Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[Idolater]

Whose glory did Isaiah /'Esaias' see?

...

Isaiah saw the glory of the LORD /Jehovah /YHWH /Yahweh /YHVH....

Yes, he did. And Jehovah is the HIS and HIM in John 12:41, not Jesus.

Let's see.

John 12:

These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?​ 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.​ 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

​

'Appears to me that Jesus is the subject of John 12:36-41 KJV.

We know (Jn17:5KJV) that Jesus possessed glory "before the world was."

Let the reader decide?

 

[MennoSota]

Of course! Jesus never says this.
Yes, Jesus uses the PHRASE; I am...... .just like many other's in the NT.
But your statement inserts "the" .... as if I am was EVER a name! We know it is NOT ever a name.
And, we know Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH ... because Jesus and Jehovah tell us so. Jehovah made it VERY clear, HE is the source of Jesus' words.
Jesus made it VERY clear that he, Jesus, is NOT the source of the words he spoke.

So your statement is fiction.

Only the ones that rejected Jesus made the accusation, and Jesus corrected them; "I SAID, I am the SON of God".
I do the same as the Jews that ACCEPTED JESUS did, calling him "the son of the living God".

You continue to look for reasons to deny the obvious. So be it. God will either cause you to believe or you will remain lost.

 

[Idolater]

...God will either cause you to believe or you will remain lost.

Thus obviating the need for Clavinists to evangelize, or at least to evangelize all that well.

 

[MennoSota]

Thus obviating the need for Clavinists to evangelize, or at least to evangelize all that well.

Nope. What did Jesus tell his disciples if a town refused to believe? Do you recall?
There is a time to leave the dead to their own destruction. When a person denies the deity of Christ and refuses to accept Jesus own words...you let that person go to her/his own demise. The responsibility for convincing someone is not upon the messenger.

 

[Dartman]

.. Oh mean the many spirits up there...ALL HOLY I imagine...I mean nothing unholy can be there right?

Take another look at the text;
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead
Jesus has "the seven spirits of God"...... I think I know what those 7 are, I am curious what you think they are.

BUT BUT BUT...all that was changed abolished done away with fulfilled...

Nope. I don't know of anyone who believes ALL that Jesus did is abolished. The only thing abolished is the Mosaic Law. Jesus kept it perfectly, while confirming Jehovah's NEW COVENANT for 3 1/2 years.

 

[Dartman]

You continue to look for reasons to deny the obvious.

You continue to claim fiction is "obvious". So be it. God will either cause you to believe or you will remain lost.

 

[genuineoriginal]

But, you failed yet again to realize that Gen 37 already informs the reader of Joseph's dream of the sheaves which declares that his brothers will bow to him, NOT worship him!

Your lack of knowledge of the Hebrew language has allowed you to deceive yourself.
Can you guess why?

Spoiler

Exodus 34:14 14 For thou shalt worship (h7812 שָׁחָה) no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:​

Genesis 37:9 9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance (h7812 שָׁחָה) to me.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

NO Christian I have met thinks he can ...make idols

You have never met an Orthodox Christian or a Catholic Christian?

they claim they merely venerate the image and through it worship its prototype...just like the pagans claim

So, you have met Christians that think they can make idols.
I rest my point.

 

[genuineoriginal]

They are one and the same.
How many spirits are you given when you are saved?
How does the Father and Jesus live in the saved when we are only given one Spirit?

If we follow your logic a bit further, then that would mean that we are God Almighty as well.

John 14:19-20 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.​

But Jesus the Son of God is not God His Father and neither are you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are in fellowship with demons who teach you to deny God as one being and three person's.

The Bible does not teach us that God is one being and three persons.
The Bible does teach us that God Almighty is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the Son of God Almighty.
The Son of God is not God the Father, they are two different beings.

 

[MennoSota]

You continue to claim fiction is "obvious". So be it. God will either cause you to believe or you will remain lost.

I believe. Jesus declared himself yo be God and he arose from the dead to prove it.
Keep excusing yourself away...

 

[Dartman]

I believe. Jesus declared himself yo be God and he arose from the dead to prove it.

It appears you do. In that case please provide Scriptures that clearly, simply and directly state your theory.

