Himself:

Christ's Self-focus:
  • "Follow Me" 19x Mt. 4:19; 8:22; 10:38; 16:24; 19:21; Mk. 1:17; 2:14; 8:34; 10:21; Lk. 5:27; 9:59; 18:22; Jn. 1:43; 8:12; 10:27; 12:26; 13:36; 21:19, 22
  • Pray and act "in My name" 18x Mt. 7:22; 18:5; 18:20; [24:5]; Mk. 9:37, 39, 41; [13:6]; Lk. 9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; Jn. 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24, 26; Acts 9:15
  • "the Holy Spirit" comes "in My name" Jn. 14:26
  • "for My name's sake" leave family and property Mt. 19:29; or even be killed 5x Mt. 24:9; [Lk. 21:12, 17;] Jn. 15:21; Acts 9:16
  • Believe in the "name of the… Son" and "in the Son" 3x Jn. 3:18, 36; 9:35 and "in Him [Jesus]" 4x Jn. 3:18; 6:29, 40; 8:31
  • "believe in Me" 14x Mt. 18:6; Mk. 9:42; Jn. 3:15-16, 18; 6:35, 47; 7:38; 11:25, 26; 12:44, 46; 14:1, 12; 16:8; 17:20
  • You "are sanctified by faith in Me" Acts 26:18
  • Live "in Me" Jn. 11:26
  • "come after Me" Mk. 8:34; Lk. 14:27
  • Abide "in Me" Jn. 15:2, 4:5, 7 "abide in Me" or else Jn. 15:6 "abide in My love" Jn. 15:9-10
  • "where two or three are gathered" Jesus is "there in the midst of them" Mt. 18:20
  • So too: "I [Jesus, will abide] in you" Jn. 15:4-5
  • "know that I am He" Jn. 8:28 or "if you do not believe that I am He you will die in your sins" Jn. 8:24
  • Do things "for My sake" Mt. 10:22, 39; even lose your life "for My sake" 4x Mt. 16:25; Mk. 8:35; 10:29; Lk. 6:22
  • "I never knew you, depart from Me" Mt. 7:23
  • "I am willing; be cleansed" Mt. 8:3; Mk.. 1:41
  • "confess Me" Mt. 10:32; Lk. 12:8
  • Do not deny "Me" 7x Mt. 10:33; 26:34; Mk. 14:30, 72; Lk. 12:9; 22:34; Jn. 13:38
  • Do not be "ashamed of Me" Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26 nor "My words"
  • "love Me" 5x Jn. 14:15, 21, 23-24, 28
  • Do not reject "Me" Lk. 10:16; Jn. 12:48
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Lk. 11:23
  • Love Me "more than" your family members Mt. 10:37; [Lk. 14:26]
  • "I… have loved you" Jn. 15:9, 12
  • Be "worthy of Me" Mt. 10:37-38
  • "Come to Me" 5x Mt. 11:28; Lk. 6:47; Jn. 5:40; 6:35; 7:37
  • "I will give you rest" Mt. 11:28
  • "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" Mt. 11:30
  • I am "greater than the temple" "than Jonah" "than Solomon" Mt. 12:6, 41-42
  • I am "Lord even of the Sabbath" Mt. 12:8; Mk. 2:28; Lk. 6:5 [Lord of God's Ten Commandments]
  • Thus He says keep "My commandments" 4x Jn. 14:15, 21; 15:10, 12
  • "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you" Jn. 15:14
  • "keep My word" Jn. 14:23-24
  • "He who is not with Me is against Me" Mt. 12:30
  • The angels are "His angels" Mt. 13:41; 16:27 and He commands "His angels" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • The kingdom is "His kingdom" Mt. 13:41 and He calls it "My kingdom" Lk. 22:30
  • Jesus called it "My church" Mt. 16:18 and believers are "My sheep" Jn. 10:14, 27 and they are "His elect" Mt. 24:31; Mk. 13:27
  • Paul is a "vessel of Mine to bear My name" Acts 9:15
  • "all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine" Jn. 17:10
  • "My peace I give" Jn. 14:27 "in Me you may have peace" Jn. 16:33
  • "My joy" should fill you Jn. 15:11
  • "Who do men say that I am?" Mt. 16:13; Mk. 8:27 "who do you say that I am?" Mt. 16:15
  • Receive "Me" Mt. 18:5; Mk. 9:37; Lk. 9:48
