Intellectual dishonesty, remember those words at all Clete, it was you who said them, and yet here you are using ad hominem against me. lol.
You're a liar or a fool or both.
"Ad Hominem" is not a term that is synonymous with "calling someone names", it's a form of argument. It's a fallacious form of argument but a form nonetheless. It happens when someone either states directly or implies that someone's position is false
on the basis of their stupidity or whatever other pajorative they've used. I have made no such argumnent. The fact that I can make right judgments about your mental state and feel free to comment on that state has nothing to do with my argument against your position.
In short, if you're going to try and act like you're the smartest man in the room, you might want to maintain a proper understanding of the multisyllablic words you attempt to use in a sentence.
Notice you, like many others, do not and cannot deal with the question(s) I pose, instead of dealing with the clear contradiction I showed with what the bible says and what you believe, you go further and try and prove Jesus is the A&O again.
No, there were no questions to answer that didn't presuppose your premise. No one with any brain will ever answer such questions because they'd have to concede your side of the debate to even address them. Instead, I crushed your premise to powder by doing nothing at all but quoting the scripture and letting everyone read it for themselves. That, and pointing out that your own argument used evidence that proves your position wrong as if it proves the opposite. Which, by the way, is a neat tactic unless you're dealing with someone who knows how to both read and think clearly.
Again, answer my question, John clearly identifies Jesus as separate from the "one who is, was and is coming", this is clear when v4 says blessings "from the A&O, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus". It does not matter if you have more evidence that Jesus is the A&O, I understood your position when you wrote your first post to me, further defining your understanding to me doesn't explain the clear contradiction I've shown.
Deal with my question! You are no better than the others.
It's a stupid question!
This is the ridiculous question that you've been crying about no one answering? Really?
Do you understand what the Trinity doctrine teaches? Have I been wasting my time debating the Trinity with a slobber mouthed moron who doesn't even understand what the Trinity doctrine is?!
In fact, I will not answer your question until you answer that one. In fact, I will not post another word in response to anything you say unless it includes a direct answer to the question "What does the doctrine of the Trinity teach?"
1) Why does the apostle [John] show that Jesus is separate from the "one who is, was and is coming" in v4,5, namely the A&O, if he is the "one who is, was and is coming" in v8?
He doesn't.
I said nothing about this point because what does it prove?
What does it prove? What do you think it proves?
Who is the root of David if not God?
Who do you say is the Root of David if not God and what could that phrase possibly mean in regards to a person that didn't exist until a thousand years after David died?!
I believe Jesus is the Root of David, this doesn't prove he's the trinity, the one God or the A&O.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Of course it proves exactly that or else the phrase has no meaning whatsoever.
Since it neither adds nor takes away from my point I did not speak about it. If you somehow think it bolsters your position however, please let me know how it does and I will give a reply. Has it got to do with Jesus saying "I Jesus" in Rev 22:16 when viewing the preceding verses? If so explain what your point is.
All you have to do is read it. You don't need one single syllable more than what I quoted to fully understand what is being said.
Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Jesus claims to be both that which came before and that which came after, BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David.
It's as perfectly crystal clear as it can possibly be to anyone who can read.
Asserting something is true doesn't make it true my friend.
Wait wait! Let me get this straight...
You're tell me that if I simple deny that something is true it doesn't do anything to make it true!
Get outa here! Really?!
Just because you assert "There isn't any doubt that it's Jesus doing the talking in these letters to the seven churches! No doubt whatsoever" doesn't make it true, the bible gives a different viewpoint when discussing who was doing the talking in Revelation (see below).
I quoted the relevant passages. Who else in the bible was raised from the dead besides Jesus?
Lazarus? Are you suggesting that these letters to the seven churches were dictated by Lazarus? Maybe it was Tabitha! Peter raised Tabitha from the dead in Acts 9, maybe it was her!
In all, I think there are ten different instances where a person or group of people were raised from the dead in the bible, including Jesus Christ. If it wasn't Jesus dictating those letters to John then who was it?
That's another question I'll insist on getting a direct answer to before this goes any further. We'll see who answers questions around here and who doesn't.
"...A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near..." (Revelation 1:1-20)
Who gave Jesus the revelation? God the Father! Therefore it is God speaking through Jesus who speaks through an Angel to John, this is literally what the text says, these are NOT my words but literally the bibles. Thus, for you to claim "Jesus doing the talking in these letters to the seven churches!" goes contrary to the Bible, since it is God talking through Jesus, through an Angel, through John, to us.
Except that it wasn't God the Father that was dead and is now alive forevermore. Good greif you're stupid. Why am I wasting this much time with you? Did you even read my post or the passages that I quoted?
You use Rev 1:11 which is foolish, to try and make a point on a debated verse is truly unwise. Virtually all of the oldest manuscripts do not contain what is stated in Rev 1:11 (mention of A&O and F&L combined), therefore to use it in a debate is pointless and bad form (let me guess, you're a KJ advocate).
Quite the contrary. I'm the opposite of a King James Only dingbat conspiracy theorist.
Evidenced by the fact that I did not quote the King James Bible.
And whether you like it or not, Revelation 1:11 says what it says. I didn't write it and you can't prove that the phrase, which is used repeatedly throughout the chapter doesn't belong in verse 11. Someone with a one heck of a lot more knowledge, skill and expertise than either of us translated a bible into English that stood as the standard for the English language itself for centuries, used manuscripts that included “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,".
Not only that, but it seems clear enough to me that it's just a repeat of what was already quoted in verse 8.
Finally, I don't even need verse 11! My argument doesn't rest solely on that one verse! I have the entire chapter 1 and verses throughout the book of Revelation to make this point not to mention the several passages in and indeed the entire theme of the Gospel of John!
Since Rev 1:4,5 clearly has Jesus as separate from the "one who is, who was, and who is coming" it is clear Rev 1:11 and the rendition you gave is spurious as it contradicts Jesus separation from the A&O, a fact you have not acknowledged yet. No, the first thing Jesus says is not "I am the A&O", the angel is speaking in v7 and states "Look! He [Jesus] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.", there is an end of a sentence as can be seen by the "Amen" in the end of v7, v8 then says "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty”. Nowhere in v8 does it state Jesus is speaking, nor does v7 identify who is speaking in v8 all we know is that its a new speaker. Verse 4&5 DOES shed light on who is speaking and it rules out Jesus as it has "the one who, who was, and who is coming" as being a separate person FROM Jesus. UNLESS you can explain this conundrum Jesus cannot be the one speaking in v8, it doesn't matter how many spurious verses you show it still won't get you out of this contradiction, deal with the contradiction. Remember, further trying to prove Jesus is the A&O DOES NOT solve the contradiction.
Saying it doesn't make it so. I have quoted the passages that directly contradict your doctrine.
Again, this ridiculous argument smacks its face against what the Trinity doctrine teaches, which you seem not to even understand.
Revelation 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
The Apostle John just keep clubbing you over the head! (I bet you don't even see the point here.)
Indeed, that John 5 passage is another one where Jesus is claiming equality with the Father. The only ones who don't see it are the ones trying not to see it because of their pet doctrines.
Clete