Jesus is God vs. Jesus is YHVH

[Dartman]

Singular, and yet plural?

Of course.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (logos plural): and the word (logos singular) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Since Jesus is called The Word..

He's not.

... then you just admitted that the OT prophets spoke with Jesus!

You can claim anything .... if you don't care about truth.
Your pretense is just wishful thinking.

How else could Jesus have existed in the OT?

As a promise. That's why Abraham saw Christ's future "day".

All you did with your NT quotes(absolutely ZERO OT quotes, surprise!) is search the English term,'Word', and then run with it.

Nope, I searched on the phrase "the word of God". And I sense you are a little embarrassed that I so easily proved that "the word of God" is ALWAYS talking about something spoken, or written.
Yes, even And having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. Rev 19.13
This is a NAME Jesus WILL HAVE WHEN HE CONQUERS THE PLANET....

Specifically because he so PERFECTLY fulfilled his God's words.

Little do you know (or care, apparently) that more than one Greek term is rendered 'Word' in your passages.

Are you just now figuring out that rhema and logos are interchangeable???


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words (reemata - plural), hath one that judgeth him: the word (logos singular) that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Regardless, you just proved my point.

You can claim anything .... if you don't care about truth.
Your pretense is just wishful thinking.

According to you, God's WORDS are clothed in a garment, dipped in blood, and have a personal pronoun 'His' as a name!

Nope.

According to me a man, who is given the NAME "the word of God", is clothed in a bloody garment.
The reason Jesus is called that name is, he fulfills his God's word perfectly.

 

[Dartman]

In John 1:1 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

and in Rev 1:8.."I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Jesus Christ

Neither passage is discussing Christ.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Neither passage is discussing Christ.

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, [JESUS]“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”[/JESUS] - John 8:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:12&version=NKJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-5&version=NKJV

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. - 1 John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John1:1-4&version=NKJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy3:16&version=NKJV

They ARE discussing Christ, who is God with us.

 

[Dartman]

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, [JESUS]“I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”[/JESUS] - John 8:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John8:12&version=NKJV

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. - John 1:1-5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:1-5&version=NKJV

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. - 1 John 1:1-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John1:1-4&version=NKJV

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy3:16&version=NKJV

They ARE discussing Christ, who is God with us.

LOL .... you quote a poor translation of 1 Tim 3:16, and you INSERT Jesus into a text about his God.

You are doing a wonderful job of showing just how desperately you wish for a text that actually STATED your theory.

I can save you a lot of searching .... there isn't any.

Jesus is "life", and Jesus is "light" ... because he obeyed his God perfectly, so his God GAVE him power over life, and his God shines THROUGH Jesus. The ULTIMATE source of life and light is Christ's God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

LOL .... you quote a poor translation of 1 Tim 3:16, and you INSERT Jesus into a text about his God.

Considering that all I did was quote from the NKJV, you need to show where the translation is wrong, otherwise it's just poisoning the well.

I could post the Wescott-Hort, and it would say practically the same thing. Isn't the Wescott-Hort something you would recognize?

NKJV:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy3:16&version=NKJV

WH:
και ομολογουμενως μεγα εστιν το της ευσεβειας μυστηριον ος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι εδικαιωθη εν πνευματι ωφθη αγγελοις εκηρυχθη εν εθνεσιν επιστευθη εν κοσμω ανελημφθη εν δοξη - ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ΠΡΟΣΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝΑ΄3:16&version=WHNU

{Wescott-Hort} - first line
{transliteration} - second line
{EN translation} - third line

και ομολογουμενως μεγα εστιν το της
kai homologoumenos mega estin to tes
[and] [confessedly] [great] [is] [the] [-]

ευσεβειας μυστηριον ος εφανερωθη
eusebeias musterion os ephanerothe
[of godliness] [mystery] [(He) who] [was revealed]

εν σαρκι εδικαιωθη εν πνευματι
en sarki edikaiothe en pneumati
[in] [(the) flesh] [was justified] [in] [(the) Spirit]

ωφθη αγγελοις εκηρυχθη εν
ophthe aggelois ekeruchthe en
[was seen] [by angels] [was proclaimed] [among]

εθνεσιν επιστευθη εν κοσμω
ethnesin episteuthe en kosmo
[(the) nations] [was preached] [in] [(the) world]

ανελημφθη εν δοξη
anelemphthe en doxe
[was taken up] [in] [glory]

You are doing a wonderful job of showing just how desperately you wish for a text that actually STATED your theory.