  • Heaven and earth will pass away but "My words" will never Mt. [5:18] 24:35; Mk. 13:31; Lk. 21:33
  • Tell others about Jesus Mk. 5:19
  • "you belong to Christ" Mk. 9:41
  • Hear "My sayings" and do them Lk. 6:47
  • Jesus has "His own glory" Lk. 9:26; [Jn. 2:11; 16:14] The Son is "glorified" 8x Jn. 11:4; 12:23; 13:31-32; [17:1, 5, 10 24]
  • "He who hears you hears Me" Lk. 10:16
  • Jesus expects praise, from stones if necessary Lk. 19:37-40
  • Return "to Me" Lk. 22:32
  • Be "My disciple" Lk. 14:27; Jn. 8:31; 15:8 Forsake all to "be My disciple" Lk. 14:33 "you are My disciples" Jn. 13:35
  • "I shall send… the [Holy] Spirit" Jn. 15:26; 16:7
  • The Holy Spirit "will testify of Me" Jn. 15:26
  • We read in John 5 and Luke 24 that "the Scriptures… testify of Me" Jn. 5:39; [Lk. 24:44]
  • "You [Apostles] also will bear witness [of Me] because you have been with Me" Jn. 15:27
  • Paul gives "testimony concerning Me" Acts 22:18; 23:11
  • "the Son gives life to whom He will" Jn. 5:21
  • "seek Me" Jn. 6:26
  • Serve "Me" Jn. 12:26
  • "all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" Jn. 5:23
  • "I am the bread of life," "of heaven," "of God" Jn. 6: 32-33, 35, 41, [48,] 51
  • Just seeing Christ is reason enough to believe in Him Jn. 6:36 [56]
  • Drink "My blood" and eat "My flesh" Jn. 6:53-54, 56
  • "I will raise him up at the last day" Jn. 6:40 for He is the resurrection
  • "The world… hates Me" Jn. 7:7
  • "I am the light of the world" Jn. 8:12; 9:5; 12:46
  • "I bear witness of Myself" Jn. 8:13-14, 18
  • "know… Jesus Christ" for "eternal life" Jn. 17:3; [8:19; 10:10, 14]
  • "the Son makes you free" Jn. 8:36
  • "Abraham rejoiced to see My day" Jn. 8:56; "Before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58
  • Of believers, Christ said, "I know them" Jn. 10:27
  • "I give them eternal life" Jn. 10:28
  • "I am the resurrection and the life" Jn. 11:25
  • I "will draw all peoples to Myself" Jn. 12:32
  • "I will… receive you to Myself" Jn. 14:3
  • Be "Mine" Jn. 14:24
  • "I am the vine" Jn. 15:5
  • "without Me you can do nothing" Jn. 15:5
  • "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you" Jn. 15:16
  • Those who oppress Christians are "persecuting Me" Acts 9:4-5; 22:7-8; 26:14-15
    "because they have not known… Me" Jn. 16:3
  • The Spirit "will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it" Jn. 16:14
  • "All things that the Father has are Mine" Jn. 16:15
  • "the Father… loves you, because you have loved Me" Jn. 16:27
  • "If I will that he remain" Jn. 21:22
  • "I have overcome the world" Jn. 16:33
  • "I am the way" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the truth" Jn. 14:6
  • "I am… the life" Jn. 14:6
  • "I will… manifest Myself" Jn. 14:21
As a summary, scores of times Jesus uses the personal pronoun My with words like: commandments, sake, words, lambs, sheep, peace, love, joy, voice, name, sayings, kingdom, angels, and church. Three examples powerfully illustrate the point. First, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day..." Secondly, "I know My sheep, and am known by My own." And thirdly, "Assuredly, I say to you... Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away." The prophets and John were the messengers; Jesus is the Message, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and put Himself at the center of His message, because He is God.

