Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah/YHVH God

[Dartman]

this is the real issue of anti trinitarian threads is it not , that Jesus is not God ?

Correct. The real issue is Jesus' GOD is "the ONLY true God", according to Jesus himself.

 

[Idolater]

Nope. He promised to raise up, to stand up physically, after his God raised him from the dead.Jesus doesn't address the fact that it is his God that resurrected him in this verse.
But the NT is VERY clear, the Father raised Jesus from the dead;

It's just as clear that Christ Jesus raised Himself. John 10:17-18 KJV

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Close! It is impossible for the son to be his own Father

It is impossible for the Son to be the Father.

, his own God.

The Father is God, and the Son is God.

And the Father generated the son when Mary conceived in Nazareth, and Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

What about God the Spirit? I seem to recall Him being involved.

 

[john w]

Deut 18:17-18 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.


John 12:49-50 For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, He hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.


John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.





It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

False dichotomy. He was fulfilling his role as a prophet, the prophet.

Lay out the biblical definition of "prophet."

I will lay out my interpretation, afterwards. Let's see what you've got.

 

[john w]

the holy spirit is God's mind, and the power produced by God's mind.

You made that up. No scripture says that. Why did you lie?

 

[Dartman]

It's just as clear that Christ Jesus raised Himself. John 10:17-18 KJV

1) you haven't produced even one text that shows Jesus "RESURRECTED" himself.
You HAVE provided one verse where Jesus promises to stand up again, after death. And now one verse where Jesus states he will take up his life again.
John 10:1 I lay down my life, that I might take it again.We KNOW Jesus didn't kill himself, AND we KNOW that Jesus didn't resurrect himself. EVERY verse that discusses the RESURRECTION of Jesus from the dead states that his God, his Father, is who raised Jesus from the dead.

Your misunderstanding of Jesus statements CONTRADICTS ALL of the Scriptures that actually STATE who "RESURRECTED" Jesus!

It is impossible for the Son to be the Father.
The Father is God,

Correct!

and the Son is God

Incorrect. Jesus, Jehovah, and the apostles clearly state the Father is "the ONLY true God".

What about God the Spirit?

That phrase is never found in Scripture.

I seem to recall Him being involved.

IT is VERY involved! IT is Jehovah/YHVH God's own mind, and the power produced by God's mind.
Luke 1:1 The holy spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

[Dartman]

You made that up. No scripture says that. ..

Luke 1:1 The holy spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


1 Cor 2:6-12 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His spirit: for the spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


"God's wisdom", and "God's spirit" are synonymous terms, used interchangeably with God's power.
"The wisdom of the world", and "the spirit of the world" are also synonymous terms, also used interchangeably.


God's spirit, and the spirit of the world are opposites in MANY ways.

 

[Dartman]

False dichotomy. He was fulfilling his role as a prophet, the prophet.

Lay out the biblical definition of "prophet."

I will lay out my interpretation, afterwards. Let's see what you've got.

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

 

[john w]

Luke 1:1 The holy spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


1 Cor 2:6-12 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His spirit: for the spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


"God's wisdom", and "God's spirit" are synonymous terms, used interchangeably with God's power.
"The wisdom of the world", and "the spirit of the world" are also synonymous terms, also used interchangeably.


God's spirit, and the spirit of the world are opposites in MANY ways.

You lied:



Matthew 3:16 KJV

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.


You:When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw God's mind descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

 

[john w]

It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

Is Jehovah/YHVH God a king?

 

[Dartman]

Is Jehovah/YHVH God a king?

HE is the ultimate king..... who sets up MANY kings;

Dan 4:17, 25 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
... till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Jehovah also set up Jesus as king;


Ps 2:1-9
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against His anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: Jehovah hath said unto me, Thou art My son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Dartman]

Matthew 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.


You:When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw ..... the POWER produced by God's mind , and the wisdom and knowledge of God's mind ..... descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

I corrected your statement of my beliefs.

 

[Idolater]

1) you haven't produced even one text that shows Jesus "RESURRECTED" himself.
You HAVE provided one verse where Jesus promises to stand up again, after death. And now one verse where Jesus states he will take up his life again.
John 10:1 I lay down my life, that I might take it again.We KNOW Jesus didn't kill himself, AND we KNOW that Jesus didn't resurrect himself. EVERY verse that discusses the RESURRECTION of Jesus from the dead states that his God, his Father, is who raised Jesus from the dead.

