Jesus is God !

[keypurr]

:doh:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Please read your bible and stop making things up!

Jesus was not in Paradise that day.

Touch me not for I have not yet assended to my father.

I suggest you read yours and find out where Paradise is.

Here are my views for your consideration.

Paradise, where is it?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?

It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Translators are human too.


Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Peace

 

[glorydaz]

Does it not say that Jesus Christ died?
You say he is the God who died.

In a way, I agree. But I do not see him as THE only true God.
My point being, Jesus has a God, yet he is a god, a lesser god.
A created god who could die.

Hey, that seems to match scripture. John 1, he was with god and he was a god.

Oh yes. That little "a" that the JW's have sneaked into their Bible. I really do thank those JW's for showing me that verse so many years ago. I was not yet saved when they caught my interest with some end times prophecy. But when they read out of John 1:1, saying "A GOD" a big huge CLANG went off....stopping me dead in my tracks. I knew something was wrong. So I went in my house and looked it up in a regular old King James.......uh oh, there was no "A" there.

You read a perverted Bible, Keypurr. No wonder you can't find the Truth. Cast it away and begin anew.

 

[Lon]

Jesus was not in Paradise that day.

:doh: "'today" you will be with me in Paradise.' :doh:

Paradise, where is it?

Certainly heaven is a paradise, but that isn't what this verse is refering to.

Read Angel's good post one page back and the other companion post just below this one. Paradise was a place where those who believed were held. Now, imho, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

 

[Angel4Truth]

Jesus was not in Paradise that day.

Touch me not for I have not yet assended to my father.

I suggest you read yours and find out where Paradise is.

Here are my views for your consideration.

Paradise, where is it?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?

It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Translators are human too.


Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Peace

Paradise in revelation there is not the same place as before Christ.

Pre Christ paradise was the portion of Abraham's bosom where the righteous were, separated by a wide gulf, where those in hades were.

You can see the rich man calling from his side to the other in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:21-26

Christ emptied paradise upon ascending:

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”[a]

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

The souls in prison Christ preached to, were those in Abraham's Bosom - part paradise and part Hades.

 

[keypurr]

Oh yes. That little "a" that the JW's have sneaked into their Bible. I really do thank those JW's for showing me that verse so many years ago. I was not yet saved when they caught my interest with some end times prophecy. But when they read out of John 1:1, saying "A GOD" a big huge CLANG went off....stopping me dead in my tracks. I knew something was wrong. So I went in my house and looked it up in a regular old King James.......uh oh, there was no "A" there.

You read a perverted Bible, Keypurr. No wonder you can't find the Truth. Cast it away and begin anew.

Oh dear, you have exposed me again. If I can find my JW Bibles I will toss it out the window. The reason why I never use it is because its about 40 yeaqrs old, the type is small and the pages are yellow. Plus, its not on my e-sword.

I guess your wondering why I use the term "a" god. Consider this verse:
Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Does this say that Jesus is the son of the MOST HIGH GOD?
That implies other gods, who are they?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So I guess Jesus Christ is not the TRUE God, but he is a god.

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus was not in Paradise that day.

Touch me not for I have not yet assended to my father.

I suggest you read yours and find out where Paradise is.

Here are my views for your consideration.

Paradise, where is it?

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

This brings up a question as to where is Paradise.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such a one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How could Jesus be in Paradise the day he died if he had not yet assended to his Father on Sunday?

It appears that the comma was inserted in the wrong place.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Translators are human too.


Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Peace

Bunk on your comma theory. :thumb:

If you spent more time in the Word instead of saying Jesus has a God, you would know that Jesus is God. God came in the flesh and dwelt among us. His body went to the grave, but He took the thief with Him to Paradise....where Abraham and David waited until Christ's resurrection. His resurrected body had not yet assended....He spent all that time preparing the Apostles for the coming day of Pentecost. Was He dead then, too?

 

[keypurr]

Paradise in revelation there is not the same place as before Christ.

Pre Christ paradise was the portion of Abraham's bosom where the righteous were, separated by a wide gulf, where those in hades were.