Address the verses I quoted, please, instead of throwing out ad hominems.

I'm providing you with verses that, when taken as a whole (by getting the big picture), show Christ to be God.

And all you're doing is squirming, trying to avoid addressing them.

I can save you a lot of searching .... there isn't any.

Jesus is "life", and Jesus is "light" ... because he obeyed his God perfectly, so his God GAVE him power over life, and his God shines THROUGH Jesus. The ULTIMATE source of life and light is Christ's God.

This doesn't address the verses which I quoted above.

 

[Apple7]

Nope, I searched on the phrase "the word of God". And I sense you are a little embarrassed that I so easily proved that "the word of God" is ALWAYS talking about something spoken, or written.
Yes, even And having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. Rev 19.13
This is a NAME Jesus WILL HAVE WHEN HE CONQUERS THE PLANET....

Specifically because he so PERFECTLY fulfilled his God's words.

Incorrect.

The Greek verbage is in the completed action. It is already complete, and therefor already is.

Jesus already defeated Satan at The Cross - there is no FUTURE need to do so.

The Word was seen by the OT prophets.

Deal with the facts.

 

[Dartman]

Considering that all I did was quote from the NKJV, you need to show where the translation is wrong, otherwise it's just poisoning the well.

I could post the Wescott-Hort, and it would say practically the same thing.

ευσεβειας μυστηριον ος εφανερωθη
eusebeias musterion os ephanerothe
[of godliness] [mystery] [(He) who] [was revealed]

No, it isn't "practically the same thing! Notice the (He)... instead of "God"?

I'm providing you with verses that, when taken as a whole (by getting the big picture), show Christ to be God.

No, you are re-re-re- peating the SAME distortions of texts that you have been conditioned to believe actually SUPPORT your theory, but don't.

Jesus is "life", and Jesus is "light" ... because he obeyed his God perfectly, so his God GAVE him power over life, and his God shines THROUGH Jesus. The ULTIMATE source of life and light is Christ's God.

This doesn't address the verses which I quoted above.

Of course it does.

 

[Dartman]

Incorrect.

The Greek verbage is in the completed action. It is already complete, and therefor already is.

This same grammar is used throughout the book of Revelation, indicating that IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VISION, WHICH IS ABOUT THE FUTURE ...these future events will have been fulfilled.

Jesus already defeated Satan at The Cross - there is no FUTURE need to do so.

Not quite. Any more than Jesus "defeated death" when his God raised Jesus to Eternal Life, so there is no more death.... and no more need to defeat death.... "the LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death".

The Word was seen by the OT prophets.

You wish.
The word was HEARD by to OT prophets.

Deal with the facts.

 

[7djengo7]

You missed it.

The Word of God...NOT the written words(plural) of God!

The OT prophets wrote about seeing, and talking with, THE WORD OF GOD.

Who is the Word of God in the NT?


:cigar:

Dartman hath told us:

God's words ARE God, but there is no person/being called "God the word".

It seems that, per Dartman, the proper phrase would be "God the words".

And, referring to John's prologue to his Gospel, Dartman said:

Verses 1-5 are discussing God, and God's words/sayings.
Verse 14 is stating that Jesus fulfilled God's words/sayings as a flesh and blood baby boy.

If "God's words ARE God", then, for God's words to have been made flesh is for God to have been made flesh. (But, since Dartman, by the word 'God', exclusively refers to God the Father, Dartman is implying that God the Father has been made flesh! Oops!)

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

If (as per Dartman) "God's words ARE God", and (as per Dartman) God is "the source of" God's words, then, according to Dartman, God's words are "the source of" God's words: they're "the source of" themselves.

