keypurr
Well-known member
Your words
Jesus is God !
- Thread starter beloved57
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Your words
keypurr
Well-known member
Ignatius is not in the NT last time I looked.
I understand there were many fraudulent books in the early years,
The verses posted do not match the NT.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Not my words...you said you can know people's thoughts. There is only one I have ever heard of that can do that. And fortunately my friend it isn't you.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Drbrumley says the sky is blue...keypurr would say no, it's really black.
keypurr
Well-known member
The epistles ascribed to Ignatius have given rise to more controversy than any other documents connected with the primitive Church. As is evident to every reader on the very first glance at these writings, they contain numerous statements which bear on points of ecclesiastical order that have long divided the Christian world; and a strong temptation has thus been felt to allow some amount of prepossession to enter into the discussion of their authenticity or spuriousness.
From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 1
From Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 1
keypurr
Well-known member
I know SOME of their thoughts Doc, as I WAS a TRIN for many years.
keypurr
Well-known member
I more likely would say you need glasses.
Apple7
New member
Nope.
και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
Kai tō angelō tēs en laodikeia ekklēsias grapson tade legei o amēn o martus o pistos kai o alēthinos ē archē tēs ktiseōs tou theou
Rev 3.14 And to the angel in the Laodicea assembly, write: This says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the origin, the creation, the God:
pops...you seem to want to diminish Jesus’ deity by interpreting English translations to mean that He was created.
First, in the above passage, Jesus is the one being directly quoted (tade legei) and His epithets are listed appropriately. Jesus is not applying these epithets to anyone else – as they are applied solely to Him, alone – same as He applies them to Himself all through Revelation chapters 2 & 3.
και τω αγγελω της εν λαοδικεια εκκλησιας γραψον ταδε λεγει ο αμην ο μαρτυς ο πιστος και [ο] αληθινος η αρχη της κτισεως του θεου
In seven out of seven sequential verses, the formula ‘tade legei’ (demonstrative accusative; indicative verb) precedes the nominative singular masculine article ‘o’.
This translates into what is being stated by the epithets listed after the formula.
This means that listed epithets belong to Jesus – they do not represent separate entities.
The trend in all of these epithets points to Jesus’ deity not to Him being created.
Further, each address to the assemblies initiates with Jesus’ words, and then concludes with stating that the Spirit is the one who has just addressed them – thus, confirming the Trinity.
Secondly, this verse mandates that Jesus was never created and that He is the singular, nominative archē (i.e. the origin; the active cause), the singular genitive creation, and the singular genitive God.
Jesus is God.
All things came into being through Jesus.
Thirdly, confirming that Jesus is the creator and not the creation, we have the following…
ο θεος αβρααμ και ισαακ και ιακωβ ο θεος των πατερων ημων εδοξασεν τον παιδα αυτου ιησουν ον υμεις μεν παρεδωκατε και ηρνησασθε κατα προσωπον πιλατου κριναντος εκεινου απολυειν υμεις δε τον αγιον και δικαιον ηρνησασθε και ητησασθε ανδρα φονεα χαρισθηναι υμιν τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης απεκτεινατε ον ο θεος ηγειρεν εκ νεκρων ου ημεις μαρτυρες εσμεν
ho theos abraam kai isaak kai iakōb ho theos tōn paterōn ēmōn edoxasen ton paida autou iēsoun on umeis men paredōkate kai ērnēsasthe kata prosōpon pilatou krinantos ekeinou apoluein umeis de ton agion kai dikaion ērnēsasthe kai ētēsasthe andra phonea charisthēnai umin ton de archēgon tēs zōēs apekteinate on ho theos ēgeiren ek nekrōn ou ēmeis martures esmen
The "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob," "the God of our fathers," glorified the Son of Him, Jesus, whom you delivered up, and denied Him in the presence of Pilate, that one having decided to set Him free. But you denied the Holy and Just One, and asked for a man, a murderer, to be granted to you. And the Originator of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses. (Act 3.13 -15)
Here we have Peter declaring to the Jews that they rejected and killed the ‘Originator of Life’(de archēgon tēs zōēs), Jesus.
Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).
drbrumley
Well-known member
The following seven letters preserved under the name of Ignatius are generally considered authentic as they were mentioned by the historian Eusebius in the first half of the fourth century.
Seven authentic letters:
The Letter to the Ephesians,
The Letter to the Magnesians,
The Letter to the Trallians,
The Letter to the Romans,
The Letter to the Philadelphians,
The Letter to the Smyrnaeans,
The Letter to Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna.
Epistles attributed to Saint Ignatius but of spurious origin (their author is often called Pseudo-Ignatius in English) include:
Epistle to the Tarsians;
Epistle to the Antiochians;
Epistle to Hero, a Deacon of Antioch;
Epistle to the Philippians;
The Epistle of Maria the Proselyte to Ignatius;
Epistle to Mary at Neapolis, Zarbus;
First Epistle to St. John;
Second Epistle to St. John;
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Virgin Mary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch
Apple7
New member
Being 'born' does NOT mean, being 'created', pops.
Learn to use the lexical tools at your disposal...
Again...nope.
Look at the lexical definitions for the verbs surrounding Jesus incarnation.
None of them indicate that he was created.
Apple7
New member
zzzzzzzzzz.....and?
Show us the Greek verbs surrounding Jesus' incarnation, and then demonstrate to us that they suggest that He was 'created'.
Good luck, pops...:rotfl:
keypurr
Well-known member
Wrong Doc, John 17:3 disputes all the stuff you just posted. I believe him, sorry.
I have proven to this site many times that Christ is a creation. He is a creature,,
Colossians 1:15
(Bishops) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first borne of all creatures.
(ESV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(Geneva) Who is the image of the inuisible God, the first begotten of euery creature.
(GNB) Christ is the visible likeness of the invisible God. He is the first-born Son, superior to all created things.
(ISV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
(Murdock) who is the likeness of the invisible God, and the first-born of all creatures:
(NAS77) And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.
(NASB) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(NIrV) Christ is the exact likeness of God, who can't be seen. He is first, and he is over all of creation.
(NIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(YLT) who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
(NIV) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NRSV) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(NRSVA) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
(YLT) who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
HE IS A CREATURE/CREATION,
NAME ANY IMAGE THAT IS NOT CREATED, IF YOU CAN.
Your argument is destroyed in scripture Doc.
drbrumley
Well-known member
drbrumley
Well-known member
but since you threw my name out there, let me respond.
(KJV) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Who was His mother?
Apple7
New member
Pops is loosing his marbles...
keypurr
Well-known member
yes it does, we are all creatures. Only YHWH is not created. Use you mind friend not someone elses.
keypurr
Well-known member
At least I got them to lose.
keypurr
Well-known member
Which one, JESUS OR THE LOGOS?
JESUS MOTHER WAS MARY
LOGOS HAS NO MOTHER
GOD was alone until he created his spirit son, the logos.
keypurr
Well-known member
Sorry friend.
drbrumley
Well-known member
You can't have it both ways Key.
you cite Colossians 1:15. That verse is about who? JESUS!!!!!
Here's where your theory falls apart. There is multitudes of evidence in the scriptures that testify of God having a Son. We agree. What we don't agree is the other son. (the logos). You in no uncertain terms said this is His son. God has two sons. According to YOU!!!!! And that is blasmephy,