Jehovah alone is the creator of the Universe.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 7djengo7 and Apple7,

YOU just admitted the TRUTH that Jesus was not created! Of course, you heaped a dunghill of heretical gobbledygook right on top of your admission, but, nevertheless, you admitted the TRUTH that Jesus was not created! And, in your admission, you have put yourself at odds with your fellow heretics, Dartman and NWL. See, both those guys claim that Jesus was created.
God, alone, was not created. Jesus was not created. Therefore, Jesus is God.

When two parents have a child, we do not usually speak of the child born as being created, but in a sense the word create could cover this concept. I believe that the start of Jesus is that he was conceived and born, and I do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God or Michael. I am not sure if this is part of Dartman and NWL views, and who would thus believe that sometime the Son of God or Michael was created in heaven before the earth was formed. But I do believe that the three stages of the birth, moral development and resurrection of Jesus could be termed a creative process. God took various elements of the Adamic creation and has brought to birth by his wisdom and power a new creation, consisting of Jesus and the believers. This will fulfill Psalm 8. I have included my response to Apple7 as it defines how I believe Jesus came into being, and this also runs contrary to any pre-existence view.

The incarnation was a Triune event.

I do not believe that God the Son was shrunk into the womb of Mary, but I believe that God the Father was the father of Jesus and that Mary was his mother.

Let’s review Rev 3.14…
Here we can see the contrast that is being made as the Jews chose the release of a murderer(death) over that of Jesus Christ (the very originator of Life).

I am not willing to discuss at your level of language skills. Jesus will be the source of life to all the believers when he raises them from the dead and gives them immortal life.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tigger 2]

Apple 7 wrote:

You should actually read what you google, before making yourself look foolish.

No serious student of scripture uses a modern English Webster's Dictionary when defining Biblical terms.

Speaking of looking foolish, did you not see the following in my post?

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #3205, p. 349: (Yalad, 'beget') ".... Used of God, to create."

Another Lexicon: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (BAGD): Gennao "1. beget - a. lit. become the father of .... 3. fig. bring forth, produce, cause" - pp. 154,155.

 

[glorydaz]

I believe that the start of Jesus is that he was conceived and born, and I do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God or Michael.

You have a lot of Scripture to ignore or explain away, then, don't you? :think:



Why did He say, "I came down from Heaven"?

Why did He say, "I came out from God"?

Why does Paul say, He was before all things and all things were created by Him?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings glorydaz,

You have a lot of Scripture to ignore or explain away, then, don't you? :think:

Another word you could have used is "understand" or "understand properly".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dartman]

There is no "incarnation", either stated or described.
There was a miracle which CAUSED the conception, and then a normal child birth.
12 years later, Jesus was ....... wait for it ........ 12 years old.

Scripture?

Sure!

Luke 1:30-35 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


Luke 2:39-42 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.


Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age ...

 

[Dartman]

Why did He say, "I came down from Heaven"?

Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Why did He say, "I came out from God"?

Because he did .... so did John .... and ALL of God's prophets.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Why does Paul say, He was before all things..

It's obvious from the rest of Scripture, Jesus didn't literally exist until Bethlehem.
BUT, Jesus IS before everyone else, in God's glory, in "preeminence":
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

...and all things were created by Him?

Paul was discussing "thrones, principalities, powers and dominions" that were current to Paul's epistle .... things that ARE in heaven, and ARE on earth.

Paul isn't contradicting HIMSELF or the rest of Scripture, which states beyond doubt, that Christ's GOD ... Jehovah.... created the universe;
Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.


Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.


How do you explain away these clear, simple and direct Scriptures??

 

[Bright Raven]

The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [l]heaven.

 

[Dartman]

Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thy hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison-house.
8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise unto graven images.

Acts 4:24-30 And they, when they heard it, lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, O Lord, thou that didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 who by the holy spirit, (by) the mouth of our father David thy servant, didst say, Why did the Gentiles rage, And the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against His Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever Thy hand and Thy council foreordained to come to pass.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while Thy stretchest forth Thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.

