ECT It makes sense to observe God's Law

[csuguy]

All of God's Law is moral. God is the moral law giver and the law He gave is moral. You are just talking about things you don't like.

Every part of the law is important, ever letter.

You are speaking of the Spirit of the Law or rather the spirit of the Law as compared with the letter. It is only man's letters, not the scriptures, that people go astray from the truth on.

It is wrong to say that there is the Law of Moses and then there is a different Law that is God's Law instead of the Law of Moses being God's Law.

Understand the intent of the Law. Understand that about which the Law speaks. Don't discard God's Law in order to find out what God's Law says.

If you live by the Spirit you are not under the Law. But this somehow does not mean you are disobedient.

The distinction between the law and God's Law, between the letter and the Spirit of the Law, is not my invention; that is what the NT scriptures teach.

1 Cor 9:19-23 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.​

 

[Jacob]

The distinction between the law and God's Law, between the letter and the Spirit of the Law, is not my invention; that is what the NT scriptures teach.

1 Cor 9:19-23 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.​

You confuse the letter or detail of the Law with being under the Law. There is nothing wrong with the Law. We just need to understand it rightly.

 

[csuguy]

You confuse the letter or detail of the Law with being under the Law. There is nothing wrong with the Law. We just need to understand it rightly.

You do see that Paul distinguishes the two, right? In the same breath he says both that he is not under the Law but is under God's Law.

I never said there was something wrong with the Mosaic Law; it is holy. But when people practice it blindly, with uncircumcised hearts, then it becomes an abomination to the Lord - as demonstrated in Isaiah 1. The problem with the Mosaic Law is not the Law itself - but people. Following the Mosaic Law doesn't bring righteousness - only condemnation when you fail to follow it. That's why the Law was given - to hold people accountable.

Hence there is no reason to be circumcised and follow the letter; it won't save you. What is important is the Spirit of the Law - understanding and living by God's Will.

 

[Jacob]

You do see that Paul distinguishes the two, right? In the same breath he says both that he is not under the Law but is under God's Law.

I never said there was something wrong with the Mosaic Law; it is holy. But when people practice it blindly, with uncircumcised hearts, then it becomes an abomination to the Lord - as demonstrated in Isaiah 1. The problem with the Mosaic Law is not the Law itself - but people. Following the Mosaic Law doesn't bring righteousness - only condemnation when you fail to follow it. That's why the Law was given - to hold people accountable.

Hence there is no reason to be circumcised and follow the letter; it won't save you. What is important is the Spirit of the Law - understanding and living by God's Will.

God's Law involves God's commands, whether a person chooses to obey them or not. If you choose not to obey them then is that a heart issue/matter?

 

[csuguy]

God's Law involves God's commands, whether a person chooses to obey them or not. If you choose not to obey them then is that a heart issue/matter?

Understanding God's Law means understanding the underlying principles, values, and reasoning behind the Commands - and thus understanding how/why/when/where the commands are applicable.

No - not every OT command is applicable to us today; we don't need sacrifices, we don't need to eat Kosher, we don't have a levitical priesthood to tithe too, etc.

 

[Jacob]

Understanding God's Law means understanding the underlying principles, values, and reasoning behind the Commands - and thus understanding how/why/when/where the commands are applicable.

No - not every OT command is applicable to us today; we don't need sacrifices, we don't need to eat Kosher, we don't have a levitical priesthood to tithe too, etc.

We don't always know why we are to obey any particular command, but if the command is from God what would be a good reason to disobey or delay?

As for circumcision or uncircumcision, what matters is the commands of God.

 

[csuguy]

We don't always know why we are to obey any particular command, but if the command is from God what would be a good reason to disobey or delay?

As for circumcision or uncircumcision, what matters is the commands of God.

You need to study the NT some more; gentile believers are neither required or encouraged to be circumcised.

And if you don't understand something - study, pray, and debate so that you may find the truth.

 

[Jacob]

You need to study the NT some more; gentile believers are neither required or encouraged to be circumcised.

I think I just stated that in my post.

The verse is 1 Corinthians 7:19.

I am circumcised. I'm not going to tell God it was not His command.

 

[csuguy]

I think I just stated that in my post.

The verse is 1 Corinthians 7:19.

I am circumcised. I'm not going to tell God it was not His command.

It is the requirement of the Old Covenant that all men under it be circumcised, a command of God. If you think that all Old Covenant commands are moral and should be followed - then you must advocate circumcision as part of it. But then you will be in contradiction with the NT.

 

[Jacob]

It is the requirement of the Old Covenant that all men under it be circumcised, a command of God. If you think that all Old Covenant commands are moral and should be followed - then you must advocate circumcision as part of it. But then you will be in contradiction with the NT.

Remember, Timothy WAS circumcised by Paul, but Titus was not. My understanding is that it would have compromised the gospel. In any case it was not required of him.

 

[csuguy]

Remember, Timothy WAS circumcised by Paul, but Titus was not. My understanding is that it would have compromised the gospel. In any case it was not required of him.

