It not about a "gun culture," but a "death culture."

[aikido7]

I'm accountable for my own violence.
I haven't had a revenge fantasy since I finally learned how poor I was in being able to forgive others. I thought I was a natural at it. Turns out no. I had to learn obedience. "As we forgive those who trespass against us."
I don't understand how I scapegoat others.


DJ

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I see a lot of scapegoating against other posters on TOL (poor Mesak comes to mind). And I certainly see scapegoating every day of Muslims, gays, people who believe differently than ourselves.

It's not my place to give you my own opinion as to how to understand yourself.

I have enough trouble trying to understand myself and the world.

 

[aikido7]

While trying to follow the example of Jesus's commitment to nonviolence (and the examples of other figures of history) I can only be honest and say that I am a violent person trying to become nonviolent.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

I see a lot of scapegoating against other posters on TOL (poor Mesak comes to mind)...

From me? What are you talking about?

...And I certainly see scapegoating every day of Muslims, gays, people who believe differently than ourselves...

You want me to take responsibility for what others are doing too?

...It's not my place to give you my own opinion as to how to understand yourself...

Then why bring it up?

...I have enough trouble trying to understand myself and the world.

Agreed.


DJ

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[Dan Emanuel]

While trying to follow the example of Jesus's commitment to nonviolence (and the examples of other figures of history) I can only be honest and say that I am a violent person trying to become nonviolent.

I'm a sinner. Whenever I become aware of my sin, I focus on forgiving "those who trespass against us."


DJ

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[aikido7]

If only we would at least TRY to take the nonviolent route, first. And choose to see it as the more courageous option, I think we would be a far better nation, and a far more secure and peaceful people.

Your comment is my constant prayer.

I began to see Jesus as a profound historical voice about nonviolence.
I see myself now as a violent Christian trying to become non-violent.
I have learned non-violent communication and have used it successfully in my own life to confront potentially violent situations.

And I know now it has worked all through history. It is not always tried. And that's the problem.

After viewing the politics around the Iran agreement, most people still actually believe we have two, and only two, responses to conflict:
Give in or fight back.

That is nonsense. Humanity proves this wrong every day.

 

[aikido7]

I'm a sinner. Whenever I become aware of my sin, I focus on forgiving "those who trespass against us."


DJ

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Bless you. I certainly try to do the same.

Jesus's sage advice has helped me in many of my life situations.

I used to think others "had a problem" but I discovered I was sorely mistaken. It was ME that had the problem: projecting my own anger and hurt onto others and blaming THEM for my problems.

They didn't have a problem at all. They were doing their best to navigate through the same life that I experience. It was me that had the problem.

Jesus taught me to own it. Look at myself instead of judging or blaming others.

 

[quip]

Bumper sticker: "If guns kill people: then pencils make mistakes, cars drive off the road, and spoons make fat people, and we should abolish them!"

Alternately, pencils can write poetry and peace-treaties; cars, drive individuals to school, work, church and gun rallies; spoons....feed the starving masses; guns.........kill people. lain:

(Issue's too big for bumper sticker)

 

[PureX]

You write this drivel without any knowledge of history and pretend others speak in platitudes about warfare? you are a nut job...

What an oddly 'violent' (attack) reaction to the suggestion of peaceful conflict resolution. You don't seem to realize that you exemplify, yourself, the accusation which you are so determined to dispel.

 

[elohiym]

You are making me confused. The thread was about "gun culture."

The use of guns includes violence and in my view, a Jesus-based nonviolence.

Violence is usually excused in the American Empire if it is done against what our culture considers human expendables. The Nazis saw the Jews as expendable, just as many now feel gay sex is equally evil.

Does that seem fair to you? Do you understand my thinking and can you yourself relate it to the topic at hand?

I am a pacifist.

The thread is about murder not being the fault of a "gun culture" but a "death culture." Guns are relatively harmless, like knives. It takes a person with a certain mindset to commit murder; the focus should be on that mindset and what fosters it rather than on guns.

 

[PureX]

I am a pacifist.

The thread is about murder not being the fault of a "gun culture" but a "death culture." Guns are relatively harmless, like knives. It takes a person with a certain mindset to commit murder; the focus should be on that mindset and what fosters it rather than on guns.

This isn't exactly true. Knives do not accidentally kill people when we clean them, or when a child handles them. These machines are so fast and efficient at killing people that a child can kill themselves or someone else simply by picking one up. And we need to be realistic, here, and acknowledge this intense danger.

And because these machines are such fast and efficient killers, they also become especially dangerous in the hands of emotionally troubled adults. Rage, depression, and nihilistic grandiosity do not kill people. And yet put a firearm in the hand of someone experiencing these emotions and death could easily result. Far more so than putting a knife in their hand. So we have to acknowledge that mixing firearms with human emotions fosters very deadly results. And it's these results that we are seeing in our nation's hyper-inflated numbers of gun deaths.