The Forest for the Trees: A simple overview of Christ's message shows overwhelmingly that He is the Message. Thus, He is either a blasphemer, or God Himself. Very strong individual verses also show the Deity of Christ. The powerful and traditional deity proof texts far more effectively show Christ's deity when presented along with the big picture above of the ministry and message of Jesus Christ. Those traditional passages include John 1:1, 14; 9:38; 20:28; Mat. 2:11; Rom. 9:5; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 1:3, 6, 8; Isa. 45:5, 18, 21 with John 1:3 and Titus 2:13; Col. 2:9 (in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead"); Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:16-17; Rev. 1:8, 18; 5:11-6:1.

The Deity of Christ and Eternal Separation: Two doctrines, the afterlife of eternal separation from God in hell, and that of the deity of Christ, are inextricably linked. Therefore many of those who deny the deity of Christ, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, Ronald Hubbard's Scientology, and Christian Science, also deny an afterlife of eternal separation from God. Why? God put eternity in our hearts (Eccl. 3:11; Ps. 148:5-6) and so only a payment of infinite worth, something greater than the eternal futures of billions of human beings, could suffice to pay the price for our combined sin. When false teachers dismiss eternal punishment in Hades, they then fail to see the necessity of a Sacrifice of infinite worth.

Jesus Is God: The dramatic contrast in the above chart shows Christ's self-presentation compared to the angels and prophets who present God to the world. These other messengers elevated not themselves, but God. They focused attention not on themselves but on Him. Godly priests, kings, and apostles presented God as their motivating message, of course, and not themselves. Jesus, on the other hand, came speaking about Himself. His most oft used, favorite title for Himself, undoubtedly selected also to communicate His mission, is not the "Son of God", but the "Son of Man". For, eternally He was the Son of God, but being the Son of Man was new to Him and uniquely cherished. God the Son submits Himself to the Father, willingly, not as a sign of a lesser God, but of His greatness. For as He lowers Himself, He is exalted to the central truth of Creation! (See the above chart.) Thus His "I say unto you" is the Scripture's "Thus Saith the Lord"!

Three in the Bible: God exists as three persons in one Godhead, whom we refer to as the Trinity. Thus human beings made in His image also have a triune nature, and the cosmos itself is understood in threes, in the most fantastic ways. Before considering this, first see the Bible's extraordinary use of this number. Christ was three days in the tomb, which Jonah's three days foreshadowed, as did Abraham's three days of thinking that he would sacrifice his son Isaac on that same hill called Golgotha and Mt. Moriah (Gen. 22:14; 2 Chron. 3:1). Israel's three patriarchs are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The priestly tribe of Levi is from Jacob's third child (Gen. 29:34), as Leviticus is the third book of the Bible. And the day the law was given, the sons of Levi killed "about three thousand men" (Ex. 32:28), whereas the day the Spirit was given, "that day about three thousand souls were [saved]" (Acts 2:41; and see 2 Cor. 3:6). The Hebrew Scriptures comprise three sections, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Luke 24:44), and God created three archangels. The most noteworthy women are Eve, Sarah, and Mary. The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. Three persons (one being the Son) started their public service at thirty years of age: Joseph (Gen. 41:46), a deliverer of his people; David (2 Sam. 5:4) seated on the messianic throne (2 Sam. 7:12-13); and "Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23). God could have led Esther to fast for two days, or four; and He could have kept Jonah in the whale for one day, or a week, but three days and three nights prefigures God’s plan of salvation for Christ's time in the grave. For Jesus "rose again the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:4). And thus, the triune Christian God, the mystery of the Trinity, Three Persons in One God, is the one God whose testimony we can trust (answering both the philosophical problem of the origin of the one and the many, and Euthyphro's Dilemma by Socrates), having imprinted our world and even ourselves with His triune nature.

Threes Everywhere: The number three manifested in Scripture turns the Christian's attention outward to see space existing in three dimensions, height, width, and length, as does time in past, present and future. The electromagnetic force operates in positive, negative, and neutral, and in pigment the three primary colors are red, yellow, and blue whereas in light they are red, green, and blue which three blend into the hues of the rainbow. We human beings on this third planet from the Sun experience matter primarily in three states, solid, liquid, and gas. The strongest shape for building is the triangle. Writers often give three examples and artists group in threes as in interior design, sculpting, and even movie directors, as they have the word trilogy (1, 2, 3) but no word for any other number of films. Photographers use the rule of thirds and the language of DNA uses only three-letter words. Everything reinforces the triune aspect of all of existence, a reflection of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. See more at kgov.com/3.

Tripartite Man: And so we humans are body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). For God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…" (Gen. 1:26). So mankind is made in God's image and likeness, image referring to our form, and likeness to our essence as sentient, morally-responsible persons. And unlike animals which look to the ground, men and women stand upright with a heavenly gaze. For the first thing that God created was a form, that is, an image, for the eternal Son to indwell (Col. 1:15; Rev. 3:14: Heb. 1:3; 5:5; 10:5; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 1:14; Phil. 2:5-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; Rev. 1:13-18). And in that image "He made man" (Gen. 9:6), and not in the image of apes. "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them (Gen. 1:27).