You can see the rich man calling from his side to the other in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:21-26

Christ emptied paradise upon ascending:

Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”[a]

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

The souls in prison Christ preached to, were those in Abraham's Bosom - part paradise and part Hades.

I disagree Angel, a parable is not reality.

Paradise is in heaven, not on earth. A misplaced comma proves that.

 

[keypurr]

Bunk on your comma theory. :thumb:

If you spent more time in the Word instead of saying Jesus has a God, you would know that Jesus is God. God came in the flesh and dwelt among us. His body went to the grave, but He took the thief with Him to Paradise....where Abraham and David waited until Christ's resurrection. His resurrected body had not yet assended....He spent all that time preparing the Apostles for the coming day of Pentecost. Was He dead then, too?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice the word "and".

 

[Angel4Truth]

I disagree Angel, a parable is not reality.

Paradise is in heaven, not on earth. A misplaced comma proves that.

Paradise is in heaven now, it was not before Christ took it there. You are the one having to call Christ a liar about the thief and Himself being there that day.

 

[glorydaz]

Oh dear, you have exposed me again. If I can find my JW Bibles I will toss it out the window. The reason why I never use it is because its about 40 yeaqrs old, the type is small and the pages are yellow. Plus, its not on my e-sword.

I guess your wondering why I use the term "a" god. Consider this verse:
Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

Does this say that Jesus is the son of the MOST HIGH GOD?
That implies other gods, who are they?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So I guess Jesus Christ is not the TRUE God, but he is a god.

Only a blind man has to GUESS at the color of the sky.


It's a shame you have never seen the Glory of God revealed in the face of Jesus Christ. Then you could say with Thomas, "My LORD and my GOD."

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[freelight]

serious inquiries.......

serious inquiries.......

~*~*~

The OP was not convincing to me to somehow prove 'Jesus is God' but points to the opposite, since he denied the title of 'good master' to show the young man that only God was good, or the source and substance of divine goodness, and not himself, in his human form. Jesus was referring to the Universal Father of all, who is an infinite, eternal, omnipresent Spirit-Presence. If anything, this and other passages show Jesus is a distinct personality, a 'Son' of God and not God himself. This is of course from a logical, dualistic, relational perspective, and rightly within the Judaic understanding of 'God' which Jesus would have been well versed in being a Rabbi.


~*~*~

Now lets address directly the title of the thread and its 'claim' or 'assumption'....that 'Jesus is God'. A fundamental question -

Can you prove that Jesus is God...apart from such conclusion being a 'religious belief, 'assumption', 'prefigured theological position' or the like?

Apart from religious props, scriptures, accepted tradition, creeds, beliefs, assumptions, etc....can you prove it?

"Jesus is God!" you say. That doesnt impress a good number of people, neither does the claim necessarily hold or mean anything to them. So? You'll notice its only a 'belief' among those within certain sectors of Christianity who have accepted it as their 'doctrine', 'dogma' 'creed' and 'theology'. No one else makes the claim. Why would they?

Is the claim necessary to anyone else besides the claimant?



pj

 

[Angel4Truth]

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice the word "and".

3.
|3778| this
|1161| And
|2076| is
|0166| everlasting
|2222| life--
|2443| that
|1097| they may know
|4571| You
|9999| {are}
|3588| the
|3441| only
|0228| true
|2316| God,
|2532| and
|9999| {the one}
|3739| whom
|0649| You sent--
|2424| Jesus
|5547| Christ.

nope, not misplaced

 

[glorydaz]

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice the word "and".

Notice the word "and"....

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isaiah 60:16
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Lest there be any doubt.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

 

[glorydaz]

~*~*~

The OP was not convincing to me to somehow prove 'Jesus is God' but points to the opposite, since he denied the title of 'good master' to show the young man that only God was good, or the source and substance of divine goodness, and not himself, in his human form. Jesus was referring to the Universal Father of all, who is an infinite, eternal, omnipresent Spirit-Presence. If anything, this and other passages show Jesus is a distinct personality, a 'Son' of God and not God himself. This is of course from a logical, dualistic, relational perspective, and rightly within the Judaic understanding of 'God' which Jesus would have been well versed in being a Rabbi.