 

[Bright Raven]

UnitedBibleSocieties.org


The grave is empty, Jesus is risen. This is what we testify. Glory to the living God!

Let us give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Because of his great mercy he gave us new life by raising Jesus Christ from death. This fills us with a living hope (1 Peter 1:3)

I know that my Saviour lives,
and at the end
he will stand on this earth.
My flesh may be destroyed,
yet from this body
I will see God.
(Job 19:25-26)

But God will rescue me; he will save me from the power of death.
(Psalm 49:15)

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me will live, even though they die; and those who live and believe in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25)

The angel spoke to the women. “You must not be afraid,” he said. “I know you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has been raised, just as he said. Come here and see the place where he was lying. (Matthew 28:5-6)

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands; then reach out your hand and put it in my side. Stop your doubting, and believe!” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Do you believe because you see me? How happy are those who believe without seeing me!” (John 20:27-29)

If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved. For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

When I saw him, I fell down at his feet like a dead man. He placed his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the first and the last. I am the living one! I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I have authority over death and the world of the dead.
(Revelation 1:17-18)

Now, since our message is that Christ has been raised from death, how can some of you say that the dead will not be raised to life? If that is true, it means that Christ was not raised; and if Christ has not been raised from death, then we have nothing to preach and you have nothing to believe. More than that, we are shown to be lying about God, because we said that he raised Christ from death—but if it is true that the dead are not raised to life, then he did not raise Christ. For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is a delusion and you are still lost in your sins. It would also mean that the believers in Christ who have died are lost. If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more, then we deserve more pity than anyone else in all the world. But the truth is that Christ has been raised from death, as the guarantee that those who sleep in death will also be raised.
(1 Corinthians 15:12-20)

For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. (John 3:16-17)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Idolater,

John 17:5 KJV "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus and even John 17:5 states concepts that do not simply state Trinitarian concepts of the incarnation. Why does Jesus say “before the world was” and not refer to his so-called glory immediately before his so-called Incarnation? Also what is the significance of “glorify thou me with thine own self”, when a Trinitarian does not believe that it is God the Father’s glory that he would inherit, but simply a resumption of his own glory.

I believe that Jesus is speaking of the glory that God the Father had in reserve for the future Son of Man, our Lord Jesus Christ when God contemplated the creation, and saw the necessity to bring to the birth the Son of Adam who would suffer and die for the salvation of man, and then rule over the earth as King and Shepherd for the 1000 years. The following speaks of this glory which was future at the time of David, who speaks here of the natural and the spiritual creations, and the Son of Man, the Son of Adam who would be glorified and fulfil God’s purpose in the Creation.
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

John 12: These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:40 KJV is a quote from Isaiah 6:9-10 KJV. Whose glory did Isaiah /'Esaias' see?
Isaiah saw the glory of the LORD /Jehovah /YHWH /Yahweh /YHVH, according to the text.
It's a weighty thing to be a Nontrinitarian Christian, you have piles of passages to explain away, and meanwhile, with a correct understanding of the authentic Trinity teaching /doctrine, Trinitarians don't have to explain away anything, since all passages Nontrinitarians use to show the Trinity is false, are based upon misunderstanding the Trinity teaching /doctrine itself. iow it winds up being a bunch of straw man fallacies, when the authentic Trinity is correctly understood.
I used to be Nontrinitarian myself. I know from experience the weight you must bear.

Isaiah 6 is a vision of the future King Priest Jesus enthroned on the Temple throne of David in the future 1000 years reign, similar to the vision of Isaiah 2:1-4. It is a light burden Matthew 11:25-30 and very fulfilling thing and spiritual experience to believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God.


Kind regards
Trevor

 

[MennoSota]

It appears you do. In that case please provide Scriptures that clearly, simply and directly state your theory.

Dart, this has been done. You reject it and claim otherwise. Feel free to reject Jesus. It is your life to live.

 

[glorydaz]

Greetings Idolater, I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus and even John 17:5 states concepts that do not simply state Trinitarian concepts of the incarnation. Why does Jesus say “before the world was” and not refer to his so-called glory immediately before his so-called Incarnation? Also what is the significance of “glorify thou me with thine own self”, when a Trinitarian does not believe that it is God the Father’s glory that he would inherit, but simply a resumption of his own glory.

