Jesus is God !
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oatmeal
Well-known member
How did John see all the events recorded in the Book of Revelation?
With his physical eyes or by spiritual revelation?
Did Paul see a man of Macedonia with his physical eyes or in a vision? Acts 16:9
Acts 9:6-17 Was this seen by Peter with his biological/physical eyes or in a vision?
oatmeal
Well-known member
If you had thought your conclusions through in light of other scriptures of similar content,
you would not have to be back pedaling right now.
My questions and your lack of ability to answer them is all the reply you are going to get for now
beloved57
Well-known member
Rabbit trail. You quoted some of my posts, then evaded the points you quoted. Please address them.
beloved57
Well-known member
Was The Lord Jesus Christ under Personal Responsibility to render obedience to the Law of God ? For scripture says that He was made of a woman and under the law Gal 4:4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
He was to obey it Heb 10:5-9
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Phil 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
No, Jesus Christ was not under any personal obligation to obey the Law for Himself, but yes He was under Covenantal Obligation to the Father to obey the whole Law in the place of others, God's Elect.
But to obey the Law in the place and stead of others, He himself would have to be free from such obedience, and if He had not been God in His Divine Nature, then His Own obedience , God would have demanded for Himself personally and not for thousands upon thousands of others , for He would be a creature like them and owe His own Obedience. As God, and yet Man, He was not under Personal obligation to anyone, because God has no one over Him to be accountable to, but as Man He subjected Himself to Obedience to God, a Very Unique Person indeed.
Jesus was claiming the status of God here by the way Matt 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
When did it begin ? Gen 2:1-4
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
All things were made by Him John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Technically, He was not under any obedience to the Sabbath Day, He made it for man !
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
He was to obey it Heb 10:5-9
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Phil 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
No, Jesus Christ was not under any personal obligation to obey the Law for Himself, but yes He was under Covenantal Obligation to the Father to obey the whole Law in the place of others, God's Elect.
But to obey the Law in the place and stead of others, He himself would have to be free from such obedience, and if He had not been God in His Divine Nature, then His Own obedience , God would have demanded for Himself personally and not for thousands upon thousands of others , for He would be a creature like them and owe His own Obedience. As God, and yet Man, He was not under Personal obligation to anyone, because God has no one over Him to be accountable to, but as Man He subjected Himself to Obedience to God, a Very Unique Person indeed.
Jesus was claiming the status of God here by the way Matt 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
When did it begin ? Gen 2:1-4
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
All things were made by Him John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Technically, He was not under any obedience to the Sabbath Day, He made it for man !
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
We are not headed for hell, because God Himself forgives our sins if we repent.
No JC needed for that one.
And not the "entire Bible" would be a lie, only the NT.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
beloved57
Well-known member
Christ's Deity as Jehovah !
Christ's Deity as Jehovah ! Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jesus Christ is God by this verse; Peter means by this calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, and we know this by Acts 2:36
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name[Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
And Peter here in Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
He is here applying an OT Prophecy out of Joel found here Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
And the Name Lord here is Yahweh/ Jehovah ! Yet in Acts 2:21 He points to the Divine Being being called upon to be saved as The Lord Jesus Christ, so to deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is also Jehovah The LORD Yahweh, is to be in denial of the scripture inspiration as well as the Apostle's Doctrine.
Christ's Deity as Jehovah ! Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Jesus Christ is God by this verse; Peter means by this calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, and we know this by Acts 2:36
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name[Jesus Christ] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
And Peter here in Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
He is here applying an OT Prophecy out of Joel found here Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.
And the Name Lord here is Yahweh/ Jehovah ! Yet in Acts 2:21 He points to the Divine Being being called upon to be saved as The Lord Jesus Christ, so to deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is also Jehovah The LORD Yahweh, is to be in denial of the scripture inspiration as well as the Apostle's Doctrine.
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freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Points to consider......
Points to consider......
Already addressed here.
I'm sure Elia can answer this, but note that Orthodox Jews reject the 'blood-atonement' doctrine via Jesus in the NT, and do not need any 'blood sacrifices' while there is no 'active temple' existing that has been officially sanctioned with an active priesthood, etc. And then, it is the blood of animals that does any 'atoning', and NEVER a man's blood. Currently Jews have full access to 'God' via 'repentance', 'prayer' and 'good works' since the Torah provides all that is needed for them, for the offerings 'God' accepts are a humble heart and a contrite spirit. 'Repentance' is wholly sufficient in one re-turning to 'God', since that is all that is required (beyond the religious ritual and customs).
pj
Points to consider......
Already addressed here.
I'm sure Elia can answer this, but note that Orthodox Jews reject the 'blood-atonement' doctrine via Jesus in the NT, and do not need any 'blood sacrifices' while there is no 'active temple' existing that has been officially sanctioned with an active priesthood, etc. And then, it is the blood of animals that does any 'atoning', and NEVER a man's blood. Currently Jews have full access to 'God' via 'repentance', 'prayer' and 'good works' since the Torah provides all that is needed for them, for the offerings 'God' accepts are a humble heart and a contrite spirit. 'Repentance' is wholly sufficient in one re-turning to 'God', since that is all that is required (beyond the religious ritual and customs).
pj
So are you saying the people of Jacob never really needed a priesthood?
