Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[Dartman]

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.”

John 18:4-8
Then Jesus, knowing all that would happen to him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?” They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I Am.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them. When Jesus said to them, “I Am,” they drew back and fell to the ground. So he asked them again, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus answered, “I told you that I Am. So, if you seek me, let these men go.”

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, “I Am who I Am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”

This theory is an attempt to manufacture inferential evidence, based on a similarity in the English translations of these texts, and based on manipulation of interpretation by the deliberate, biased use of capital letters in order to fabricate a title, where there is none.
The phrase "ego eimi" is a VERY common phrase, used MANY times in the NT, here is a sample;

Matt 8:8-9 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."


Luke 1:18 Zacharias said to the angel, "How will I know this for certain? For I am an old man and my wife is advanced in years."


Luke 1:19 The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.


Luke 21:8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.


John 1:20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."


John 1:27 "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."


John 3:28 "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'


John 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one."


Acts 10:21 Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?"


Acts 13:25 "And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, 'What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'


Acts 21:39 But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."


Acts 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel,




Exodus was written in Hebrew, and the NT was written in Greek, so OBVIOUSLY the title Jehovah/YHVH God stated to Moses in Ex 6:14 is NOT "ego eimi"!

In fact, the LXX translates the Hebrew title as "O' On"!! And the English translation of the LXX is "The Being".

 

[Dartman]

If that's all He is, how then can He be called: The Root and The Offspring of David?

1) I didn't say "All he is".

That's your "Straw Man".

2) Jesus can be called "the root" and "the offspring of David" because those are both phrases used prophetically of Jesus.

Isa 11:1-3 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Jesus grows "out of the roots" of Jesse, David's father.


Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.




Acts 13:22-23... He raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also He gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after Mine own heart, which shall fulfil all My will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

 

[Aimiel]

This theory is an attempt to manufacture inferential evidence, based on a similarity in the English translations of these texts, and based on manipulation of interpretation by the deliberate, biased use of capital letters in order to fabricate a title, where there is none.
The phrase "ego eimi" is a VERY common phrase, used MANY times in the NT, here is a sample;

Matt 8:8-9 But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
9 "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."


Luke 1:18 Zacharias said to the angel, "How will I know this for certain? For I am an old man and my wife is advanced in years."


Luke 1:19 The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.


Luke 21:8 And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.


John 1:20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."


John 1:27 "It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."


John 3:28 "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'


John 9:9 Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one."


Acts 10:21 Peter went down to the men and said, "Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?"


Acts 13:25 "And while John was completing his course, he kept saying, 'What do you suppose that I am? I am not He. But behold, one is coming after me the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'


Acts 21:39 But Paul said, "I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."


Acts 22:3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel,




Exodus was written in Hebrew, and the NT was written in Greek, so OBVIOUSLY the title Jehovah/YHVH God stated to Moses in Ex 6:14 is NOT "ego eimi"!

In fact, the LXX translates the Hebrew title as "O' On"!! And the English translation of the LXX is "The Being".

None of those end their sentence: "... I Am." Jesus, Who is The I Am, in The Flesh, did.

 

[Dartman]

None of those end their sentence: "... I Am."

That's irrelevant. The meaning is identical. It is merely a phrase indicating first person and current state. "ego eimi" is NEVER a title.

Jesus, Who is The I Am.

The phrase "The I am" never occurs in the Scriptures.

 

[Aimiel]

Jesus grows "out of the roots" of Jesse, David's father.

Neither The Holy Bible or myself said, "Out of the roots," that's your strawman. Jesus is The Root of David, being Father of all living things.

 

[Aimiel]

That's irrelevant. The meaning is identical. It is merely a phrase indicating first person and current state. "ego eimi" is NEVER a title. The phrase "The I am" never occurs in the Scriptures.

Seeing irrelevance and seeing meaning come from one's interpretation. I believe that Jesus claimed The Title: "I Am," and also gave us insight into the meaning of This Title:

"I Am The (One and Only) Way;"
"I Am The (One and Only) Truth," and;
"I Am The (One and Only) Life."

Speaking to the OP: you cannot prove a negative. There is PLENTY of proofs that Jesus IS God, in The Flesh! You have to close your heart to miss any of them.

 

[clefty]

Oh. You think there is more than one divine being, eh?

Oh boy oh my oh me you got me...just not a trinity

 

[clefty]

So you're saying you don't fancy yourself a comedian? :shocked:

Nope I don’t...I am the audience not on stage...yours have mic the spotlight and the fanboyz...and cute attention seeking emojis

So enough about the messenger, care to speak on the message?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Aimiel,

None of those end their sentence: "... I Am." Jesus, Who is The I Am, in The Flesh, did.

Could you explain why the KJV translators translated the same phrase in the immediate context as “I am he” and not “I AM”:
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Also in the above is Jesus claiming to be Deity, or is he suggesting that he would suffer and die at their hands and his absolute dependence upon God. His Father?

John 9:8–9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The above has the same expression at the end of the sentence as John 8:58.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[MennoSota]

This theory is an attempt to manufacture inferential evidence, based on a similarity in the English translations of these texts, and based on manipulation of interpretation by the deliberate, biased use of capital letters in order to fabricate a title, where there is none.