The Plurality in God: The very first verse of Genesis presents the plurality of God, with Genesis 1:1 using a plural subject and a singular verb, that is, In the beginning gods He created the heavens and the earth. Elohim is the plural of the typical Hebrew word for God, which is El (cherub and seraph for example become plural as cherubim and seraphim, with Elah likely being the dual form, and Elohim being a plurality, in this case, three for the triune God). So, did Moses make a grammatical error in the first sentence of the first book of Scripture, in what has become not only the world's best-selling book, but in the most well-known sentence in the history of the world by using a singular verb with a plural subject? Of course not. For this was intentional. The Hebrew Scriptures in the most solemn texts presents God as a unified plurality. What grammarians refer to as the "royal we" comes from God's references to Himself using the plural: "Let Us make man in Our image," (Gen. 1:26). The solemn Hebrew prayer, called the Shema Yisroel, to the "one God" uses another plurality. For "The Lord our God, the Lord is One (of plurality)" at Deuteronomy 6:4 uses neither of the expected terms, yachad or even bad, words meaning a singularity, but God's Word uses the word echad, which is one in plurality as used by God at the Tower of Babel, "the people are one," and by Joseph "the dreams of Pharaoh are one," and by Moses, "the people answered with one voice," and back again to the beginning of Genesis at the institution of marriage when God says, "and they shall become one flesh." So this foundation prayer to God does not the use the Hebrew words for one, which mean a singularity (which words are never used in the Bible referring to God), but God describes Himself in the Bible using the One of plurality. So the Shema says: the Jehovah (who is the one God) our Elohim (plural) Jehovah is a Plural Unity! And Deuteronomy 6:4 is the central passage to all theology of God. Then the Scriptures go on to teach that the three Persons of the Trinity are God the Father (Isa. 63:16; Mal. 2:10), God the Son (Ps. 2:12; Zech. 12:10 and as in the chart above), and God the Spirit (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 48:16; Isa. 6:3; Rom. 5:5). See also Mat. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4, 9; 2 Cor. 13:14, and Psalm 110:1 with Matthew 22:41-46, and verses that show the personhood of the Spirit including Heb. 10:15-17.

And finally, denial of Christ's deity is a central teaching of many of today's cults, including for example the Jehovah's Witnesses. A lack of understanding of the plurality of the Godhead creates philosophical dilemmas such as the problem of the one and the many. And Socrates' pre-Christian argument against God called Euthyphro's Dilemma is resolved by none of the world's religions except for the Christian Answer to Euthyphro in the eternal corroborating testimony of the three Witnesses of the Trinity.

-Bob Enyart,



http://kgov.com/deity
 

Right Divider

Body part
How bizarre.
I can see that the verse plainly states that Jesus said "[JESUS]I am the Son of God[/JESUS]", but somehow you are unable to see that and instead you think the verse has Jesus saying, "I am God"


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, [JESUS]Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/JESUS]
35 [JESUS]If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/JESUS]
36 [JESUS]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/JESUS]


THE Son of God is God.


Heb 1:8 KJV But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
THE Son of God is God.
Heb 1:8 KJV But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), which means anointed one.
Who is the God, thy God who anointed Jesus and who are all of the fellows of Jesus that Jesus is above?

Psalm 45:6-7
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


If Jesus is God, why would it matter to God whether Jesus loves righteousness and hates wickedness?

Don't forget that Ye are gods also comes from the Psalms, and doesn't refer to Jesus or to the Father.

John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, [JESUS]Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/JESUS]
35 [JESUS]If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/JESUS]
36 [JESUS]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/JESUS]

 

Theo102

New member
THE Son of God is God.


Heb 1:8 KJV But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
"God" is ambiguous, as is the phrase "Son of God". "God" can refer to a single being or a plurality of beings. From the context "Son of God" means someone like King David.

Hebrews 1:5 draws from Psalms 2:7:

I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psalms 2:7

Hebrews 1:6, which draws from Psalm 148:2, is different:

Praise ye YHWH. Praise ye YHWH from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psalm 148:1-2

Hebrews 1:8 draws from Psalm 45:6:

Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
Thy throne, O Elohim, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Psalm 45:6
 

Theo102

New member
Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), which means anointed one.
Who is the God, thy God who anointed Jesus and who are all of the fellows of Jesus that Jesus is above?

Psalm 45:6-7
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


The English translation of Psalm 45:7 is misleading, since the two instances of "God" are translations of different Hebrew words, one plural, one singular.

אהבת צדק ותשנא רשע על כן משחך אלהים אלהיך שמן ששון מחבריך
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalm 45:7

The phrase occurs one other time in the Psalms.

<A Psalm of Asaph.> The mighty God, [even] the LORD[אל אלהים יהוה], hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
Psalm 50:1, KJV

שמעה עמי ואדברה ישראל ואעידה בך אלהים אלהיך אנכי
Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God.
Psalm 50:7
 

God's Truth

New member
How bizarre.
I can see that the verse plainly states that Jesus said "[JESUS]I am the Son of God[/JESUS]", but somehow you are unable to see that and instead you think the verse has Jesus saying, "I am God"


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, [JESUS]Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/JESUS]
35 [JESUS]If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/JESUS]
36 [JESUS]Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/JESUS]


God came as a man. What else would he be called but a son? God really came as a man.
 

