It not about a "gun culture," but a "death culture."

[bybee]

We do have a long history in this country of viewing not just violence as a first solution to interpersonal problems and conflict, but massive violence; maximum force. A classic example that cowboy "Al" walks into the saloon, cowboy "Bob" calls him "a lowdown yell skunk", and they both jerk their guns each intending to erase the other from the face of the Earth. It's an idiotically extreme response to the conflict, but such absurd extremism has been written into the American consciousness as normal, and even heroic. And we see this extremist nonsense being expressed all the time in this country whenever we find ourselves at odds with some other culture or political system. Our first response seems always to be a desire to annihilate them from the face of the Earth. And never to 'work it out', because that's perceived as cowardice.

It's a bit of cultural insanity that we still have not yet acknowledged in ourselves, and so cannot overcome. But it is at the heart of why we are so violent compared to most other peoples of the world.

Attila the Hun? Ghengis Khan? Stalin? Hitler? Bismarck? All peoples have violent natures.

 

[patrick jane]

cowboy "Al" walks into the saloon, cowboy "Bob" calls him "a lowdown yell skunk", and they both jerk their guns each intending to erase the other from the face of the Earth.

The smell is bad enough, but a yelling skunk ?

 

[ok doser]

... then they both jerk their guns and shoot, each intending to erase the other from the face of the Earth.

in your cartoon version of how things work, wouldn't it be more effective if they jerked erasers?

 

[aikido7]

try selling that to the cambodians under pol pot

try selling that to the jews under hitler

Evil is not the problem. It is the response to it that is the problem.

How soon we forget the clear results of the Bush-Cheney invasions in the Middle East! ISIS, anyone?

Every time nonviolent protest and action was used by Jews against the Nazis during World War II it worked.

Because we live in a culture that believes "Violence Saves" and scapegoating, revenge and killing are somehow redemptive for us, we miss the truths of history that are laid down before us. And we miss the opportunity to take our faith seriously by studying Jesus's own teachings.

War criminal Adolf Eichmann admitted during his trial that Hitler's "Final Solution" was an abject failure in the Netherlands.

 

[ok doser]

Every time nonviolent protest and action was used by Jews against the Nazis during World War II it worked.

really?

it worked in poland?

it worked in the ghettos?

do tell

 

[PureX]

The smell is bad enough, but a yelling skunk ?

Yeah, spell-check just couldn't comprehend "yella". :chuckle: Must not have been written by a true Amercan.

 

[Granite]

Attila the Hun? Ghengis Khan? Stalin? Hitler? Bismarck? All peoples have violent natures.

Or maybe that's a lie we keep getting told by folks at the top of the pyramid who use us as cannon fodder and serf labor.

 

[PureX]

Attila the Hun? Ghengis Khan? Stalin? Hitler? Bismarck? All peoples have violent natures.

These 5 people out of the 50 billion or so that have lived has convinced you of this? :chuckle:

 

[aikido7]

Attila the Hun? Ghengis Khan? Stalin? Hitler? Bismarck? All peoples have violent natures.

Our underlying good intentions are too often expressed in evil ways.

We need to pay attention to Jesus's 2,000-year-old "pop psychology" :

"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

 

[ok doser]

These 5 people out of the 50 billion or so that have lived has convinced you of this? :chuckle:

how many would have satisfied you?

 

[PureX]

I don't think Jesus' kind of non-violent response to violent attack will work for the rest of us every time, or in every circumstance. But I know that it CAN work, and that it does work, sometimes. And I believe it's certainly worth being our FIRST response if that's at all possible. Unfortunately, that is not how we Americans think. Our first response is to attack with massive force and annihilate the problem, immediately and totally, if possible.

We are a very violence-prone culture.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

My feeling is that America alone subscribes to the idea that "Violence Saves."...

OK. I don't think so, but OK.

...Scapegoating, revenge and violence are seen as ways to redeem us...

Do you have a source?

...Not a very moral stance, and clearly does not work in a context of seeing God in Jesus...