How unmitigatedly stupid it is for Dartman to say that John 1:14 is talking about hoi logoi, when, clearly, John wrote ho logos, which is the antecedent of the SINGULAR autou. Also, notice that, by saying "God's words ARE God", Dartman is admitting plurality in the Godhead.

Remember, Dartman called me a "troll", and has had me on "Ignore" for several weeks, now.

 

[Apple7]

This same grammar is used throughout the book of Revelation, indicating that IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VISION, WHICH IS ABOUT THE FUTURE ...these future events will have been fulfilled.

Incorrect.

The Book of Revelation continuously recycles past, present and future as declared in the opening chapter, as thus...

Write what things you saw (past), and what things are (present), and what things are about to occur after these things (future). (Rev 1.19)

Further, it makes NO time difference for The Word of God, as He has always been.

 

[Apple7]

Not quite. Any more than Jesus "defeated death" when his God raised Jesus to Eternal Life, so there is no more death.... and no more need to defeat death.... "the LAST enemy that shall be destroyed is death".

Incorrect.

The Devil was exposed in disgrace ‘edeigmatisen’ (completed action) and was led as a prisoner in a triumphant procession ‘thriambeusas’ (completed action) Col 2.15

 

[Apple7]

You wish.
The word was HEARD by to OT prophets.

Deal with the facts.

Incorrect.

And behold! The Word of God came to him saying, This one shall not be inheriting. But he that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be your heir. And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be. Gen 15.4 – 5

Observe that the Word of God first talks directly to Abram; then He (The Word of God) brings Abram outside and continues to talk to him, as God, Himself.

The Word, Jesus, visited the OT prophets, same as He did with the NT prophets.

Deal with the facts.



:cigar:

 

[Bladerunner]

LOL .... you quote a poor translation of 1 Tim 3:16, and you INSERT Jesus into a text about his God.

You are doing a wonderful job of showing just how desperately you wish for a text that actually STATED your theory.

I can save you a lot of searching .... there isn't any.

Jesus is "life", and Jesus is "light" ... because he obeyed his God perfectly, so his God GAVE him power over life, and his God shines THROUGH Jesus. The ULTIMATE source of life and light is Christ's God.

Dartman..we have been here before but in Isa 48:16..Jesus is speaking:"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

Blade

 

[Dartman]

Incorrect.

The Devil was exposed in disgrace ‘edeigmatisen’ (completed action) and was led as a prisoner in a triumphant procession ‘thriambeusas’ (completed action) Col 2.15

The "Devil" isn't mentioned in Col 2, instead "principalities" (Plural) and "authorities" (also plural) are what Paul is discussing.

Col 2:15 having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a shew of them openly — having triumphed over them in it.

Satan's future is WELL mapped out;
Rev 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.




Rev 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages. YLT

 

[Dartman]

Incorrect.

And behold! The Word of God came to him saying, This one shall not be inheriting. But he that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be your heir. And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be. Gen 15.4 – 5

Observe that the Word of God first talks directly to Abram; then He (The Word of God) brings Abram outside and continues to talk to him, as God, Himself.

You are so confused.
Jehovah/YHVH God spoke His words to Abraham.
Jehovah then took Abraham outside.
Gen 15:1-6 After these things hath the word of Jehovah been unto Abram in a vision, saying, 'Fear not, Abram, I [am] a shield to thee, thy reward [is] exceeding great.'
2 And Abram saith, 'Lord Jehovah, what dost Thou give to me, and I am going childless? and an acquired son in my house is Demmesek Eliezer.'
3 And Abram saith, 'Lo, to me Thou hast not given seed, and lo, a domestic doth heir me.'
4 And lo, the word of Jehovah [is] unto him, saying, 'This [one] doth not heir thee; but he who cometh out from thy bowels, he doth heir thee;'
5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, 'Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, 'Thus is thy seed.'
6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him — righteousness.
YLT

 

[Dartman]

Dartman..we have been here before but in Isa 48:16..Jesus is speaking:"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

Blade

Yes, we have been here before, and you are still wrong,

This text isn't speaking about Jesus, it is speaking about Jehovah ending the Babylonian captivity of Israel, by the hand of Cyrus.... who Jehovah called by name;

Isa 45:1-6 Thus saith Jehovah to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and I will loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:
2 I will go before thee, and make the rough places smooth; I will break in pieces the doors of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron;
3 and I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that it is I, Jehovah, who call thee by thy name, even the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel my chosen, I have called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;
6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.