God's Truth

New member
genuineoriginal

When a saved person receives the Holy Spirit, they receive the Father and Jesus. So if Jesus isn't God, how do you have Jesus himself living in you when you receive the Holy Spirit?
We are only given one Spirit.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
genuineoriginal

When a saved person receives the Holy Spirit, they receive the Father and Jesus. So if Jesus isn't God, how do you have Jesus himself living in you when you receive the Holy Spirit?
Jesus said both Jesus and the Father would make their abode with man, but never tells how they would do it.

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.[/JESUS]


We are only given one Spirit.
You seem quite sure of that, do you have any verses to back that statement up?
 

Theo102

New member
I am still waiting for someone, anyone, to provide scripture that says that God came as a man, instead of merely repeating the extra-Biblical doctrines that the church teaches.
"God" is ambiguous, but this might be relevant:

And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exodus 7:1

I have said, Ye are Elohim; and all of you are children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalm 82:6-7
 

NWL

Active member
You're a liar or a fool or both.

"Ad Hominem" is not a term that is synonymous with "calling someone names", it's a form of argument. It's a fallacious form of argument but a form nonetheless. It happens when someone either states directly or implies that someone's position is false on the basis of their stupidity or whatever other pajorative they've used. I have made no such argumnent. The fact that I can make right judgments about your mental state and feel free to comment on that state has nothing to do with my argument against your position.

In short, if you're going to try and act like you're the smartest man in the room, you might want to maintain a proper understanding of the multisyllablic words you attempt to use in a sentence.

It very embarrassing when someone has the internet at their fingertips and still gets the definition of words wrong. Ad hominem doesn't only or typically, as you stated, relate to when someone makes a claim that the other party position is false based on his stupidity. I maintain and still express that you are using your shock and mocks to attack my character, wittingly or unwittingly it doesn't matter, instead of dealing with the argument I laid out as you were unable to answer my previous question.

Google - dictionary
Ad hominem - (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
Wikipedia
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument,
Cambridge Dictionary
Ad hominem - (of a criticism, etc.) directed against a person, rather than against what that person says
Dictonary.com
Ad hominem - attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

if you're going to try and act like you're the smartest man in the room, you might want to maintain a proper understanding of the multisyllablic words you attempt to use in a sentence.

Maintain I'm the smartest person in the room? I've never stated or have implied this. You are the one that should learn the basic meaning of words or a least do your homework if you attempt to try and pull someone up on the dentition of something and you yourself get it wrong.

No, there were no questions to answer that didn't presuppose your premise. No one with any brain will ever answer such questions because they'd have to concede your side of the debate to even address them. Instead, I crushed your premise to powder by doing nothing at all but quoting the scripture and letting everyone read it for themselves. That, and pointing out that your own argument used evidence that proves your position wrong as if it proves the opposite. Which, by the way, is a neat tactic unless you're dealing with someone who knows how to both read and think clearly.

It's a stupid question!

You have above claimed my positions pre-supposed hence why you won't answer my question because it lies on a false premise, I will show how this is wrong and it's just you being in denial about what scripture plainly states and you being unable to answer the question that has demolished your understanding of the identity of the A&O in one swoop.

I've made an observation about scripture, namely the A&O in Rev 1:8 also has the title "the one who is, was, and is coming", this is clearly not pre-supposed as Rev 1:8 clearly states "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

I've made another observation, namely, an Angel sends blessing to John and others in Rev 1,4,5 and states who the blessing are from saying "John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,”and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ".

It is John who mentions "the one who is, was and is coming" and separate from "Jesus Christ", please show me how this is PRE-SUPPOSED for you to claim I have pre-supposed my premise? I am the one taking the context of Rev 1:4,5 which precedes Rev 1:8 and applying to the context to Rev 1:8. If John writes that "the one who is, was and is coming" as separate from "Jesus Christ" in v4,5 and then I read v8, one can only use the context of v4,5 to understand who or who is NOT speaking in v8. You, on the other hand, are reading v8 apart from v4,5, then ignore what it says and claim I'm presupposing something despite it clearly being written. You are simply making up excuses as you are unable to deal with the question, you are blinding yourself from the truth, you are hardening your own heart.


This is the ridiculous question that you've been crying about no one answering? Really?

This is one of many many question people are unable to answer, there is no list I keep, it's just in normal conversation I pose questions in relation to what the topic is, people such as yourself realize the conundrum they're in and do their best to make an excuse to not answer the question. You, for example, are claiming I've pre-supposed something despite it clearly being written and therefore refuse to deal with the question, you think throwing more and more evidence into the mix will somehow detangles the contradiction when it does not.

Do you understand what the Trinity doctrine teaches? Have I been wasting my time debating the Trinity with a slobber mouthed moron who doesn't even understand what the Trinity doctrine is?!