Then you agree - God's Commands were given with reasoning and purpose. One must understand these to know how to apply the commands to one's own life; and in cases one may depart from the letter of the law while maintaining the Spirit of the Law.

 

[Jacob]

Then you agree - God's Commands were given with reasoning and purpose. One must understand these to know how to apply the commands to one's own life; and in cases one may depart from the letter of the law while maintaining the Spirit of the Law.

The discussion of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and also the Spirit of God is different from the discussion about whether or not one should obey God, obey God's commands, obey the law, or get circumcised or have their son circumcised.

 

[csuguy]

The discussion of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law and also the Spirit of God is different from the discussion about whether or not one should obey God, obey God's commands, obey the law, or get circumcised or have their son circumcised.

If the letter of the Law is to be followed, then Titus should have been circumcised - and every other believer.

However, we don't - and the NT doesn't demand or encourage it - because gentiles don't need to be put under the Old Covenant to be part of the New. They should still study and learn to follow God's Law; but this doesn't include everything from the Mosaic Law - such as circumcision of the flesh.

 

[Jacob]

If the letter of the Law is to be followed, then Titus should have been circumcised - and every other believer.

However, we don't - and the NT doesn't demand or encourage it - because gentiles don't need to be put under the Old Covenant to be part of the New. They should still study and learn to follow God's Law; but this doesn't include everything from the Mosaic Law - such as circumcision of the flesh.

It doesn't not include it either.

 

[csuguy]

It doesn't not include it either.

The key to understanding why some are circumcised in the NT and others are not is to understand that the Mosaic Covenant was not invalidated by the establishment of the New Covenant. Hence Jews still have the Mosaic Covenant and must keep all of it. Gentiles, however, are not required to be under the Mosaic Law. Rather - they should study it to learn God's will so that they may do it.

 

[Jacob]

The key to understanding why some are circumcised in the NT and others are not is to understand that the Mosaic Covenant was not invalidated by the establishment of the New Covenant. Hence Jews still have the Mosaic Covenant and must keep all of it. Gentiles, however, are not required to be under the Mosaic Law. Rather - they should study it to learn God's will so that they may do it.

You are saying Jews who are believers are under God's Law but Gentiles who are believers are not? To observe God's Law, in my understanding is not the same as to be under it (to be under the Law in the sense of condemnation rather than in the sense of being born under it as Jesus was signifying His nationality and relation to God's Law, God's people, and God's commands).

That is not what I believe.

Remember, the Jews (or rather, Israel or the Israelites) were given God's Law so that they and it would be a blessing to the nations.

 

[csuguy]

You are saying Jews who are believers are under God's Law but Gentiles who are believers are not? To observe God's Law, in my understanding is not the same as to be under it (to be under the Law in the sense of condemnation rather than in the sense of being born under it as Jesus was signifying His nationality and relation to God's Law, God's people, and God's commands).

That is not what I believe.

Remember, the Jews (or rather, Israel or the Israelites) were given God's Law so that they and it would be a blessing to the nations.

Both are under God's Law - we must all do God's will. The question isn't God's Law, but the Mosaic Law - which even permits things that God doesn't like (divorce, for instance).

Living by the letter of the Law doesn't mean you are living according to God's will.

 

[Jacob]

Both are under God's Law - we must all do God's will. The question isn't God's Law, but the Mosaic Law - which even permits things that God doesn't like (divorce, for instance).

Living by the letter of the Law doesn't mean you are living according to God's will.

Do you remember that Jesus spoke about Moses and divorce and Jesus spoke about divorce?

Obeying God's commands means you are doing the will of God.

 

[csuguy]

Do you remember that Jesus spoke about Moses and divorce and Jesus spoke about divorce?

Obeying God's commands means you are doing the will of God.

Only if they obeyed with understanding and a circumcised heart. The Law permits divorce - so by the letter of the Law one may do so. But you are foolish if you think, therefore, that it is ever God's will that any be divorced. "What God has joined together, let no one separate.” (Matthew 19:6)

The Law also commands for sacrifices when one sins; but it is not God's will that you sin and make sacrifices. Indeed; he even rejected the sacrifices for the people were so corrupt (Isaiah 1)

The Law also commands that justice be done. However, God would prefer mercy and grace over justice. Hence David was not put to death as the Law demands.

So you see - simply following the commands doesn't mean you are doing God's will. You need discernment and understanding when approaching the Law so that you may learn God's will.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The key to understanding why some are circumcised in the NT and others are not is to understand that the Mosaic Covenant was not invalidated by the establishment of the New Covenant. Hence Jews still have the Mosaic Covenant and must keep all of it. Gentiles, however, are not required to be under the Mosaic Law. Rather - they should study it to learn God's will so that they may do it.

I agree with most of what you said but not that part.

There is no Mosaic Covenant in existence today.

Christs death ended it regardless of what they did or do after Christs death.

LA