Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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genuineoriginal

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This isn't the first occurrence of this in scripture. Moses began Genesis with the exact same sort of thing.

Genesis 1: In the beginning God (Elohim - plural) created (singular verb) the Heavens and the Earth.

In effect, Moses wrote, "In the beginning Gods, He created the Heavens and the Earth.

And this is in even the oldest of manuscript and so it no mistake or addition or anything like that. Moses either stated the very first sentence of his most important book with an error of grammar or he intentionally was conveying the idea that there is some kind of plurality within the singular God.
When Moses wrote the first verse of Genesis, every nation had a pantheon of gods that they worshiped, and elohiym is the word for the pantheon of gods.
Instead of trying to convey that there is some kind of plurality within a singular God (El), Moses was doing the opposite: conveying that there was a singular God (El) who comprised the entire pantheon of gods to be worshiped by the children of Israel.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Plural noun, followed by a singular verb. Genesis 1:1 is the most studied sentence in all of history.

In the beginning [Gods] [He created]...

Either Moses messed up the first sentence in the Bible (highly unlikely, as he was well educated), or he was intentionally using a plural noun with a singular verb to indicate a plurality in God, which in any other context would be incorrect grammar.

As Clete said, you have to come with the a priori belief that God is not triune to make the verse say anything other than that God is a plurality.
Your argument fails because it does not take into account the beliefs of the people at the time Genesis was written.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 is when Jesus was declared to be God, and The Council of Constantinople in 381 is when the Holy Spirit was declared to be God.

Before that, nobody reading the Bible even considered that God could be triune.

We have to put aside any priori belief that God is triune and examine the verse with the goal of understanding what the original audience would have understood.

The children of Israel in the original audience knew that every nation worshiped a pantheon of gods.
Moses was teaching them to worship a single God instead of worshiping a pantheon of gods the way that Egypt and all the surrounding nations worshiped.

The entire pantheon of gods (elohiyn) that the children of Israel were to worship consisted of a single God (El) known as YHVH.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You're the one who made the claim that Thomas was taking the Lord's name in vain
I am not the one that made the claim that Thomas was taking the Lord's name in vain.
Thomas never even said the Lord's name in any of the sentences that the Bible records Thomas' words.
Here's a hint: Thomas wasn't taking the Lord's name in vain.
Yes, I made that point as well.
So, GO, my question to you is this: Why do you think that Thomas blasphemed
I don't think that, I think you misunderstand Thomas' words
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I just gave you PLENTY of evidence that Jesus claims to be God from throughout the Bible.
I am still waiting to see any of this evidence you claim to have.
I looked through your spoiler and found nothing but suppositions and innuendos, no evidence.

Do you believe that God sent Jesus or not?


John 5:24
24 [JESUS]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/JESUS]

 

genuineoriginal

New member
Your problem is that you do not understand the basic Scripture John 1:1

​​​​​​ John 1:1 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

Prologue


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Who is the Word?
Your problem is that you are applying concepts that were developed centuries after John was written and making the false assumption that the writer and original first century audience believed those concepts instead of what they actually believed.



Logos. A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.


In the beginning was the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason, the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason was with God, and God was the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason.

Who dwelt among us (John 1:14)? What is your take on it?


John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason of God was made flesh, a single man who characterized everything God wanted from mankind.
As Peter said:


Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:



Paul taught that Jesus stands between us and God


1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Is Paul lying about it?
 

Right Divider

Body part
(Jeremiah 23:1-8 [KJVPCE]) [1] Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. [2] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. [3] And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. [4] And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. [5] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. [6] In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [7] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [8] But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Who is the King that shall reign and prosper? (Hint: Jesus is God).
 

Bright Raven

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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Your problem is that you are applying concepts that were developed centuries after John was written and making the false assumption that the writer and original first century audience believed those concepts instead of what they actually believed.



Logos. A principle originating in classical Greek thought which refers to a universal divine reason, immanent in nature, yet transcending all oppositions and imperfections in the cosmos and humanity. An eternal and unchanging truth present from the time of creation, available to every individual who seeks it.


In the beginning was the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason, the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason was with God, and God was the eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason.




John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


The eternal and unchanging truth of the divine reason of God was made flesh, a single man who characterized everything God wanted from mankind.
As Peter said:


Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:



Paul taught that Jesus stands between us and God


1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Is Paul lying about it?

I'm not talking about concepts. I'm talking about what the Word of God says.
 

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings Right Divider,
(Jeremiah 23: [KJVPCE]) [5] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. [6] In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Who is the King that shall reign and prosper? (Hint: Jesus is God).
Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the son of David through Mary. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father raised up Jesus by means of His conception and birth and education. Jesus fully revealed the character of His Father during His ministry, He was full of grace and truth, and he never sinned, and God through His Son thus established a new basis for the forgiveness of sins through His death and resurrection. When we believe into Him and identify with His death and resurrection, our faith is counted for righteousness and our sins are forgiven. God’s purpose anticipated in His Name Yahweh, He will be or become, is thus revealed and accomplished in and through Jesus, the Son of God, and Jesus thus bears God’s Name, Yahweh our righteousness. God’s purpose is fulfilled in His Son.