In fact, I will not answer your question until you answer that one. In fact, I will not post another word in response to anything you say unless it includes a direct answer to the question "What does the doctrine of the Trinity teach?"

What does our topic of the idenitity of Rev 1:8 and the A&O have anything to do with the trinity? There is nothing I've said which has seemed to show a lack of understanding of the trinity nor does the topic in hand rely on it. I see this as nothing more than a smokescreen attempt to either deflect and change topic or you finding an excuse to get out of talking to me without losing face. I will play along with your game nonetheless.

The Trinity doctrine teaches there is one God who is three-person, namely the Father, Son and HS. These three persons are three distinct persons all of them forming the one God having a single divine nature. All three persons are co-equal, co-eternal one in essence, nature, power, action and will. I keep a picture of the below in my bible as I often have to teach trinitarians what they themselves are meant to believe about the trinity.

Trinity


NWL said:
1) Why does the apostle [John] show that Jesus is separate from the "one who is, was and is coming" in v4,5, namely the A&O, if he is the "one who is, was and is coming" in v8?
Clete said:
He doesn't.

Then explain why in the following "May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,”and from the seven spirits that are before his throne,and from Jesus Christ" its says "and from Jesus" if Jesus is the “the One who is and who was and who is coming?


[1]What does it prove? What do you think it proves?

[2]Who is the root of David if not God?

[3]Who do you say is the Root of David if not God and what could that phrase possibly mean in regards to a person that didn't exist until a thousand years after David died?!

1) Nothing, hence why I said it proves nothing and stated if you think it does explain how and I give a reply.

2) Why do you believe the root of David has to refer to God? Where are your scriptural reasons as to why it has to refer to God.

3) Jesus is the root of David, to be the "root" of someone relates to being their offspring, this is especially clear in the case of Jesus as Rev 22:16 has Jesus himself stating "I am the root and the descendant of David and the bright morning star". What you are doing is presupposing Jesus is the one God and then claiming God is the root of David. I do not deny Jesus is the root of David I deny he is the one God.

NWL said:
I believe Jesus is the Root of David, this doesn't prove he's the trinity, the one God or the A&O.
Clete said:
Saying it doesn't make it so.

I don't get why you made this comment. Jesus is the root of David, this is clear from the bible, you yourself accept this. Furthermore, you're correct, just because I said "Jesus being the root of David doesn't prove the trinity, he's the one God or A&O" doesn't make it so just because I said it, hence why I asked you to show how it does, you have given no explanation as to how it does so can only presume it does not. Your statement was pointless.

All you have to do is read it. You don't need one single syllable more than what I quoted to fully understand what is being said.

Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

Jesus claims to be both that which came before and that which came after, BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David.

It's as perfectly crystal clear as it can possibly be to anyone who can read.

You have a clear misunderstanding of the understanding of being root of someone. There isn't a scholar, church or theologian today that writings I have read or know of that understands "root of David", "root of Jesse" or root of anyone to mean anything other than being a descendant of someone. Notice what all of these esteemed Trinitarians scholars say regarding Jesus being the root of David and Jesse:

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
A root of Jesse.—Strictly, the root, or, root-shoot of Jesse, as in Proverbs 5:5—i.e,. the expected descendant of Jesse’s line, which, to bring out its intimate connection with the founder of the line, and to distinguish it from all other collateral branches, is identified with the very root, or first shoot, of the line itself.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Jesus the Root of David - Not the Root of David in the sense that David sprung from him as a tree does from a root, but in the sense that he himself was a "root-shoot" or sprout from David, and had sprung from him as a shoot or sprout springs up from a decayed and fallen tree
There shall be a root - A descendant, or one that should proceed from him when he was dead.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
root of Jesse—meaning, not "He from whom Jesse sprang," but "He that is sprung from Jesse" (that is, Jesse's son David)—see Re 22:16.
root … offspring of David—appropriate title here where assuring His Church of "the sure mercies of David," secured to Israel first, and through Israel to the Gentiles. Root of David, as being Jehovah; the offspring of David as man.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
""and there shall be a root of Jesse"; the meaning is, , "which goes out from the root of Jesse", according to Isaiah 11:1, for "Jesse" is the root
Meyer's NT Commentary
He is the root-shoot of Jesse, because Jesse is the root from which He springs
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
[the root and the offspring of David] He bears the former title in Revelation 5:5, where see note. The latter is substantially the same as the familiar one, “the Son of David.”

Jesus as the root of David means he is the descendant of David and does not that he was the One God who preceded and established David, you do not understand basic bible language, no wonder I was perplexed at your reasoning of Jesus being God because he was the "root of David".

I quoted the relevant passages. Who else in the bible was raised from the dead besides Jesus?