~*~*~

Now lets address directly the title of the thread and its 'claim' or 'assumption'....that 'Jesus is God'. A fundamental question -

Can you prove that Jesus is God...apart from such conclusion being a 'religious belief, 'assumption', 'prefigured theological position' or the like?

Apart from religious props, scriptures, accepted tradition, creeds, beliefs, assumptions, etc....can you prove it?

"Jesus is God!" you say. That doesnt impressive a good number of people, neither does the claim necessarily hold or mean anything to them. So? You'll notice its only a 'belief' among those within certain sectors of Christianity who have accepted it as their 'doctrine', 'dogma' 'creed' and 'theology'. No one else makes the claim. Why would they?

Is the claim necessary to anyone else besides the claimant?

pj

Not necessary at all....unless you want to have eternal life.

If you don't care about whether you live or die, then you can just continue on your merry way...

 

[glorydaz]

:doh: "'today" you will be with me in Paradise.' :doh:

Certainly heaven is a paradise, but that isn't what this verse is refering to.

Read Angel's good post one page back and the other companion post just below this one. Paradise was a place where those who believed were held. Now, imho, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Right, we don't have to wait for Christ is risen. :thumb:

 

[freelight]

the fact of the matter.....

the fact of the matter.....

Not necessary at all....unless you want to have eternal life.

If you don't care about whether you live or die, then you can just continue on your merry way...

Can you prove it is necessary to believe the claim that 'Jesus is God' in order to have eternal life?

The validity of the questions remain. See the primary one which was "can you prove Jesus is God beyond such being a religious belief or assumption?" You didnt answer that.

I fully addressed the OP's presentation-attempt at one of these 'proofs' and found it wanting. There are just as many if not more verses in the Bible supporting Unitarianism as there is Trinitarianism.

To an outsider, the claim that 'Jesus is God' is just a religious belief, doctrine, assumption, opinion, etc. It appears to have no value outside of the belief-system or religious-culture/tradition that assumes it.


pj

 

[Pneuma]

Don't be afraid to directly post scripture which you feel supports your uni-position.

So which is it apple, do you know the scriptures as you proclaim or not.

If I have to directly post the scripture in order for you to see it is scripture then it shows me your lack of knoweldge of scripture.

 

[Pneuma]

Spirits don't die. The scripture says that Samuel "died" and was "buried." Yet Samuel was called up from sheol by the medium of Endor and he conversed with Saul. If Samuel's spirit was dead then the medium had the power to give life which cannot be.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So did Adam DIE in the days he ate from the tree or not?

 

[Pneuma]

Not necessary at all....unless you want to have eternal life.

If you don't care about whether you live or die, then you can just continue on your merry way...

There is that idiotic statement again.

People are always saying this stupidity, if you don't go to my church you cannot be saved. My church is the true church. if you don't believe according to my church your not a christian.

What a load of crap, did you guys learn nothing from Paul, is Christ divided? Did Jesus not say He had other followers who where NOT of the fold of His appostles?

Come on guys open your eyes, instead of bringing the body of Christ together you divided it, tis no wonder the body of Christ has not the power of the HEAD.

The head CANNOT say to the body I have no need of you, yet that is in effect what you do when you reject others who are followers of Christ and are not of your fold.

 

[Pneuma]

Can you prove it is necessary to believe the claim that 'Jesus is God' in order to have eternal life?

The validity of the questions remain. See the primary one which was "can you prove Jesus is God beyond such being a religious belief or assumption?" You didnt answer that.

I fully addressed the OP's presentation-attempt at one of these 'proofs' and found it wanting. There are just as many if not more verses in the Bible supporting Unitarianism as there is Trinitarianism.

To an outsider, the claim that 'Jesus is God' is just a religious belief, doctrine, assumption, opinion, etc. It appears to have no value outside of the belief-system or religious-culture/tradition that assumes it.


pj

I already asked that question. I got no response either