ECT It makes sense to observe God's Law

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rather, your MAD theology tells you to ignore Christ's words as inapplicable to you



Whatever his motivation/reasoning - it doesn't change what he said. Nor is this the only place where Paul confirms God's Law in his own life and in the Christian's life. Example:

Acts 21:20-26 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.​

We see here Paul's endorsement for the Mosaic Covenants in the life of the Jew, even under the New Covenant. These are still very much applicable.

Gentiles are treated differently here - neither Paul nor Peter endorse the idea that gentiles are required to embrace the Old Covenant and be physically circumcised (their heart must be however). Instead they direct them to follow the Noahide Covenant. This is not, however, because there is a different Gospel - both are saved by Christ under the same New Covenant. Rather, the reason is because the New Covenant does not invalidate God's previous Covenants.

Of course, the New Covenant is really an extension of the Abrahamic Covenant. Hence Paul says -

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

So you see you are wrong to separate gentiles from Israel; the promises of the New Covenant, the promises of Christ's Gospel, are really the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. Israel is the natural recipient of these promises - while gentiles are as wild vines that have been grafted on and thereby become fellow heirs and partakers of God's promises.

Now, where does God's Law fit into the New Covenant you may ask? It is written on the believer's heart:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]” declares the Lord. 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”


Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Cor 3:4-6 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

So we see here, the New Covenant was promised to Israel, and it was promised to them because of God's Covenant with Abraham. Israel is Abrahams natural descendent and natural heir to the promises of God. However, if you belong to Christ, you are also considered to be of Abraham's seed; we are grafted onto Israel, the natural heir. Furthermore, under the New Covenant, we are told that God's Law will be written on our hearts. Obviously, then, God's Law is still very much important the believer - whether gentile or jew.


Paul says something interesting in another place that may help shed some light on the seeming contradiction between the above and the fact that neither Peter or Paul endorsed the idea of the gentiles getting circumcised and embracing the Mosaic Covenant.

1 Cor 9:19-23 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.​

See here: he distinguishes between the Mosaic Law and God's Law/Christ's Law! This is an important, but often missed distinction. This is expounded on a bit in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:5-10 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’”[a] 8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​

The Mosaic Law was good and taught right from wrong, but if you approached it purely as a list of do's and dont's - you missed the Spirit of the Law. That is to say - you lacked an understanding of God's will for us. He allowed for many things under the law that he didn't like - such as divorce and sacrifice. He also didn't force people to live as saints under the law. But for one who pursued the truth and God's will, they would discover the Spirit of the Law - those underlying principles and values that God cares about, that we as Christians should live by.



Mind the difference between the Law and God's Law in Romans 7. Note what he says at the end:

Romans 7:21-25 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.​



Do you have God's Law written on your heart?


I agree with your assessment.

LA
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
Only if they obeyed with understanding and a circumcised heart. The Law permits divorce - so by the letter of the Law one may do so. But you are foolish if you think, therefore, that it is ever God's will that any be divorced. "What God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Matthew 19:6)

The Law also commands for sacrifices when one sins; but it is not God's will that you sin and make sacrifices. Indeed; he even rejected the sacrifices for the people were so corrupt (Isaiah 1)

The Law also commands that justice be done. However, God would prefer mercy and grace over justice. Hence David was not put to death as the Law demands.

So you see - simply following the commands doesn't mean you are doing God's will. You need discernment and understanding when approaching the Law so that you may learn God's will.
If you ARE following God's commands you ARE doing the will of God. That which God wants for you is spelled out in the commands. Otherwise there would be no commands.

As for divorce, God hates divorce and at the same time Jesus said there is a legitimate reason for divorce. Not that a person should get divorced or use it as an excuse to be or get divorced, but do you remember what it is?
 

csuguy

Well-known member
I agree with most of what you said but not that part.

There is no Mosaic Covenant in existence today.

Christs death ended it regardless of what they did or do after Christs death.

LA

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

Also see how Paul confirms the Old Covenant for the Jew here:
Acts 21:18-26 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.​
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
I've posted your direct quotes from what Paul said and you've ignored them or are trying to neutralize them with other Scriptures, including his own. That's because first and foremost you're a leftist, and as a leftist you're happy with a postmodern Mexican Standoff with God's Word, as if it were merely a philosophy or history textbook over which people could argue varying interpretations and never be sure in the end which one is right. That is your element; it is not mine. The Bible is the Voice of God to man. We either believe that or we do not. I treat it as such. You do not. Our discussion ends here...but before you go off and say "See? Another MAD ends an argument because he won't address the Bible!" you are the one who seeks to reduce the Bible to a mere book with no absolute, knowable truths. Your post above proves it.