 

[Dartman]

The Book of Revelation continuously recycles past, present and future as declared in the opening chapter, as thus...

Write what things you saw (past), and what things are (present), and what things are about to occur after these things (future). (Rev 1.19)

..... yes, there is a tiny bit of "past" from 90AD ish, when John received the vision, but that isn't relevant to the information in Rev 19. That chapter is discussing Christ's 2nd coming, and his bloody destruction of the Kings of the earth.

It hasn't happened yet.

 

[Dartman]

Sorry. The Son of God is different from an angel. Jesus is The ONLY Son of God.

Sorry, "sons of God" means angels in the OT;

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.


Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.


Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dartman,

Sorry, "sons of God" means angels in the OT;
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I hold to the view that ”Sons of God” in Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 is the human worshipers who gathered at some place, for example Salem, but I agree that Job 38:4-7 is speaking concerning the Angels.. Although there is a range of opinion on the following, I suggest that the following “sons of God” is speaking concerning the descendants of Seth in contrast to the descendants of Cain:
Genesis 6:1-4 (KJV): 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Apple7]

The "Devil" isn't mentioned in Col 2, instead "principalities" (Plural) and "authorities" (also plural) are what Paul is discussing.

Col 2:15 having stripped the principalities and the authorities, he made a shew of them openly — having triumphed over them in it.

Incorrect.


Col 2.13 – 15

και υμας νεκρους οντας τοις παραπτωμασιν και τη ακροβυστια της σαρκος υμων συνεζωοποιησεν υμας συν αυτω χαρισαμενος ημιν παντα τα παραπτωματα εξαλειψας το καθ ημων χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν ο ην υπεναντιον ημιν και αυτο ηρκεν εκ του μεσου προσηλωσας αυτο τω σταυρω απεκδυσαμενος τας αρχας και τας εξουσιας εδειγματισεν εν παρρησια θριαμβευσας αυτους εν αυτω

kai hymas nekrous ontas en tois paraptōmasin kai tē akrobystia tēs sarkos hymōn synezōopoiēsen hymas syn auto charisamenos hemin panta ta paraptōmata exaleipsas to kath' hēmōn cheirographon tois dogmasin ho ēn hypenantion hemin kai auto ērken ek tou mesou prosēlōsas auto tō staurō apekdysamenos tas archas kai tas exousias edeigmatisen en parrēsia thriambeusas autos en autō

And you, being dead in the transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the transgressions, having blotted out the handwritten bond in the decrees against us, which was an adversary to us, and He has taken him out of the way, having nailed him to The Cross; having stripped of authority the rulers and the powers, He made a show of them in public, triumphing over them in Him.

Here is the rational for this passage pertaining to Satan:

• The closest preceding nominative (subject) word to ‘He has taken him out of the way’ is the word ‘hypenantion’, rendered as ‘adversary’.
• ‘Adversary’ is singular.
• The only other inflection of this word, in the entire NT, is in the plural term ‘hypenantious’ and is used in Heb 10.27 in the context of a fiery judgment for the ‘adversaries’.
• Clearly, the singular ‘hypenantion’ is Satan; and the plural ‘adversaries’ are the demons.
• The singular neuter personal pronoun ‘auto’ which follows it, can, and does, apply to ‘him’.
• Juxtaposed to this is the conquering of evil in the statements of disarming ‘the rulers and the powers’, which are evil spirits.
• This public display, at The Cross, is referred to using the term ‘thriambeusas’, triumphing, which carries the meaning, ‘I lead one as my prisoner in a triumphant procession’.
• Clearly, and unmistakably, the reader is informed that Satan was bound as a prisoner at The Cross.