Your take on John 2:19 KJV ("Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up") and John 10:17-18 KJV ("I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again") beggars belief imo. I don't accept it.

Your misunderstanding of Jesus statements CONTRADICTS ALL of the Scriptures that actually STATE who "RESURRECTED" Jesus!
Correct!
Incorrect. Jesus, Jehovah, and the apostles clearly state the Father is "the ONLY true God".
That phrase is never found in Scripture.
IT is VERY involved! IT is Jehovah/YHVH God's own mind, and the power produced by God's mind.
Luke 1:1 The holy spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Spirit is called "Him" and /or "He" in John 14:17 KJV ("it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you"), John 14:26 KJV ("he shall teach you all things"), John 15:26 KJV ("he shall testify of me"). He is not an "IT!"

 

[john w]

I corrected your statement of my beliefs.

Deception.

No, you asserted that God's mind descended.

 

[john w]

HE is the ultimate king..... who sets up MANY kings;

Dan 4:17, 25 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
... till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Jehovah also set up Jesus as king;


Ps 2:1-9
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against Jehovah, and against His anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall He speak unto them in His wrath, and vex them in His sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: Jehovah hath said unto me, Thou art My son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Is the Lord Jesus Christ king?Yes?

2 Kings, you deceiver?

 

[john w]

Deception.

No, you asserted that God's mind descended.

Acts 5 KJV
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

You:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to God's mind, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Fraud.

 

[john w]

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Evasion. You just spammed a set of verses.


False dichotomy. He was fulfilling his role as a prophet, the prophet.

Lay out the biblical definition of "prophet."

I will lay out my interpretation, afterwards. Let's see what you've got.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't think we need anymore Anti-Christ threads around here.

You seem to have a strange definition of "anti-christ" that is opposite from the actual meaning of the term.

1 John 2:22 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.​

1 John 4:14-15 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.​

 

[john w]

Deut 18:17-18
It is impossible for Jesus to be "Jehovah" because Jesus is NOT the source of the words he spoke, his God is. His FATHER is Jehovah!

No-false dichotomy. Scripture testifies that the Messiah, the Christ, would fulfill all three roles: 1.Prophet, the prophet,2. King, 3. Priest.


Part of the definition of a prophet is "one who speaks for another"(for eg., Moses speaking on behalf of the LORD, Aaron speaking for Moses-Exodus 4:12-15 KJVV("put words in his mouth"),16("thy spokesman"); Exodus 7:1 KJV; Deuteronomy 18:18 KJV("will put my words in his mouth").

The Lord Jesus Christ was a prophet, "the prophet": Deuteronomy. 18:15 KJV;Matthew 13:57 KJV,Matthew 21:11 KJV;Mark 6:4 KJV; Luke 1:76 KJV,Luke 4:24 KJV,Luke 7:16 KJV, Luke 24:19 KJV;John 1:45 KJV,John 4:44 KJV,John 6:14 KJV,John 7:40 KJV,John 9:17 KJV; Acts 2:30 KJV,Acts 3:22-23 KJV,Acts 7:37 KJV. The definition fits the Lord Jesus Christ's own admission:

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John. 8:28 KJV

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John. 12:49-50 KJV

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10 KJV

Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ was fulfilling His role as a/the prophet. He was speaking for His Father in Heaven-the words He spoke were His Father's words, not His(as was true for all the prophets).


You: The prophet cannot be God!!!!

Slower: God, and man.

Accept it.

Scripture further testifies:

-Matthew:the Lord Jesus Christ presented as King(lion),

-Mark:the Lord Jesus Christ presented as Servant(ox-notice no geneology given in Mark. Why not? This is not relevant for servants),

-Luke: the Lord Jesus Christ presented as man,the son of man


-John:the Lord Jesus Christ presented as the Son of God, deity(eagle)....

Accept it.

 

[chair]

..
And this is your word, and we also have the word of the Apostles, which we receive as authoritative, as Christians. The Apostolic teachings are authoritative, and the Apostles taught the Trinity...

Perhaps. But did the Apostle teach that these particular verses refer to the Trinity?

 

[musterion]

Is the Lord Jesus Christ king?Yes?

2 Kings, you deceiver?

Now he'll start ignoring you, evading, distracting. Watch.