So it's not just the guns, and it's not just the unstable, emotional people, it's the combination that is doing the damage.

And it's the combination that we need to address if we want to mitigate that damage.

 

[elohiym]

Knives do not accidentally kill people when we clean them, or when a child handles them.

I recall a news story of a child using a knife to slit another child's throat. Also, I have mentioned that over 12% of the murders in 2014 were committed with knives.

These machines are so fast and efficient at killing people that a child can kill themselves or someone else simply by picking one up.

While accidents may happen, the machine is relatively harmless. I'm pretty sure that more serious accidents happen with knives than with guns.

And we need to be realistic, here, and acknowledge this intense danger.

I'm not against people using gun locks. My three guns are not loaded, and I don't store ammunition in the same building with them. A knife is more dangerous to my children than my Kentucky long rifle.

And because these machines are such fast and efficient killers, they also become especially dangerous in the hands of emotionally troubled adults.

As do knives, baseball bats and other things that can be easily used to kill another person. The problem is their "emotional trouble" not the guns, knives, baseball bats or other things.

Rage, depression, and nihilistic grandiosity do not kill people. And yet put a firearm in the hand of someone experiencing these emotions and death could easily result.

Then we can't blame the gun or whatever thing they use to kill; we need to blame the culture that fosters rage, depression and nihilistic grandiosity.

So we have to acknowledge that mixing firearms with human emotions fosters very deadly results. And it's these results that we are seeing in our nation's hyper-inflated numbers of gun deaths.

What about mixing violent video games, horror movies and knives with human emotions? The knives are the problem? No, it's clearly the culture of death that is the problem.

So it's not just the guns, and it's not just the unstable, emotional people, it's the combination that is doing the damage.

If you deny them the guns somehow, why do you think they will not use a knife, or a baseball bat or something else?

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Bless you...

Thank you.

...I certainly try to do the same.

Jesus's sage advice has helped me in many of my life situations...

I pray the Our Father, as He taught us to pray. And when I pray, "And lead us not into temptation," I think that some of that is not leading us into a situation where it is too tempting to not forgive someone; to hold a grudge, or worse, to hate.

...I used to think others "had a problem" but I discovered I was sorely mistaken...

I used to think that, but I discovered I was sorely mistaken. Others do have a problem; but it's the same problem I have. My flesh is carnal, just like everybody else's. It does what it does intentionally, but not deliberately, as that requires self-consciousness and self-awareness. The way my mind tries to make me aware of what I'm doing, is to be transparently deceitful and hypocritical; transparently enough that I can see it. Once I can see it, then I can start being deliberate rather than unthinkingly intentional, which is what animals do.

...It was ME that had the problem: projecting my own anger and hurt onto others and blaming THEM for my problems...

That's part of showing yourself how hypocritical you are. That's intentional also, but still not deliberate, since you're still not aware of what you're doing.

I'm not denying you your problem; I'm suggesting that your problem is not the problem; your problem is that you can't see your problem. That's why we are all driven to hypocrisy, in the hopes that we see what we're doing clearly, rather than snooze through life, which is what we're all doing otherwise.

...They didn't have a problem at all. They were doing their best to navigate through the same life that I experience. It was me that had the problem...

You've been doing your best all along. You don't really have a choice but to do your best. Your brain takes away that choice from you; even when you know you're not trying your hardest, you are.

...Jesus taught me to own it. Look at myself instead of judging or blaming others.

We have to place blame where it belongs, and if someone commits a crime, we have to blame them for it and not something or someone else.

But we should all understand and appreciate that we are all trying our hardest to make a go of it in this life.


DJ

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[PureX]

I recall a news story of a child using a knife to slit another child's throat. Also, I have mentioned that over 12% of the murders in 2014 were committed with knives.

I don't understand why you're even bringing this up. The instances of accidental death occurring because a child picks up a knife is virtually zero. And 12% isn't particularly relevant when guns account for 70%. It's not like anyone is going to say, "Look! They're nearly equivalent!"

So why are you bringing any of this up? Why are you reaching so far and so hard for some scrap of rebuttal? What is motivating you to do this?

While accidents may happen, the machine is relatively harmless. I'm pretty sure that more serious accidents happen with knives than with guns.

You Are? I'd love to know how you come to that conclusion when a gun can kill a person with one shot, in an instant, by the slightest pressure of one finger on a trigger. While a knife requires a determined thrust, at a very specific target area, and in most instances several of them, to kill someone. I also don't see how you've come to that conclusion when the majority of violent deaths in the world are caused by firearms.

I'm not against people using gun locks. My three guns are not loaded, and I don't store ammunition in the same building with them. A knife is more dangerous to my children than my Kentucky long rifle.