I believe that Jesus is speaking of the glory that God the Father had in reserve for the future Son of Man, our Lord Jesus Christ when God contemplated the creation, and saw the necessity to bring to the birth the Son of Adam who would suffer and die for the salvation of man, and then rule over the earth as King and Shepherd for the 1000 years. The following speaks of this glory which was future at the time of David, who speaks here of the natural and the spiritual creations, and the Son of Man, the Son of Adam who would be glorified and fulfil God’s purpose in the Creation.
Psalm 8:3-6 (KJV): 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Isaiah 6 is a vision of the future King Priest Jesus enthroned on the Temple throne of David in the future 1000 years reign, similar to the vision of Isaiah 2:1-4. It is a light burden Matthew 11:25-30 and very fulfilling thing and spiritual experience to believe that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God.


Kind regards
Trevor

What contortions the natural man goes through to deny his only Saviour God. :nono:

 

[Bright Raven]

Isaiah 44:6-8 New King James Version (NKJV)
There Is No Other God
6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
7 And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’ ”

 

[Dartman]

Dart, this has been done. You reject it and claim otherwise.

All you have provided are Scriptures you THINK MEAN what you believe. There are no verses that clearly, plainly and directly STATE any tenet unique to trinity/oneness theories.
Here is an admission of this fact by an obviously trinitarian source discussing trinity;

"The New Testament teaching upon this subject is not given in the way of formal statement. The formal statement, however, is legitimately and necessarily deduced from the Scriptures of the New Testament."

Unger's Bible dictionary.

 

[MennoSota]

All you have provided are Scriptures you THINK MEAN what you believe. There are no verses that clearly, plainly and directly STATE any tenet unique to trinity/oneness theories.
Here is an admission of this fact by an obviously trinitarian source discussing trinity;

"The New Testament teaching upon this subject is not given in the way of formal statement. The formal statement, however, is legitimately and necessarily deduced from the Scriptures of the New Testament."

Unger's Bible dictionary.

Keep denying God, Dartman. This is your position and you are free to deny Christ.

 

[7djengo7]

You are wrong. BOTH statements address the uniqueness of the speaker. Jehovah and Jesus are unique for different reasons.
Jesus IS the "first and last" Christ.
Jehovah is the "first and last" God..... "the ONLY true God".

This is sheer stupidity. It's amazing that you actually have so little self-respect that you have no hesitation about writing things like this in a forum. You must imagine you're the only person who is not an idiot.

According to what you just wrote, the phrase, "the first and the last", in Revelation, is utterly useless.

Dartman is "the first and the last" person to post post #1102 in this thread, and, to say that is nothing more than to say that Dartman is the person who posted post #1102 in this thread.
Dartman is "the first and the last" person to post post #1101 in this thread.
Choleric is "the first and the last" person to post post #1099 in this thread.
And so on.

According to your idiotic claim, to say that Jesus is "the first and the last Christ" is nothing more than to say that Jesus is the Christ.

According to your idiotic claim, to say that God is "the first and the last God" is nothing more than to say that God is God.

Not only that, but, WHERE, in Scripture, is the phrase "the first and the last" used as a noun modifier? That's right! Nowhere. But, that's the way YOU just tried to use it: as a noun modifier. Scripture never says "the first and the last Christ", nor "the first and the last God"; that's something you conjured up out of your heretical dementia. In Scripture, the phrase, "the first and the last", functions as a noun.

Notice that you were perceptive enough to NOT say

You are wrong. BOTH statements address the uniqueness of the speaker. Jehovah and Jesus are unique for different reasons.
Jesus IS the "ALPHA AND OMEGA" Christ.
Jehovah is the "ALPHA AND OMEGA" God..... "the ONLY true God".

Doesn't work, does it? That's right! It fails.

Nor did you say

You are wrong. BOTH statements address the uniqueness of the speaker. Jehovah and Jesus are unique for different reasons.
Jesus IS the "BEGINNING AND THE END" Christ.
Jehovah is the "BEGINNING AND THE END" God..... "the ONLY true God".

Doesn't work, does it? That's right! It fails.

So, you and I both understand why you decided to be inconsistent.

By the way: Where, in Scripture, is the phrase "the first and the last" EVER specifically applied to God the Father? That's right! Nowhere.