Acts 17:24-31
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Apple7]

There was a greater creative process in the development and maturing of Jesus' character as he grew in wisdom and at the start of his ministry he was revealed as full of grace and truth.
Kind regards
Trevor

Wisdom and Grace are attributes of the Third Person of The Trinity.

 

[Dartman]

Wisdom and Grace are attributes of the Third Person of The Trinity.

Says no verse ever.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Apple7,

Wisdom and Grace are attributes of the Third Person of The Trinity.

This ignores the fact that Jesus was a human, a child that grew to maturity.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[glorydaz]

Greetings glorydaz,Another word you could have used is "understand" or "understand properly".

Kind regards
Trevor

True...you have a lot of Scripture to understand properly. :thumb:

 

[Apple7]

Greetings again Apple7,This ignores the fact that Jesus was a human, a child that grew to maturity.

Kind regards
Trevor

As the God-man does not imply that He was ever created.

 

[Ktoyou]

delete

 

[Ktoyou]

Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.

this is what it says

For your Maker is your husband,

The Lord of hosts is His name;

And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;

He is called the God of the whole earth.

Show me where it say's Jehovah in any original text?

 

[Ktoyou]

Not only do the Scriptures directly state that Jehovah/YHVH God is the Creator, many of those same Scriptures identify Jesus as Jehovah's servant.

Isa 42:1-8 Behold, My servant, whom I uphold; My chosen, in whom My soul delighteth: I have put My spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
2 He will not cry, nor lift up his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed will he not break, and a dimly burning wick will he not quench: he will bring forth justice in truth.
4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set justice in the earth; and the isles shall wait for his law.
Thus saith God Jehovah, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth; He that spread abroad the earth and that which cometh out of it; He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein
6 I, Jehovah, have called thee in righteousness,

It does not say any of this in the original text. Jehovah is a made up name.

 

[Ktoyou]

Funny, you do not accept Jesus, but you think there is a Jehovah? Maybe you have the name mixed up?

 

[Apple7]

Go back to school...

Go back to school...

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #3205, p. 349: (Yalad, 'beget') ".... Used of God, to create."

If you only knew how to accurately quote from a lexicon.

Let’s help you out with your pathetic attempt at paraphrasing, by showing what is actually written in the Lexicon of your very own choosing…

“Those who maintain that this word must necessarily be taken in a physical sense, as implying generation, and that in this passage the eternal generation of Christ is taught, do not appear to have considered (besides the passages in Deut. and Jer.) the words of the apostle, 1 Cor 4:15 εν γαρ χριστω ιησου δια του ευαγγελιου εγω υμας εγεννησα (Whatever difficulty might have been found in Psalm 2:7, it is cleared away by the New Test; where we learn, that it speaks of the resurrection of Christ, when He, the eternal son of God, became the first begotten of the dead…”

Ref: Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #3205, p. 349


:cigar:

 

[Apple7]

this is what it says

For your Maker is your husband,

The Lord of hosts is His name;

And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;

He is called the God of the whole earth.

Show me where it say's Jehovah in any original text?

כִּ֤י בֹעֲלַ֙יִךְ֙ עֹשַׂ֔יִךְ יְהוָ֥ה צְבָאֹ֖ות שְׁמֹ֑ו וְגֹֽאֲלֵךְ֙ קְדֹ֣ושׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֱלֹהֵ֥י כָל־הָאָ֖רֶץ יִקָּרֵֽא׃

 

[Ktoyou]

כִּ֤י בֹעֲלַ֙יִךְ֙ עֹשַׂ֔יִךְ יְהוָ֥ה צְבָאֹ֖ות שְׁמֹ֑ו וְגֹֽאֲלֵךְ֙ קְדֹ֣ושׁ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֱלֹהֵ֥י כָל־הָאָ֖רֶץ יִקָּרֵֽא׃

well, that is a different message to me, is it not to you? Just say that then, and not the silly stuff. Like saying Jehovah