The gun violence issue isn't about you.

I would note, however, that if your guns are that secure, they are also not going to be very useful in defending yourself if someone breaks into your house with ill intent, as seems to be the popular fear fantasy that fuels the insistence of gun ownership, at any cost.

As do knives, baseball bats and other things that can be easily used to kill another person. The problem is their "emotional trouble" not the guns, knives, baseball bats or other things.

Repeating this bit of dishonesty isn't going to make it any less dishonest.

No, it's clearly the culture of death that is the problem.

No, it's the "death culture" being inundated with the mechanical means to manifest itself: guns.

If you deny them the guns somehow, why do you think they will not use a knife, or a baseball bat or something else?

Some will, but most will not. Because most gun deaths could be avoided if the perpetrator had to work harder at making them happen. That extra effort; strength, speed and concentration required by most other methods of killing would slow the event down and give the victims a chance to run, or to fight back. Or enough time for the perpetrator to change his mind and stop.

 

[elohiym]

I don't understand why you're even bringing this up.

The thread is about murder, how its cause relates to a "death culture" not a "gun culture." Knives are used in murder, yet the focus seems to be irrationally on guns and the "gun culture."

The instances of accidental death occurring because a child picks up a knife is virtually zero.

But ... Knives cause more disabling injuries than any other type of hand tool. "Knives represent an important source of morbidity and mortality to people of all ages."

And 12% isn't particularly relevant when guns account for 70%. It's not like anyone is going to say, "Look! They're nearly equivalent!"

One in ten deaths isn't relevant to you. Okay. Why do you think knives have to be equivalent in your mind to deserve the same scrutiny as you demand of guns?

So why are you bringing any of this up? Why are you reaching so far and so hard for some scrap of rebuttal? What is motivating you to do this?

We are having a discussion and I am responding to your points.

I'm pretty sure that more serious accidents happen with knives than with guns.

You Are? I'd love to know how you come to that conclusion...

See Knife-related injuries treated in United States emergency departments, 1990-2008.

....when a gun can kill a person with one shot, in an instant, by the slightest pressure of one finger on a trigger.

You have to load the gun, remove the safety, aim and apply more than slight pressure to the trigger.

While a knife requires a determined thrust, at a very specific target area, and in most instances several of them, to kill someone.

A knife is easier to use than a gun. You pick it up and thrust. Nothing to load, no safety to remove and no aim necessary. Consider that more people are murdered with knives per year than with rifles and shotguns combined.

I also don't see how you've come to that conclusion when the majority of violent deaths in the world are caused by firearms.

I don't see why you are bringing up world statistics when we are discussing U.S. culture and laws specifically.

I would note, however, that if your guns are that secure, they are also not going to be very useful in defending yourself if someone breaks into your house with ill intent, as seems to be the popular fear fantasy that fuels the insistence of gun ownership, at any cost.

I don't own guns for self-defense. It's interesting that knives are used in more homicides than any of the types of guns I own.

As do knives, baseball bats and other things that can be easily used to kill another person. The problem is their "emotional trouble" not the guns, knives, baseball bats or other things.

Repeating this bit of dishonesty isn't going to make it any less dishonest.

What exactly is dishonest about my statement? Be honest.

No, it's the "death culture" being inundated with the mechanical means to manifest itself: guns.

There are billions of knives in the hands of the public but only a couple hundred million guns, and of those the rifles and shotguns are used in substantially fewer homicides than knives.

 

[quip]

But ... Knives cause more disabling injuries than any other type of hand tool. "Knives represent an important source of morbidity and mortality to people of all ages."

What percentage of those injuries occur during the commission of a violent crime vs. those involving guns?

 

[elohiym]

What percentage of those injuries occur during the commission of a violent crime vs. those involving guns?

I don't know the percentage; but I do know that significantly more people are murdered each year with knives than with rifles and shotguns combined.

 

[Quetzal]

I don't know the percentage; but I do know that significantly more people are murdered each year with knives than with rifles and shotguns combined.

Are you still suggesting that there should be a criminal background check if I need to replace my butter knife?

 

[elohiym]

I own a shotgun. According to FBI 2013 crime statistics, there were 308 murders committed with a shotgun and 1,490 murders committed with a knife or cutting instrument. Why should I be subject to a background check and training requirements in order to own a shotgun but not a knife?

 

[Quetzal]

I own a shotgun. According to FBI 2013 crime statistics, there were 308 murders committed with a shotgun and 1,490 murders committed with a knife or cutting instrument. Why should I be subject to a background check and training requirements in order to own a shotgun but not a knife?

The fact that you are unable to differentiate illustrates your inability to fully comprehend the topic.

 

[elohiym]

The fact that you are unable to differentiate illustrates your inability to fully comprehend the topic.

Says the warrior princess. :yawn: