Jehovah's Witness History - by Walter Martin
- Thread starter beameup
- Start date
NWL
Active member
So let me get this straight, Jesus is the God man (***God/man****) and the man part of him was dead/separate from the person of Jesus for three days, after three days Jesus got back the man part of him because it wasn't completely annihilated.
So were agreeing that Jesus humanity was separate from the person of Jesus (***God/ ***) for three days?
Nope, since the bible speaks in either literal or symbolic language. Jesus being a door would of course be symbolic language. Now, unless you think Phil 2:6-9 was symbolic, which I'm pretty sure both of us can agree its not, you have no point.
So are you saying that when the greek word "morphe" in Phil 2:6 is applied Christ its symbolic in the same way Jesus is called the door/gate?
Right Divider
Body part
So... these verses would assist your words...
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
And about the "He might bring us to God"
John 13:36 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward
Hmmmmm... one would have to be pretty duped to "miss" the "plain" TRUTH spoken.
NWL
Active member
Sorry I'm clearly confused, so when Jesus humanity was dead, he wasn't separate from Jesus diety? I don't understand how the humanity of Jesus as the God man could be dead for three days and yet not be separate?
What effect did death have on Jesus being the God man other than his humanity being dead for three days but not completely annihilated. Surely if his humanity was dead for three days the person of Jesus was without his humanity for three days?
Instead of referring to me as deceiving cultist whatever everytime I ask you a question how about you answer or explain instead so I might understand your position.
I'll tell you something though, I've read a lot of exegesis and commentaries and other religious articles, I've yet to find one that states "morphe" in Phil 2:6 is symbolic.
I'm confused about one thing though, how can you say "morphe" is symbolic and then impose a definition of a word completely unrelated to it? What language is used for you to believe "morphe" is symbolic for "deity"?
Right Divider
Body part
Jesus did not lose His human nature when He died. What exactly is your issue beside trying to deny the truth?
Death is NOT the end of a human, just in case you did not know that.
I have been. And every time that I do, you try to twist it into something that it is not.
Well, if the commentaries don't confirm it... it can't be true.... right? :rotfl:
Because Jesus was in the morphe of GOD. There is ONLY ONE that is in the morphe of God and that is God.
Remember this?
John 14:8-9 (KJV)
(14:8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. (14:9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Same principle (which, no doubt, you will deny.... brush aside.... etc. etc. etc.)
NWL
Active member
I'm not saying he lost it, I'm saying he was without it for three days was he not? How can Jesus human nature be dead and yet he still has is, if it died then surely he was without it for three days. According to what I understand you're saying is that Jesus death did nothing to the person Jesus. I contest it did.
No but the dead are in a sleep like state as Jesus and the bible teaches, Jesus was dead for three days, his humaity knew nothing.
(John 11:11-13) "..After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep.."
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) "..For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all.."
(Psalm 146:4) "''His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.."
So Jesus as a person was without his human nature for three days correct?
No of course not, I did not say nor imply anything like that. But don't you think its strange that not a single learned person has made the connection that "morphe" in Phil 2:6 is symbolic, you RD must be a genius to finally work something out that not a single person ever has.
Whats more likely, you're right vs every single NT scholar in existence. :think:
Circular reasoning.
Jesus wasn't talking about his "form" here, remember Phil 2:6 states "who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human". So unless you're trying to prove that Jesus, who emptied himself from being in the form of God resembled the Father in form, even though Phil 2:6 he emptied himself of that form was that form you're making no sense. Jesus stating he who had seen him has seen the Father was talking about message, remember not a single action did was his own, everything Jesus did was commanded to him by the Father his God (John 12:49). For these reasons Jesus could say who had seen him had seen the Father.
Right Divider
Body part
In His humanity, He was dead. It's just that simple
Incorrect. Sleep is a euphemism for death, nothing more.
I don't put much stock in "experts" when it comes to the Bible. There are many "experts" that are totally wrong.
Nope.
He "emptied himself" by coming down from heaven to take a form of a man. It's just that simple.
1Tim 3:16 (KJV)
(3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
No doubt another scripture that you'll reject.
Speaks to your heart to judge by his looks.
Welcome back Meshak
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever
[MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] ... Welcome Back
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever
[MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] ... Welcome Back
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
It is Christ's perfect unity with the Father that is the basis of His Diety. All that He is, all that He ever was; was gotten from the Father, what He got was Oneness, perfect tried and true Oneness. Through the Valley of the shadow of death, that was His pain and suffering and temptation that demonstrated His human flesh and then His diety through the victory of it all. But alas only God can pay the price for us literally; to withstand what He did; and justly by the debt being paid, a price higher than human could pay. Christ never ceased to exist, His flesh only remained lifeless until it was filled with His Spirit again in its glorified state.
The fault in JW is understanding the Spiritual continuality.
The only hole I see in the posting of that video is that it leaves one to over relying on someone else's labor (in this case, Martin's) in contrast to what is actually needed - each individual's learning how to both properly study out, and present, a thing one-self.
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
Reminds me of a debate between two individuals, I once witnessed in the aisle of a Christian book store.
The one completely wiped the floor with the other; with passage after passage of Scripture the one had clearly twisted and distorted every which way.
For he clearly knew the Scripture; but just as clearly proved he had no understanding of all the many passages he had been so easily able to point to.
In contrast, though the individual the floor had been wiped with had been right; said individual had been unable to cite and or turn to even one passage of Scripture, due to his obvious over reliance on another's labor.
1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.