You are wrong, and you give excuses for being unable to address the points raised in a biblical manner.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​

Also see how Paul confirms the Old Covenant for the Jew here:
Acts 21:18-26 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.​

The key word is covenant.

The law covenant is abolished.

LA
 

csuguy

Well-known member
If you ARE following God's commands you ARE doing the will of God. That which God wants for you is spelled out in the commands. Otherwise there would be no commands.

As for divorce, God hates divorce and at the same time Jesus said there is a legitimate reason for divorce. Not that a person should get divorced or use it as an excuse to be or get divorced, but do you remember what it is?

You misunderstand the purpose of the commands. The Law was given to hold us accountable and bring condemnation for sin. The Law demands death for sin.

Yet that is not God's will; he wants us to live. Mercy & grace are far better than Justice.

As for divorce he says-

Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”​

Of course, even if one divorces when sexual immorality occurs - they are still not doing God's will. Just because you are permitted to do something doesn't mean it is good to do.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
The key word is covenant.

The law covenant is abolished.

LA

As Jesus says in Matthews 5 - no its not. He didn't come to abolish it. Not the least letter of it shall disappear before all is finished. Hence Paul underwent the purification ritual to demonstrate that he still supported the Mosaic Law.

The Old Covenant maybe obsolete; but that doesn't mean it is gone just yet. Not until all is complete.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
You misunderstand the purpose of the commands. The Law was given to hold us accountable and bring condemnation for sin. The Law demands death for sin.

Yet that is not God's will; he wants us to live. Mercy & grace are far better than Justice.

As for divorce he says-

Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”​

Of course, even if one divorces when sexual immorality occurs - they are still not doing God's will. Just because you are permitted to do something doesn't mean it is good to do.
Remember, the commands of God in the Law are for our good. The Law is good. God's commands are about life, not death.

Jesus observed and taught the Law.

Do you believe a person can obey God's command and in that command that they are obeying be outside of God's will?

If a person is breaking a command of God, in that they are outside of God's will.

If a person knows that they are keeping Jesus' command regarding divorce, are you simply saying you would convince them they are not?

It may not be black and white. But God's Law is.

Would you say that divorce was not God's plan from the beginning? I would. And God's Law and Jesus' command or position (not just an opinion) about divorce are not outside of God's will they are God's will.

We have to make decisions. But what decisions do we make?

As individuals we forgive sin or protect those who have sinned, while respectfully and in a godly manner explaining what they have done against us or against God if God allows. With God sin does not go unpunished. But that does not mean we need to make allowance for sin or punish people for sin when they do. God corrects us. If we have opportunity we should turn people to what is right in God's eyes.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Remember, the commands of God in the Law are for our good. The Law is good. God's commands are about life, not death.

Jesus observed and taught the Law.

Do you believe a person can obey God's command and in that command that they are obeying be outside of God's will?

If a person is breaking a command of God, in that they are outside of God's will.

If a person knows that they are keeping Jesus' command regarding divorce, are you simply saying you would convince them they are not?

It may not be black and white. But God's Law is.

Would you say that divorce was not God's plan from the beginning? I would. And God's Law and Jesus' command or position (not just an opinion) about divorce are not outside of God's will they are God's will.

We have to make decisions. But what decisions do we make?

As individuals we forgive sin or protect those who have sinned, while respectfully and in a godly manner explaining what they have done against us or against God if God allows. With God sin does not go unpunished. But that does not mean we need to make allowance for sin or punish people for sin when they do. God corrects us. If we have opportunity we should turn people to what is right in God's eyes.

The Law demands death for sin. There is no forgiveness in it. Yet God forgives and wants us to forgive. This should tell you that your understanding of the Mosaic Law in relation to God's will is incorrect.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned
God's Law demands death for sin. There is no forgiveness in it. Yet God forgives. This should tell you that your understanding of the Mosaic Law in relation to God's will is incorrect.
Sin and death were before the Law. God's Law demands righteousness.

Do you remember the things of the Law that Jesus said ought not to be left undone?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
We should keep in mind that the law is temporary. This includes the ten instructions spoken at Mt. Sinai.
 

csuguy

Well-known member
Sin and death were before the Law. God's Law demands righteousness.

Do you remember the things of the Law that Jesus said ought not to be left undone?


Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 7:7-13 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
 

Jacob

BANNED
Banned

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 7:7-13 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
If the Law has been done away with it is pretty difficult to understand these scriptures as applying to us or having application to us.
 
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