Nope. The verses I quoted are enough. You have shown that you refuse to believe. Turn your back on God. I shake off my sandals.

 

[Dartman]

Neither The Holy Bible or myself said, "Out of the roots," that's your strawman. Jesus is The Root of David, being Father of all living things.

Isa 11:1-3 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

 

[musterion]

A man.
A descendant of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Jacob, David and David's Great (several times) granddaughter... Mary.

Is Christ, in Himself, a created being?

 

[genuineoriginal]

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

So what do you suggest this means, GO?

I'll tell you.

John 1:1KJV, John 1:14KJV

Since Jesus Christ is the Son of God (look it up), it means that the Son of God came in the flesh.

We are to confess that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 4:15 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.​

We are to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

1 John 5:5 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?​

We are to believe the witness of God and the record that God gave of His Son, else we make God a liar.

1 John 5:9-10 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.​

good thing you told him , I don' think he would have got it.

Scripture doesn't say God came Himself, scripture states that God sent His only begotten Son into the world.

1 John 4:9 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

is Jesus an alien or a man ?

Scriptures state that Jesus is a man.

1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

Gentile unbelievers are aliens according to scripture.

Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

 

[Dartman]

Seeing irrelevance and seeing meaning come from one's interpretation. I believe that Jesus claimed The Title: "I Am," and also gave us insight into the meaning of This Title:

There is no title "I Am". That's a poor translation of the Hebrew, and a deliberate distortion of the Greek by the arbitrary capatilization of "Am"... ego eimi is a common phrase as I proved.

"I Am The (One and Only) Way;"
"I Am The (One and Only) Truth," and;
"I Am The (One and Only) Life."

Absolutely true now .... it was NOT true before Jesus was baptized.
Job 9:31-34 Yet You would plunge me into the pit, And my own clothes would abhor me.
32 "For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, That we may go to court together.
33 "There is no umpire between us, Who may lay his hand upon us both.
34 "Let Him remove His rod from me, And let not dread of Him terrify me.


BUT, now there IS a mediator;


1 Tim 2:5, 6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Jesus makes it very clear;




John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and (now) I work.


When Jehovah/YHVH anointed Jesus of Nazareth, and then sent him into the world, Jehovah COMMANDED Jesus to fulfill these appointed roles.

Luke 4:16-21 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Speaking to the OP: you cannot prove a negative.

You are confused.
The OP isn't attempting to prove that Jesus, or his God Jehovah, do not exist.
Proving something doesn't EXIST is the fallacy called "proving a negative".
It's EASY to prove I am NOT the King of England.
It's EASY to prove Jesus is NOT Jehovah, but his Father IS.

There is PLENTY of proofs that Jesus IS God, in The Flesh! ..

Sorry, I will stick with the "Jesus" that is actually PREACHED to every crowd in the Bible. There simply is NEVER a trinitarian/oneness "Jesus" preached to ANY group of people in the Scriptures .... never.

 

[Dartman]

Is Christ, in Himself, a created being?

Of course.
Christ in EVERY SENSE is a created being, Jesus is the 2nd Adam.

 

[Dartman]

Scriptures state that Jesus is a man.

1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

Gentile unbelievers are aliens according to scripture.

Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Jesus isn't a Gentile, he is a descendant of Abraham, Judah, David through David's descendant Mary.
Jesus IS a man, as genuineoriginal proved.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings MennoSota,

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.”
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, “I Am who I Am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”

Nope. The verses I quoted are enough. You have shown that you refuse to believe. Turn your back on God. I shake off my sandals.

The Yahweh Name - Initial Declaration and Fulfilment
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s' God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God'’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel'’s salvation. This introduces how the Yahweh Name is a component of the Name "Jesus", Yahweh's Salvation, or He who will be salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[MennoSota]

Greetings MennoSota,
The Yahweh Name - Initial Declaration and Fulfilment
The following is a consideration of the Yahweh Name that was revealed in Exodus 3:14. It is hoped that the following comments will help to explain some of the language of both the OT and NT and the true role of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

The Name of God was revealed to Moses in the following terms:
Exodus 3:14-15 (KJV): 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular it appears that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

The word “ehyeh” is in Exodus 3:14 is the same in the earlier statement in v12, and here the translators give the future tense:
Exodus 3:12 (KJV): And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
Not only does this fix the tense, it also introduces the concept that the Name of God is also associated with some future activity.

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this future work in delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:
Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s' God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
The future tense of God'’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel'’s salvation. This introduces how the Yahweh Name is a component of the Name "Jesus", Yahweh's Salvation, or He who will be salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

I have no desire to excuse away what God has said. Yeshua (Jesus) unmistakably declares himself to be God. Any attempt to explain it away is merely humans rejecting God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again MennoSota,

I have no desire to excuse away what God has said. Yeshua (Jesus) unmistakably declares himself to be God. Any attempt to explain it away is merely humans rejecting God.

I appreciate your response, and that you are convinced of your perspective. There are many passages that initially seem to support your view, but I suggest that Jesus claimed to be “The Son of God” and a careful consideration will help to reveal the meaning of some of the “difficult passages”. The following is a good summary of the teaching of John’s Gospel.
John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor