Jehovah's Witness History - by Walter Martin

[NWL]

Jesus is the HIGH PRIEST you brainwashed, duped, WatchTower Papacy drone!

Isaiah 61:6 but you shall be called the priests of the LORD; they shall speak of you as the ministers of our God; you shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory you shall boast

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/isaiah/61-6.htm

Priests have a high priest... take a guess... nope... because you are taken sucker by your POPE "The WatchTower".

You have CHOSEN your Master and Hate Jesus our GOD, Savior and John 5:39!

Please don't talk to me EE until you're willing to answer my questions in the previous thread. You are not capable of discussion because you refuse to clarify and answer back to questions and rebuttals.

Moreover, I know Jesus is the high priest, why do you think I showed the verse in Hebrews. Just to let you know a high priest is still a priest. Oh wait, silly me I forgot, you don't actually care that I wasn't even incorrect, you just wanted to accuse and insult like you typically do.

 

[NWL]

Seriously?

The human part, of course.

The man died and was resurrected. Just like He said that He would be.

Interesting.

Out of curiosity could you shed some light on who the identity of the person being spoken of is in both of these verses, Rev 1:7,8 and Rev 1:17. This isn't me changing subjects.

(Revelation 1:7, 8) "..Look! He [Jesus] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen. 8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”.."

(Revelation 1:17) "..When I saw him [Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.."

Who is the person described as "coming" in Rev 1:8, and what does it mean that Jesus is "the first and the last" in Rev 1:17? Does it have anything to do with Rev 1:8?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Please don't talk to me EE until you're willing to answer my questions in the previous thread. You are not capable of discussion because you refuse to clarify and answer back to questions and rebuttals.

Moreover, I know Jesus is the high priest, why do you think I showed the verse in Hebrews. Just to let you know a high priest is still a priest. Oh wait, silly me I forgot, you don't actually care that I wasn't even incorrect, you just wanted to accuse and insult like you typically do.

You misunderstand my purpose. I'm exposing your brainwashing to others. I'm simply taking the time to make the replies edgy for "effect".

There are others here that may actually care what brainwashed ideas you express... and good on them for giving you an ear... but I'm simply rebutting the lies that you have allowed the WatchTower to fill your head with.

 

[Right Divider]

Interesting.

Out of curiosity could you shed some light on who the identity of the person being spoken of is in both of these verses, Rev 1:7,8 and Rev 1:17. This isn't me changing subjects.

(Revelation 1:7, 8) "..Look! He [Jesus] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen. 8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”.."

(Revelation 1:17) "..When I saw him [Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.."

Who is the person described as "coming" in Rev 1:8, and what does it mean that Jesus is "the first and the last" in Rev 1:17? Does it have anything to do with Rev 1:8?

That is all about the LORD Jesus Christ.

The first and the last is the same as the alpha and omega (those are the first and last characters in the Greek language).

 

[NWL]

You misunderstand my purpose. I'm exposing your brainwashing to others. I'm simply taking the time to make the replies edgy for "effect".

There are others here that may actually care what brainwashed ideas you express... and good on them for giving you an ear... but I'm simply rebutting the lies that you have allowed the WatchTower to fill your head with.

Its hardly a rebuttal when you can't even defend the counter rebuttal I give back. I really don't know what world you're living in where I can ask you a simple question and you refuse to answer and some how you still think your showing an example to others that what we teach is false.

 

[NWL]

That is all about the LORD Jesus Christ.

The first and the last is the same as the alpha and omega (those are the first and last characters in the Greek language).

Ok, so when it speaks about Jesus being the first and the last, its in reference to him being the ALpha and Omega in Rev 1:8, I get you.

Since its goes on to say in Rev 1:8 that Jesus is "Almighty" and of course the Alpha and Omega prior to this, is this talking about the man Jesus here or him as God, since it says Alpha and Omega, first and last and Almighty?

 

[drbrumley]

The God man reasoning itself is fallacious, how for example was it possible for God to die?

That is actually a great question...

 

[Right Divider]

Ok, so when it speaks about Jesus being the first and the last, its in reference to him being the ALpha and Omega in Rev 1:8, I get you.

Since its goes on to say in Rev 1:8 that Jesus is "Almighty" and of course the Alpha and Omega prior to this, is this talking about the man Jesus here or him as God, since it says Alpha and Omega, first and last and Almighty?

That would be a reference to His deity.

Alpha and omega means first and last.

 

[NWL]

That is actually a great question...

If you love that then you're going to love what I ask [him] next.

 

[drbrumley]

If you love that then you're going to love what I ask next.

Fire away

 

[NWL]

That would be a reference to His deity.

Alpha and omega means first and last.

Ok, now you told me that Jesus is both God and man, that when Jesus died the Man part was that which died, since of course hid Godship side is eternal.

I asked you who Rev 1:8 (the alpha and omega) was in regards, you told me Jesus. I asked you what does the reference of Jesus being the "first and the last" in Rev 1:17 meant, you told me the same thing as the being the "alpha and omega".

I asked you was the reference of Jesus being the "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last" in relation to his deity or Man part, you answered his deity part.

If that is the case then please tell me why the scriptures state that Jesus, who according to you is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the almighty God, died, since Rev 1:17,18 and Rev 2:8 both say that Jesus, who again is the first and the last, and alpha and omega according to you, died!

(Revelation 1:17, 18) "..When I saw him [Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.."

(Revelation 2:8) “..And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he [Jesus] says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

Like I said, the whole Jesus being the God man argument is fallacious in itself.

 

[Right Divider]

Ok, now you told me that Jesus is both God and man, that when Jesus died the Man part was that which died, since of course hid Godship side is eternal.

I asked you who Rev 1:8 (the alpha and omega) was in regards, you told me Jesus. I asked you what does the reference of Jesus being the "first and the last" in Rev 1:17 meant, you told me the same thing as the being the "alpha and omega".

I asked you was the reference of Jesus being the "Alpha and Omega" and "the first and the last" in relation to his deity or Man part, you answered his deity part.

If that is the case then please tell me why the scriptures state that Jesus, who according to you is the alpha and omega, the first and the last, the almighty God, died, since Rev 1:17,18 and Rev 2:8 both say that Jesus, who again is the first and the last, and alpha and omega according to you, died!

(Revelation 1:17, 18) "..When I saw him [Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.."

(Revelation 2:8) “..And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he [Jesus] says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.."

The LORD Jesus Christ has TWO natures. It's as simple as that.

You're looking for excuses instead of believing the scripture.

 

[NWL]

The LORD Jesus Christ has TWO natures. It's as simple as that.

You're looking for excuses instead of believing the scripture.

Yes, and you just told me that out of those two natures in Rev 1:17 and Rev 2:8 accordingly, were in relation to his deity, so explain how the "first and the last", Jesus deity side, died.

It clearly states the "the First and the Last" became dead, you need to explain this.

 

[NWL]

It appears the cat has got Rightdivider tounge.

For any people wondering how Jesus as the "first and the last" was able to die, it was because he was NOT God. Jesus was NOT the alpha and omega (A&O), he was the "first and last" as Rev 1:17, Rev 2:8 clearly show though, but the "first and the last" in reference to Jesus and the A&O in reference to God mean different things, which I can demonstrate if someone demands it. Because Jesus was not God he was able to die, Jesus cannot be God since he died. This is irrefutable as Rightdivider just found out. Rightdivider claimed Jesus was a God man, he claimed the Jesus human part died, he was questioned by me regarding this and the reasoning to it was found faulty, he contradicted himself in a matter of minutes within a single post.

We can see that Jesus wasn't the A&O by looking at Rev 1:8 which speaks of the A&O where it shows the A&O is the same person as "the One who is and who was and who is coming"

(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now in Rev 1:4,5 it clearly shows that “the One who is and who was and who is coming", namely the A&O, is distinguished as a separate person from Jesus.

(Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ.."

Jesus is clearly seen as separate from "the One who is and who was and who is coming" who we know to be the A&O in Rev 1:8, thus Jesus is not the person being spoken of in Rev 1:8, Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega nor the God man rightdivder claimed.

 

[beameup]

Firstly, you've inserted the word "Lord" into Joel 2:32 to make it appear as the "Lord Jehovah" to make your argument seem more credible. Don't insert words into scripture especially when your doing trying to make a point/argument unless you have good reason to do so. You did the same thing again in Acts 2:21, the term Jehovah is lacking in NT manuscripts, however, it is a quote from the OT so inserting the name "Jehovah" could be thought as valid. But to again apply both terms "lord Jehovah" instead of one over the other is simply an attempt by you to make the term in the beginning of Romans 10 seem more credible.

Now we get to Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13. The Lord in v9 is regarding Jesus, the term in v13 is in regards to Jehovah.

Romans 10 is regarding Gods relationship with Israel and how it was lost and how Israel can again get the relatioship back. When we look at Romans 10:1 we can see this context being applied, "Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelite is that they may be saved" (Romans 10:1). Now some people claim that the Lord mentioned in Romans 10:13, which is a reference to Jehovah from the OT. The way we know that Jesus is separate from the Jehovah of v13 is by Romans 10:11 that says Jesus was the cornerstone that God laid as mentioned in Romans 10:11, "For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed".Romans 10:11 was taken from Isaiah 28:16 that states:

"..Therefore, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "Look! I am placing a [Bfoundation stone[/B] in Jerusalem, a firm and tested stone. It is a precious cornerstone that is safe to build on. Whoever believes need never be shaken.."

As we can see Jehovah laid that corner stone and Romans 10:11 states that the cornerstone was Jesus, if Jehovah laid Jesus down as the cornerstone then Jesus can't be the Jehovah mentioned. Jesus isn't the Lord/Jehovah being quoted in Romans 10:13. Since Jesus said he came in his Fathers name (John 5:43) and that by accepting Jesus your accepting his Father Jehovah (John 5:23) since Jesus is a representative of the Father it is Jehovah name you call upon to be saved, doing so through Jesus. Christ himself had to pray to Jehovah in order to be saved, (Hebrews 5:7), setting the example for us.

(Hebrews 5:7) "..During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.."

BTW, you completely ignored my request, a typical tactic people who can't refute plain truths do.

You stated "An angel (or archangel) cannot be a "ransom" for a man (Adam). It makes absolutely no "sense" whatsoever. But you are stuck with that, as that is official Watchtower Doctrine. And I don't care what sort of "works" you are doing individually or collectively, because by "works shall no flesh be justified" before God.

Could you provide some scriptural evidence for what you claimed regarding provisions of a ransom. If you are unable to find an example could you please admit that an angel coming down as perfect Human would not be suited as a ransom when compared to Adam is simply an assumption you dreamed up.

"Jehovah" is not the "name of God". "Jehovah" is a Latin-bastardization of the Hebrew consonants yod-hey-vav-hey with the vowels from adonay sandwiched between the consonants.
Of course, back in 1870, Charles Taze Russel was totally ignorant of the original languages of Hebrew and Greek. It's obvious that there was zero divine inspiration involved in forming the "Watchtower Society".

This is God's name, and the pronunciation is unknown because all vowels were removed from the word.

This exact phrase is quoted three times, in Joel, in Acts, and in Romans where it is more specific. The SUBJECT of Romans 10:9-13 is JESUS CHRIST - he is the one to "call upon".
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[jamie]

He doesn't have priests. It is Jehovah (God) who has priests.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
(Revelation 20:6)

Priests of God and of Christ.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings NWL,

The message and plain truth of the Bible are irrefutable, our imperfect human members are not.

Are you claiming here that JW teaching corresponds to “The message and plain truth of the Bible?"

Attack the message we preach and not us ourselves, all threads like this show is that anti-JW's are incapable of refuting our reasoning and the things we've learnt and thus result to more drastic measures to try and discredit us, so that our simple truth go on ignored.

Perhaps you may like to give an answer to two things that have been mentioned. My impression is that JWs claim that their organisation is Spirit-guided. Could I ask, if this is correct then why did they choose the name Jehovah Witnesses, and not using for example Yahweh. Even the latest booklet still attempts to teach that God’s Name is Jehovah. “What does the Bible Really Teach?” page 13 states: “However, the Bible also teaches that God has a personal name: Jehovah.” On page 197 Rotherham is quoted, but most probably few JWs would have a copy, neither would they realise that many years before the JWs selected their name that Rotherham gave a thorough exposition of why it is inappropriate to use the name Jehovah.

In regards to the apparent "failed prophecies" that we made, we made no such prophecies. There is a difference in making prophecy and it be proving false (false prophet), and interpreting an already establish prophecy from the bible and your interpretation of that already establish prophecy proving false (false interpretation).

Of all the dates that beamup mentioned, I am conscious of 1975. Evidently a JW from our work was so convinced that the JWs were Spirit-guided, that he took the year 1975 off work, expecting to see the end of the present order of things. I assume he readjusted, as he came back to work in 1976. My question is, were the JW eldership Spirit-guided in suggesting 1975?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

It appears the cat has got Rightdivider tounge.

For any people wondering how Jesus as the "first and the last" was able to die, it was because he was NOT God. Jesus was NOT the alpha and omega (A&O), he was the "first and last" as Rev 1:17, Rev 2:8 clearly show though, but the "first and the last" in reference to Jesus and the A&O in reference to God mean different things, which I can demonstrate if someone demands it. Because Jesus was not God he was able to die, Jesus cannot be God since he died. This is irrefutable as Rightdivider just found out. Rightdivider claimed Jesus was a God man, he claimed the Jesus human part died, he was questioned by me regarding this and the reasoning to it was found faulty, he contradicted himself in a matter of minutes within a single post.

We can see that Jesus wasn't the A&O by looking at Rev 1:8 which speaks of the A&O where it shows the A&O is the same person as "the One who is and who was and who is coming"

(Revelation 1:8) “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

Now in Rev 1:4,5 it clearly shows that “the One who is and who was and who is coming", namely the A&O, is distinguished as a separate person from Jesus.

(Revelation 1:4, 5) "..John to the seven congregations that are in the province of Asia: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ.."

Jesus is clearly seen as separate from "the One who is and who was and who is coming" who we know to be the A&O in Rev 1:8, thus Jesus is not the person being spoken of in Rev 1:8, Jesus is NOT the Alpha and Omega nor the God man rightdivder claimed.

The LORD Jesus Christ has TWO natures. It's as simple as that.

You're looking for excuses instead of believing the scripture.

He didn't fail to answer you. You answered exactly like he said you would. You are filled with deceptive excuses that prevent you from taking scripture as it is written. You argue with the very words of God and would rather deny Jesus is Jehovah, while making scripture contradict itself, than accept what Jehovah has revealed to you through HIS SON.

You are so anti Tri, by brainwashing of the Watch tower, that you don't even understand the UNE!

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Seriously?

The human part, of course.

The man died and was resurrected. Just like He said that He would be.

Amen!

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;​

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, and you just told me that out of those two natures in Rev 1:17 and Rev 2:8 accordingly, were in relation to his deity, so explain how the "first and the last", Jesus deity side, died.

It clearly states the "the First and the Last" became dead, you need to explain this.

In His HUMANITY He died. He is STILL GOD.