Lazarus? Are you suggesting that these letters to the seven churches were dictated by Lazarus? Maybe it was Tabitha! Peter raised Tabitha from the dead in Acts 9, maybe it was her!

In all, I think there are ten different instances where a person or group of people were raised from the dead in the bible, including Jesus Christ. If it wasn't Jesus dictating those letters to John then who was it?

That's another question I'll insist on getting a direct answer to before this goes any further. We'll see who answers questions around here and who doesn't.

How can you insist on getting a direct answer when you don't answer mine?

You asked "Who else in the bible was raised from the dead besides Jesus", as you stated there were a number of people that were, you gave the number 10 and trust you know that much about the bible for that to be correct. However, I do not understand your point or where you're going with this so please elaborate, what does the number of people being resurrected have to do with anything we are talking about?

Except that it wasn't God the Father that was dead and is now alive forevermore. Good greif you're stupid. Why am I wasting this much time with you? Did you even read my post or the passages that I quoted?

You once stated I "resorted to condescension and stupidity rather than anything honest or even rationally coherent", so far you've been the only one whose shown a stupid attitude, been condescending and ignore rational argument (Rev 1:4,5 and my argument), you are the person you described me to be. Nonetheless, let me continue.

You are piecing together different titles and assuming they are the same, I can understand why you think I'm stupid as it's your misuse and ignorance of the text and my difference of opinion that is leading you to believe my points don't make sense, let me make myself clear and expand on where we went wrong.

You believe the titles "first and last" and "alpha and Omega" are synonymous, they are not, when Jesus is called "the first and last" the context of the title is about is death and resurrection, both Rev 1:18 and Rev 2:8 state:

(Revelation 1:18) “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,  and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever.

(Revelation 2:8) “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’
who became dead and came to life again:

If the F&L is synonymous with Jesus being the almighty and A&O its no doubt Jesus speaking in regards to his divine nature, would it not, if this is the case and the F&L is synonymous with the A&O of Rev 1:8 then Almighty God in his divine nature is saying "I BECAME DEAD", yet the almighty CANNOT die, how absurd. You cannot claim Jesus is speaking in is human nature because he clearly calls himself the F&L, which to you is synonymous with him being the A&O and the almighty. Jesus being the F&L has to mean something different than the title of A&O, and again it is clear it does as the context of him being the first and him being the last has something to do with his death and his resurrection. Coincidently, Jesus is the only person and the first person in the ENTIRE bible to be resurrected by the Father directly, and he is also the last person to be resurrected by the Father directly, it is in this sense he is the first and the last, the title has nothing to do with the title of Alpha and Omega.


Quite the contrary. I'm the opposite of a King James Only dingbat conspiracy theorist.

Evidenced by the fact that I did not quote the King James Bible.

And whether you like it or not, Revelation 1:11 says what it says. I didn't write it and you can't prove that the phrase, which is used repeatedly throughout the chapter doesn't belong in verse 11. Someone with a one heck of a lot more knowledge, skill and expertise than either of us translated a bible into English that stood as the standard for the English language itself for centuries, used manuscripts that included “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,".

Not only that, but it seems clear enough to me that it's just a repeat of what was already quoted in verse 8.

Finally, I don't even need verse 11! My argument doesn't rest solely on that one verse! I have the entire chapter 1 and verses throughout the book of Revelation to make this point not to mention the several passages in and indeed the entire theme of the Gospel of John!

The evidence is that Rev 1:11 where it mentions the A&O and F&L is not found in any of the oldest manuscripts and is classed as spurious. It is NOT a repeat of v8 as it inserts the title F&L and implies the F&L and the A&O are the same people despite literally no other text doing this.

Your case does not rest on one verse as your understanding contradicts Jesus being separate from the person speaking in v8, you have said next to nothing in regards to this so your case is hardly rested.

Saying it doesn't make it so. I have quoted the passages that directly contradict your doctrine.

Again, this ridiculous argument smacks its face against what the Trinity doctrine teaches, which you seem not to even understand.

Revelation 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

The Apostle John just keep clubbing you over the head! (I bet you don't even see the point here.)

Indeed, that John 5 passage is another one where Jesus is claiming equality with the Father. The only ones who don't see it are the ones trying not to see it because of their pet doctrines.

Clete

You keep quoting scripture and leave it up to me to discern your position, stop doing this. Quote verses and also explain your position. From the above, I've gathered because Rev 16:5,6 mentions the "one who is, who was and is coming" and speaks of him judging and John 5:21 states God entrusted all judging to Jesus, that Jesus must be the one being spoken of in Rev 16:5,6 because it states he is judging and Jesus now judges all.