He did. You don't know how to read. Thomas is right and you are wrong.
keypurr
Well-known member
I respectfully disagree, there is no verse in this post that show Jesus Christ as God. There is a difference between God and Lord. Jesus was made Lord by God, your own posted verse. (Acts 2:36)
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
mediums.............
mediums.............
I was addressing AFT's assumption that only the blood of Jesus can provide an atonement for sin, and that the verse in Lev. somehow proves that Jesus blood makes an atonement for sin, when in Orthodox Jewish law and teaching no man's blood can make an atonement for sin, neither is their Messiah an incarnation of 'God' or a divine 'god-man'. There are also offerings besides blood that can make an atonement for sin in Jewish tradition. Blood sacrifice was not and is not the only means for 'atonement' in the OT, when grain offerings, flour, money, prayer, repentance, and doing right are also acceptable,...in fact the latter 2 are the effectual means of returning to 'God' since if there is no true repentance or return to righteousness.....all the religious rituals or sacrifices avail nothing, until a soul gets truly 'right' with 'God' and lives according to His laws or 'principles'. This is why such offerings where such a 'stench' in the nostrils of 'God',...since those bringing them continued on in their sinful ways, with no real change (repentance). See Isaiah.
A 'god' who demands blood is not much of a deity on many levels, since only the most primitive of tribes held to such concepts of blood sacrifice and other fetishes, until a more enlightened revelation and elevation of spiritual intelligence dawned....which it already has on our planet.
A priesthood is only 'needed' where a priestly work or mediation is assumed to somehow benefit the people or connect them with 'God'. For those who believe, feel or intuit that 'God' is already always present to them, a priesthood is not needed, although it may serve in a conventional/symbolic sense, only to remind them of the omnipresence of Spirit.
pj
mediums.............
I was addressing AFT's assumption that only the blood of Jesus can provide an atonement for sin, and that the verse in Lev. somehow proves that Jesus blood makes an atonement for sin, when in Orthodox Jewish law and teaching no man's blood can make an atonement for sin, neither is their Messiah an incarnation of 'God' or a divine 'god-man'. There are also offerings besides blood that can make an atonement for sin in Jewish tradition. Blood sacrifice was not and is not the only means for 'atonement' in the OT, when grain offerings, flour, money, prayer, repentance, and doing right are also acceptable,...in fact the latter 2 are the effectual means of returning to 'God' since if there is no true repentance or return to righteousness.....all the religious rituals or sacrifices avail nothing, until a soul gets truly 'right' with 'God' and lives according to His laws or 'principles'. This is why such offerings where such a 'stench' in the nostrils of 'God',...since those bringing them continued on in their sinful ways, with no real change (repentance). See Isaiah.
A 'god' who demands blood is not much of a deity on many levels, since only the most primitive of tribes held to such concepts of blood sacrifice and other fetishes, until a more enlightened revelation and elevation of spiritual intelligence dawned....which it already has on our planet.
A priesthood is only 'needed' where a priestly work or mediation is assumed to somehow benefit the people or connect them with 'God'. For those who believe, feel or intuit that 'God' is already always present to them, a priesthood is not needed, although it may serve in a conventional/symbolic sense, only to remind them of the omnipresence of Spirit.
pj
AFT's question was not based on an assumption, it was based on a NT statement of fact. I realize Jews reject the validity of the NT, but that is not AFT's fault.
I know nothing about Orthodox Jewish law which is not mentioned in the Tanakh. I'm guessing it must be Rabbinic law based on the doctrine of men.
However, in the Mosaic law, sin estranged a person from God and the sinner was subject to trial. If a sinner was found guilty he or she was required to abide by the court's decision, which could even include death. There was the presumption of innocence that had to be overcome by the testimony of no less than two witnesses.
So Orthodox Jewish law is evidently in no way related to God's law.
Since you say all a sinner has to do is say they are sorry, you must believe Jesus died in vain.
She can't help that you are blind and stupid.
beloved57
Well-known member
Jesus is God also and why !
For He must be both God and man in One Glorious Being, for was He not a Man, then His finished work of obedience to the Law and Justice of God could not be imputed to men, and if He were not God, His Finished work could not be worthy of God and satisy the infinite Justice of an infinite Being such as God is. God in the person of His Son came into this world[as a Man] to do what it took to save sinners from His Infinite Justice, for sinners He Loved Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
To deny this of God, is to Limit God. Yes to say God could not have become a Man to accomplish His Redemptive Purpose, and Yet remain God, is to Limit His Ability and Power, as it is written Mk 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
For He must be both God and man in One Glorious Being, for was He not a Man, then His finished work of obedience to the Law and Justice of God could not be imputed to men, and if He were not God, His Finished work could not be worthy of God and satisy the infinite Justice of an infinite Being such as God is. God in the person of His Son came into this world[as a Man] to do what it took to save sinners from His Infinite Justice, for sinners He Loved Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
To deny this of God, is to Limit God. Yes to say God could not have become a Man to accomplish His Redemptive Purpose, and Yet remain God, is to Limit His Ability and Power, as it is written Mk 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
keypurr
Well-known member
Then enlighten me as to how these verses show that Jesus is God.
If Jesus is God, WHO made him Lord of all?
He would have been Lord of all.
Sorry beloved, I know your heart is in the right place but you need to get out of the church box to see truth.