ECT JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Totton Linnet

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But they are not able to trace their history back, there is no history of a successon taking place from Peter. It is just a myth or show us when and where it happened.


Kaboom thus endeth the myth of apostolic succession
 

turbosixx

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And whose interpretations of the Bible carry the infallible binding authority of Jesus Christ himself?

The bible is the infallible binding authority. It’s up to you and you alone to determine truth for your souls destiny. For example, Jehovah Witnesses are told they cannot understand the bible without the Society to explain it to them, so they believe what they are told. On judgment day, who will God hold accountable, the individual or the Society?

:think:
When do you want to find out you've been serving men, before or after your last breath?


Yes, since the Catholic Church is able to trace her Magisterium (apostles/bishops)directly back in history to Christ and the apostles themselves.

Are you saying the RCC has apostles?

I'm not sure why you're asking about this, since the Catholic Easter celebration certainly does not contain these elements of the popular culture.

Well how about the Christmas tree. Is it from the Holy Spirit or men?
 
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turbosixx

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It's simple. Since Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, it would be Peter's interpretation which he shared with his brethren.

Exactly, they believed what they heard and it was enough for them to become Christians.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

The only interpretation needed is to believe what you hear. We can read the exact same "authorized" words they heard.
 

Cruciform

New member
If you could point out error...
As I observed in an earlier post, any teaching that fails to comport with the formal doctrines of the Catholic Church would qualify as a theological error.

We do have elders. Acts 20:17...
In the New Testament, elders (bishops") were ordained and appointed by the apostles, and/or by bishops who had already been appointed by an apostle. So, then, can your so-called "elders" trace their episcopal succession back through Christian history to the apostles themselves?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

turbosixx

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As I observed in an earlier post, any teaching that fails to comport with the formal doctrines of the Catholic Church would qualify as a theological error.

This is a claim not proof. I do not recognize the "Catholic Church" as Christ’s church. Your claim would be just like the Jehovah Witnesses saying since your not in agreement with the Society then your lost. Would you accept that as proof? Would you accept proof from the Watchtower?

I only recognize scripture as doctrinal authority. If the RCC is the true church then it's doctrines should not contradict and be in agreement with scripture. Therefore you should be able to use scripture to point out where we are in error. Surely you can find something that the RCC does that is necessary for salvation and based in scripture that we do wrong and therefore make us lost.
 
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turbosixx

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So, then, can your so-called "elders" trace their episcopal succession back through Christian history to the apostles themselves?

1 Tim. 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

These are the qualifications of an elder from the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul. If a man meets these qualifications, how is it any different than Timothy or Paul or the Holy Spirit appointing them?
 

Cruciform

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This is a claim not proof. I do not recognize the "Catholic Church" as Christ’s church.
It is the very same proof that the first Christians offered in the 1st century. The apostles said, "We are the authoritative leaders of Christ's one historic Church and, as such, our teachings are true and binding, identical in authority and truth with Jesus' own teachings (Lk. 10:16; 1 Jn. 4:6). Since our Church was in fact founded by Jesus Christ himself (Mt. 16:18-19)---and since Christ himself has endowed us with his own power and authority (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15)---the teachings of our Church are therefore infallibly true and binding upon believers." Now imagine a 1st-century skeptic replying, "I do not recognize your Church as Christ’s Church. I prefer the Arian sect and choose that as my 'church,' or perhaps the gnostic sect down the street!" How do you think the apostles would respond?

The fact is that the Christian Church can be demonstrated to be fully Catholic in its beliefs and teachings in every single century of ecclesiastical history, from the 1st century down to the present day. That is substantial proof the the Catholic Church is indeed that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and it is really all that's necessary.

Your claim would be just like the Jehovah Witnesses saying since your not in agreement with the Society then your lost. Would you accept that as proof? Would you accept proof from the Watchtower?
Of course not---because, like your own chosen sect, the JWs was not founded by Jesus Christ himself, but rather by a mere man (Charles Taze Russell) during the past five centuries (1872 to be exact).