Kind regards
Trevor
 

genuineoriginal

New member
(Jeremiah 23:1-8 [KJVPCE]) [1] Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. [2] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. [3] And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. [4] And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. [5] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. [6] In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [7] Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; [8] But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Who is the King that shall reign and prosper?
That is obviously speaking about the righteousness of God that is by faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



You know, Jesus Christ the Son of God who God sent to be a propitiation for our sins?


1 John 4:9-10
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.



Does the Bible teach that God sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, or does the Bible teach that God Himself came to be the propitiation for our sins?
 

Bright Raven

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Hall of Fame
You have to try to understand what the writer and readers would have thought about what the words were trying to convey to avoid giving a false interpretation.

I agree that you must have a proper interpretation in order to understand a passage. Your interpretation of John 1:1, 14 is incorrect so I why have an erroneous understanding of the verses.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
I agree that you must have a proper interpretation in order to understand a passage. Your interpretation of John 1:1, 14 is incorrect so I why have an erroneous understanding of the verses.
You are actually disagreeing by claiming the distorted interpretation we are now taught is the correct one and dismissing any interpretation that uses the cultural, historic, and linguistic clues to show the meaning of the verses.
 

Theo102

New member
The fact of the matter is that it's a plural noun being used with a singular verb, which not even YOU deny!
The point is that I'm not wrong about Genesis 1:1

There is plenty special about the number 3, throughout the Bible and throughout creation.
There's also plenty special about the number 7, why choose 3 instead of 7?

Genesis 14:18, "el" is used, and it's singular.
The point is that el isn't the singular form of elohim.




Morphology: N-MPC
Part of Speech:
- N: Noun

Grammatical Categories:
- Gender M: Masculine
- Number P: Plural
- State C: Genitival Pronoun

Morphology: 1CPGrammatical Categories:
- Person 1: 1st Person
- Gender C: Common
- Number P: Plural



Elohenu is plural.
No, your app is conflating elohenu with elohim. I've shown you that abenu is singular, and that it has the same yod-nun-waw suffix group as elohenu.

Here it is again:

And our father[אבינו] said, Go again, [and] buy us a little food.
Genesis 44:45

And here's the plural form (feminine plural waw-tau instead of masculine plural yud-mem)

And thou shalt go to thy fathers[אבותיך] in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Sorry, but the definition of "echad" is in fact "one of unity," "united." The fact that echad was used by definition means there is a plurality being talked about in the passage.

No, usage trumps translator bias. Here are some examples of echad not representing a unity of things:

And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one[אחד] of the shrubs.
Genesis 21:25

And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children [are] tender, and the flocks and herds with young [are] with me: and if men should overdrive them one[אחד] day, all the flock will die.
Genesis 31:33

We [are] all one [אחד] man's sons; we [are] true [men], thy servants are no spies.
Genesis 42:11
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Not even close. To call a man (the King that God will send) LORD is blaspheme. But you're OK with that, you condone it all the time.
I figure that Jesus knows a lot more about what is proper and what is blasphemy than you do.


John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?



According to your standards, Asaph who wrote Psalm 82 is a blasphemer and Jesus is a blasphemer for saying that the words Asaph wrote are the words of God.
 

JudgeRightly

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I am not the one that made the claim that Thomas was taking the Lord's name in vain.

OH, so you're not the person who said this?

If someone startles you and you respond, "My God," are you calling that person God or are you expressing suprise?

my God
An exclamation of surprise, alarm, dismay, annoyance, or exasperation.

my God
An interjection denoting shock, distress, or surprise.


???

Using God's name as an interjection is, by definition, taking God's name in vain, which is, by definition, blasphemy.

Therefore, you made the claim that Thomas blasphemed God's name, not once, but in fact TWICE in a row, by uttering "My Lord and my God."

Thomas never even said the Lord's name in any of the sentences that the Bible records Thomas' words.

How dumb can you be?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John20:28&version=NKJV

Both "Lord" and "God" are God's names.

Or do you think that by "Lord" I'm just referring to Jesus, and not referring to God, when I even quoted Exodus 20:7 to point out where God forbids people using His name in vain? Because if you do, then you must apparently think it's possible to blaspheme other beings besides God... :dunce:

Oh, I remember now! There WAS a third possibility (So you were right earlier when you accused me of a false dichotomy. I apologize for being so forgetful!) The first is that Thomas was calling Jesus his Lord and his God, the second is that Thomas was blaspheming God by using His name as an interjection (taking the Lord's name in vain), and the third and final possibility is that Thomas was wrongly calling Jesus God his Lord and His God.

The first fits the context, and the second two should have, if Jesus had any credibility whatsoever, caused Jesus to rebuke Thomas for his blasphemy.

Jesus was either lying, a lunatic, or He was LORD. Either of the first two would instantly disqualify Him as trustworthy.

Yes, I made that point as well.

I don't think that, I think you misunderstand Thomas' words

I understand what he said perfectly, because I don't ignore the context of what he said in favor of what I believe.

You, on the other hand, don't understand your position well enough to know what it is that you're actually saying, that or you're being willfully ignorant of the truth.

What you claim is that Thomas blasphemed God because he was "surprised" or "shocked" when he touched Christ's wounds.

That's what you claim when you say he used God's name as an interjection.

To readdress this:

If someone startles you and you respond, "My God," are you calling that person God or are you expressing suprise?

If you if someone uses God's name casually like that, it's called blasphemy, because it is using His name in vain.
 
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