If what you feel is actually true, then I agree with you, but I don't think it is true.

...I have no problem with the 2nd Amendment. I just wish it was taken more literally. The Amendment ends with the words "...a well-regulated militia." Ironically, the huge mural of the written amendment in the NRA Headquarters is missing the reference to the militia.

I don't believe this was some "accident."

We all cherry pick our reality and this is a good example.

It wasn't an accident, but was probably in response to the Supreme Court's decision which explicitly ruled that the R.K.B.A. has to do with self-defense, and has precisely nothing to do with involvement or lack thereof in any militia.

And so therefore, that is actually what the Second Amendment says, Constitutionally. It doesn't matter what you or I or the NRA thinks that it says.

It just so happens that the Supreme Court has ruled that it says what the NRA says that it says.


DJ

1.3
​

 

[Dan Emanuel]

...aikido--the only martial art that deals with one's opponent without harming them...

Interesting!


DJ

1.0
​

 

[Dan Emanuel]

...we are so violent compared to most other peoples of the world....

What's you're source for this?


DJ

1.0
​

 

[ok doser]

his fertile imagination

 

[bybee]

I don't think Jesus' kind of non-violent response to violent attack will work for the rest of us every time, or in every circumstance. But I know that it CAN work, and that it does work, sometimes. And I believe it's certainly worth being our FIRST response if that's at all possible. Unfortunately, that is not how we Americans think. Our first response is to attack with massive force and annihilate the problem, immediately and totally, if possible.

We are a very violence-prone culture.

Except, of course, for you and your superior minions?

 

[PureX]

What's you're source for this?


DJ

1.0
​

Well, there's the fact that we have been at war as a nation almost every year of our existence.

Military Conflicts in U.S. History

American Revolution (1775–1783) Great Britain forced its 13 American colonies to pay taxes but did not give them representation in the British Parliament. This and other injustices led the colonies to declare independence on July 4, 1776. Independence was achieved in 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed with Britain.

War of 1812 (1812–1815) British interference with American trade, impressment of American seamen, and “war hawks” in Congress calling for western expansion into British territory led to war. At the war's conclusion, trade issues remained unresolved, but Britain gave up some of its territorial claims on the continent.

Mexican War (1846–1848) The U.S. annexation of Texas, and its stated desire to acquire California and other Mexican territory, precipitated this war. Mexico was forced to give up two-fifths of its territory. This land eventually became the states of California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah.

Civil War (1861–1865) Economic and political rivalry between an agrarian South and an industrial North grew into a civil war fought over slavery and states' rights. Eleven states seceded from the Union to form the Confederate States of America. The Union victory led to the reunification of the country and ended slavery.

Indian Wars (colonial era to 1890) U.S. expansionism led to numerous military conflicts with the indigenous inhabitants of North America, forcing them to give up their land. The massacre at Wounded Knee, S.D., in 1890 is generally considered the last of these conflicts.

Spanish American War (1898) The U.S. supported Cuba's desire for independence from Spanish rule, and seized the opportunity to expand U.S. powers in other parts of the world. At the end of the brief conflict, Cuba gained its independence, and the U.S. gained several former Spanish territories: Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines.

World War I (1914–1918) Rivalries over power, territory, and wealth led to the “Great War.” In 1917, the U.S. joined the Allies (Britain, France, Russia, Italy, and Japan), who were at war with the Central Powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and Turkey), after German submarines began sinking unarmed ships.

World War II (1939–1945) The Axis powers—Germany, Italy, and Japan—attempted to dominate the world. The Allies (U.S., Britain, France, USSR, and others) fought to stop them. The United States entered the war in 1941, after Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor. Germany surrendered in 1945, and Japan surrendered later that same year, after the U.S. dropped the atomic bomb on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Korean War (1950–1953) Communist North Korea, supported by China, invaded non-communist South Korea. UN forces, principally made up of U.S. troops, fought successfully to protect South Korea. The Korean War was the first armed conflict in the global struggle between democracy and communism, called the cold war.