I only recognize scripture as doctrinal authority.
"Scripture" as infallibly and authoritatively interpreted by whom? Again: Who possesses that inherent authority? Who or what has been endowed by Jesus Christ himself with his (Christ's) own power and binding authority? Charles Russell? Joseph Smith? The human founders of your preferred recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect? Or is it that one historic Catholic Church founded in 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ himself and led by the apostles/bishops that he himself endowed with his own interpretive and doctrinal authority?

If the RCC is the true church then it's doctrines should not contradict and be in agreement with scripture.
"...with Scripture" as infallibly and authoritatively interpreted by whom? Who or what possesses such inherent doctrinal and interpretive authority? You? Your chosen man-made sect? One of the other myriad recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today, with more being fabricated every week?

Therefore you should be able to use scripture to point out where we are in error.
"Scripture" as interpreted by whom? You? Your man-made sect? The Catholic Church? Again, the question of ecclesiology ("What is 'the Church'?") must be definitively answered before one can appeal to Scriptural debate as a basis for solving theological questions. Whose interpretations will we accept as authoritative? Which of our "churches" has the infallible, authoritative, and Christ-endowed ability (and responsibility) to interpret the Bible is a way which is binding upon believers? This must be definitively answered before we can proceed to biblical debate.

Surely you can find something that the RCC does that is necessary for salvation and based in scripture that we do wrong and therefore make us lost.
For me, the first error that comes to mind is the anti-sacramentalism that exists in your belief-system, which is most specifically evident in your doctrine of the Eucharist (Lord's Supper). By contrast, you can view the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist HERE.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

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If a man meets these qualifications, how is it any different than Timothy or Paul or the Holy Spirit appointing them?
Because one is either ordained and appointed through the laying on of hands by an authentic bishop of Christ's one historic Catholic Church---and therefore receives the Sacrament of Holy Orders, and is thus endowed with Christ's own power and authority---or he cannot rightly consider himself a legitimately qualified leader in the one historic Church of Jesus Christ. In the New Testament and throughout Catholic history, bishops can only be ordained by other true bishops.
 

Totton Linnet

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As I observed in an earlier post, any teaching that fails to comport with the formal doctrines of the Catholic Church would qualify as a theological error.


In the New Testament, elders (bishops") were ordained and appointed by the apostles, and/or by bishops who had already been appointed by an apostle. So, then, can your so-called "elders" trace their episcopal succession back through Christian history to the apostles themselves?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

This is a nonsense, no bishops were "appointed" by the apostles...SHOW THE HISTORICAL RECORD you keep saying you have historical records...SHOW THEM. Let us SEE the historical record of a succession from Peter to Linus or Cletus or Beetlejuice or whoever, there is no record.

Bishops were appointed by the assembly.

For certain there is no historical record that the bishop must be treated by the assembly as though he were Christ until Ignatias so ruled this is where the usurpation of the church occurred.

We have the HISTORICAL RECORD of the usurpation of the church by the bishops that is what we have the historical record of.

If you have other records show them
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
Where in the Bible does it say, Christ started "The Catholic Church? Give us some Scripture buddy?

He can't. No such scripture exists. Matter of fact the word "Catholic" is also no where to be found in the scriptures. The OP's claim -assuming his making this assumption- is simply not true.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
The bible isFor example, Jehovah Witnesses are told they cannot understand the bible without the Society to explain it to them,

Thats completely untrue. You won't find anything in JW literature or in the Bible that supports this statement. Jehovahs Witnesses are not robots. If God required robots he would have created them.
 

Totton Linnet

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This is a nonsense, no bishops were "appointed" by the apostles...SHOW THE HISTORICAL RECORD you keep saying you have historical records...SHOW THEM. Let us SEE the historical record of a succession from Peter to Linus or Cletus or Beetlejuice or whoever, there is no record.

Bishops were appointed by the assembly.

For certain there is no historical record that the bishop must be treated by the assembly as though he were Christ until Ignatias so ruled this is where the usurpation of the church occurred.

We have the HISTORICAL RECORD of the usurpation of the church by the bishops that is what we have the historical record of.

If you have other records show them

Show the records...there are none, all you are offering is scotch mist for history. The historical record shows the usurpation of authority in the church by the bishops taking to themselves power and authority which no apostle had.
 
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