Firstly, the judging in John 5:21,22 is in relation to the judging of the dead pertaining to the resurrection, this is clear by such passages as 2 Tim 4:1 that say "Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead", the "judging" isn't in relation to general good judgment of any matter but the judging of the dead. Revelation 16:5 is about God's judgment on pouring the seven bowls on the earth, thus the judgments being mentioned are not referring to the same judging but two different types of judgment. So your attempt to link them by saying "hey look Jesus now does all the judging of the dead" and "hey look the one who is who was and is coming has good judgment because he chose to pour out the seven bowls" is not evidence they are the same person.

Moreover, even if a verse stated the "one who is was and is coming judged someone" this still isn't evidence they are the same person, this is because despite the Father entrusting all the judging to Jesus HE STILL IS THE JUDGE, he simply judges through Jesus as HE is the one who has appointed him, this is scriptural and irrefutable:

"..Because he [the Father] has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.”(Acts 17:31)

The Father judges the earth through his son whom he appointed as judge, so again even if the "one who is was and is coming" is stated as judging it doesn't prove that one is Jesus, since both the Father and "the person whom the father appointed" as judge, are judges and do judge.
 
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JudgeRightly

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2) Why do you believe the root of David has to refer to God?

Because roots are the foundation, so to speak, of a plant.

The seeds are the offspring.

Two completely different parts.

Where are your scriptural reasons as to why it has to refer to God.

3) Jesus is the root of David, to be the "root" of someone relates to being their offspring,

Sorry, I hate to break it to you but... Seeds don't come from the roots.

this is especially clear in the case of Jesus as Rev 22:16 has Jesus himself stating "I am the root and the descendant of David


"Root" and "Descendant" are mutually exclusive terms here. The fact that Jesus uses BOTH to describe Himself show that He is God.

I don't get why you made this comment. Jesus is the root of David,

In terms of family trees, roots are typically associated with ancestors of those depicted on the branches.

Jesus is claiming to be the root AND the fruit hanging on the branches, with David being somewhere in between, which is not possible for any normal person.

He's basically claiming to be His own ancestor, though instead of being a human ancestor, He's making the claim of being the CREATOR who made man.

You have a clear misunderstanding of the understanding of being root of someone.

That's ironic....

There isn't a scholar, church or theologian

Appeal to authority.

today that understands "root of David", "root of Jesse" or root of anyone to mean anything other than being a descendant of someone.

Except that's NOT what it means.

It means ANCESTOR, NOT DESCENDANT.

Anyone who knows how a family tree works knows that the lower on the tree you go, you go further BACK in the family's ancestry. Move higher, and you move towards the more recent offspring.

Notice what all of these esteemed Trinitarians scholars

Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

How can you insist on getting a direct answer when you don't answer mine?

You asked "Who else in the bible was raised from the dead besides Jesus", as you stated there were a number of people that were, you gave the number 10 and trust you know that much about the bible for that to be correct. However, I do not understand your point or where you're going with this so please elaborate, what does the number of people being resurrected have to do with anything we are talking about?

Of the people who were raised back to life, who are these verses talking about?:

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, - Revelation 1:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...5&version=NKJV

[JESUS]I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.[/JESUS] - Revelation 1:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

[JESUS]“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:[/JESUS] - Revelation 2:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

That's how the question Clete asked is relevant.

You believe the titles "first and last" and "alpha and Omega" are synonymous, they are not, when Jesus is called "the first and last2 the context of the title is about is death and resurrection, both Rev 1:18 and Rev 2:8 state:

(Revelation 1:18) “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,  and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever.

(Revelation 2:8) “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’
who became dead and came to life again:

If the F&L is synonymous with Jesus being the almighty and A&O its no doubt Jesus speaking in regards to his divine nature, would it not, if this is the case and the F&L is synonymous with the A&O of Rev 1:8 then Almighty God in his divine nature is saying "I BECAME DEAD", yet the almighty CANNOT die, how absurd. You cannot claim Jesus is speaking in is human nature because he clearly calls himself the F&L which to you is synonymous with him being the A&O and the almighty. Jesus being the F&L HAS to mean something different that the title of A&O, and again it is clear it does as the context of him being the first and him being the last has something to do with his death and his resurrection. Coincidently Jesus is the only person and the first person in the ENTIRE bible to be resurrected by the Father directly, and he is also the the last person to be resurrected by the Father directly, it is in this sense he is the first and the last, the title has nothing to do with the title of Alpha and Omega.

Clete tagging you here so you don't have to wade through his post.

@NWL In other words, your argument boils down to this:

"Because God cannot die, therefore Christ is not God, because Christ died."

Did I get that right?

If so, would you be so kind as to define what you mean by "die" in your statement, "God cannot die"?
 
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