Bay of Pigs (1961) The U.S. orchestrated the invasion, an unsuccessful attempt by Cuban exiles to overthrow Fidel Castro's communist regime in Cuba.

Vietnam War (1961–1973) In 1955, communist North Vietnam invaded non-communist South Vietnam in an attempt to unify the country and impose communist rule. The United States joined the war on the side of South Vietnam in 1961, but withdrew combat troops in 1973. In 1975 North Vietnam succeeded in taking control of South Vietnam.

Dominican Republic (1965) President Lyndon Johnson sent marines and troops to quash a leftist uprising in the Dominican Republic, fearing the island nation would follow in the footsteps of Cuba and turn communist.

Lebanon (1982–1984) U.S. troops formed part of a multinational peacekeeping force to help the fragile Lebanese government maintain power.

Grenada (1983) President Reagan invaded the Caribbean nation of Grenada to overthrow its socialist government, which had close ties with Cuba.

Panama (1989) President George H.W. Bush invaded Panama and overthrew Panamanian dictator and drug-smuggler Manuel Noriega.

Gulf War (1991) Iraq invaded Kuwait, and a U.S.-led multinational force came to Kuwait's aid and expelled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's forces.

Somalia (1993) A U.S.-led multinational force attempted to restore order to war-torn Somalia so that food could be delivered and distributed within the famine-stricken country.

Bosnia (1994–1995) During the Bosnian civil war, which began shortly after the country declared independence in 1992, the U.S. launched air strikes on Bosnia to prevent “ethnic cleansing,” primarily by Serbs against Bosnians. The U.S. became a part of NATO's peacekeeping force in the region.

Kosovo (1999) Yugoslavia's province of Kosovo erupted into violence in the spring of 1999. A U.S.-led NATO force intervened with air strikes after Slobodan Milosevic's Serbian forces uprooted the population and embarked on the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo's ethnic Albanian population.

Global War on Terror (2001– ) In the immediate aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, President George Bush launched the Global War on Terrorism—which has become the longest period of continuous war in U.S. history. The United Kingdom, several NATO countries, and other nations have participated to eliminate al-Qada and other militants groups.

Afghanistan (2001–2014) The Taliban government harbored Osama bin Laden and the al-Qaeda terrorist group, responsible for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States. After Afghanistan refused to turn over Bin Laden, the U.S. and UN coalition forces invaded. The Taliban government was ousted and many terrorist camps in Afghanistan were destroyed. U.S. and NATO troops remain in Afghanistan to support its fragile new government.

Iraq War (2003–2010) The U.S. and Great Britain invaded and toppled the government of dictator Saddam Hussein. Troops remain in Iraq to combat the insurgency that formed after Hussein's defeat.

War Against the Islamic State (ISIS) (2014—) The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), also called Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), has terrorized large swaths of Iraq and Syria in its drive to establish an Islamic state in the Middle East ruled by strict shariah law. The militant group is made up of fundamentalist Sunni Muslims and foreign jihadists. In September 2014, President Barack Obama authorized airstrikes against ISIS in Syria. He was clear that he does not plan to deploy ground troops in the fight against ISIS.

 

[PureX]

Except, of course, for you and your superior minions?

I have never physically attacked anyone, and the one time I was personally attacked, I struggled and escaped. I could easily have been shot because the attacker had a gun. But I don't think it was loaded. (I didn't have time to think about that when it happened.) That's all I can tell you about my own propensity for violence.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Well, there's the fact that we have been at war as a nation almost every year of our existence.

We have not been at war since W.W.I.I. Everything since then has been police action. And why so much police action? It's not because of us.


DJ

1.0
​

 

[PureX]

We have not been at war since W.W.I.I. Everything since then has been police action. And why so much police action? It's not because of us.

Those were wars, too, but we engaged in them without any intention of winning them. So we lost. And it should be a lesson to us never to engage in warfare "defensively" again (meaning without the intention of winning).