Isaiah 7 study; "Behold the young woman is pregnant..."

[Elia]

So you're telling me that no Jews believe Ps 110 to be messianic? I beg to differ:

The passage in the New Testament (Matt 22:40-46) relates this as a conversation stopper for the religious smart guys of Jesus' day. So apparently they thought Jesus interpreted the passage correctly--that David was speaking of the messiah, his offspring. It would have been quite easy for them to answer Jesus if they believed those verses DID NOT refer to the messiah--they would just say so as you have done. But they couldn't, for the obvious reason that they, too, thought the verses referred to the messiah.

Bs"d

That reasoning of course only works if you believe that that conversation actually took place.

In order to believe that, you first have to believe in the NT, which I don't.

The Midrash on Psalms (Book One, 18, 29) states plainly that the Messiah is addressed and told to sit on God’s right hand in Psalm 110:1.

Interesting, but we don't take the Midrash literally.

Here is what Nachmanides in a debate with Christians said about the Midrash:

In the middle ages, in 1263 CE, the Jewish sage rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, aka the Ramban, was forced to defend Judaism against the Christian religion by King James of Aragonia, in Barcelona. The king attended every session of the dispute, and regularly joined in on the Christian side. Afterwards the king considered the Ramban the winner of the dispute, and he rewarded him with 300 gold coins. But when the Ramban published the disputation in writing, he barely escaped execution and was exiled. During the disputation his opponent, a Jewish convert to Christianity, brought a Midrash in which it is written that at the time when the Temple was destroyed, the messiah was born. Upon this the Ramban answered: "We have three kind of books: The first is the Bible, (the Only Testament) and all of us believe in it in perfect faith. The second is what is called the Talmud, which is the commentary on the commandments of the Torah. There are 613 commandments in the Torah, and there is not one of them which is not explained in the Talmud. We firmly believe in the Talmud's explanations of the commandments. We have a third book called Midrash, meaning "sermons". It is just as if the bishop would rise and deliver a sermon, and one of the listeners whom the sermon pleased recorded it. With regard to this book of sermons, if one believes in it; it is well and good, and if one does not believe in it, no harm will come to him. We have sages who wrote that the messiah will not be born until the time near the end, at which time he will come to redeem us from the exile. Therefore, I do not believe the statement of this book that he was born on the day of the destruction of the Temple. We also call the Midrash the book of hagada, that is to say, it is nothing more than matters which one person tells another." Until here the quote of the big Jewish sage the Ramban.

The Midrash Rabbah, Genesis LXXXV, 9 affirms that the staff mentioned in Psalm 110:2 refers to the royal Messiah.

I have news for you: In contradistinction to your savior, king David WAS a royal messiah.

It's interesting that you give Jeremiah as a messianic passage. It seems to confirm that the messiah would be a healer--Jer 33:6.
It also confirms the need for cleansing from iniquity--Jer 33:8. How would that happen except through a sacrifice; the spotless lamb of God, maybe?

God is not a lamb, so God is not going to let Himself be murdered by His creatures in order to be able to forgive them.

Easy to say, but does it fit with the rest of the passage? Not really. It seems to accentuate a difference between the other parts of the passage and that one verse. All the rest say "He shall", and that one says "Now he shall". I agree that it refers to the messiah's coming, but it refers to it in a way that is different from the other parts of the verses around it.

Have you considered that perhaps it means that many of those things will happen eventually, but that one thing will happen "NOW" or earlier than those other things? Like there's a gap of, say, 2000 years?

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

Potentially, then, the "NOW" actually seems to reinforce the idea of a gap.

Don't look at me--I'm not the one that quoted the "lowly" translation.
King Solomon was a preacher (Ecc 1:1).
And if you don't reject the obvious messianic message in Is 61:1, you can see that the messiah is both a preacher and a healer.

But you said you wouldn't believe in him until AFTER he had fulfilled the prophecy to bring peace. But that suggests that He's not the messiah until after he fulfills everything. Meaning He has to already have brought peace while is trying to bring peace. (Catch-22 again)

Nonsense. The messiah will be the messiah, but we will recognize him by him fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

So now you're saying that because some people don't recognize the messiah as king, then he must not be the messiah.

Of course I'm not saying that. You're making up stories.

The only thing I'm saying is that your argument of: "Everybody uses the Christian calendar, therefore he was the messiah", doesn't hold water.

He's MY king!

Correction: He is your IMAGINARY king.

He is not a king, and he never was a king.

And he has been the king of all the Christians (called by His name) since he rose from the dead. Your facts are a little lacking in truth.

What you call "facts" is too much imagination.

Obvious to whom? Maybe not so obvious to some: http://juchre.org/talmud/sukkah/sukkah3.htm#52a

https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/is53

Your messiah sounds so powerful--maybe even as powerful as YHWH!!!

The problems with the pagans is that they start worshipping the creation in stead of the Creator.

All the power of the messiah will come from God. He will not be as powerfull as God, nobody is.

Only God is to be worshipped, not any of His creations, therefore also no human beings.

Then why don't Jews today perform the sacrifices commanded in the Tanach?

Because those sacrifices may only be done in the Temple, and we don't have a temple right now.

But the prophets tell us that when the Third Temple is build, the animal sacrifices will be reinstated again.

The whole point of the messiah's coming was to benefit Israel--not just some dead guy from 3000 years ago, but also Israel when the messiah comes. If you aren't part of that fulfillment when he comes, then what benefit do you receive?

All the benefits he will bring, like eternal global peace, prosperity, knowledge of God, and more.

Why do you hope in a messiah that won't do anything for you? The messiah, even if you crop and distort the prophecies to the ones you've listed, still must have subjects before he can be a king. If everybody believes like you do, then the messiah will be despised and rejected. There's that catch-22 again. If the messiah has no subjects when you hear about him, and you won't be his subject until he has subjects, then he can't be your king!

He will make himself king, recognized or not. Many people in Israel became king, without being recognized as the messiah.
You see problems where there are none.

That's my point--If Jesus spoke about the end times, and those prophecies haven't come true yet, then you can't condemn him as a false prophet.

He did NOT speak about the end time, he spoke about his generation:

Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.

In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..

Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.

This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ….. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." -----See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .

This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.



In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!

From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet.

I thought we went over this already. Some things were to come about in that generation, and some things were obviously for a later time.

And the things that were supposed to happen in his generation, like him coming back with pomp and power, didn't happen.

It does if you are required to believe the prophecies of those that wrote the Tanach and you decide to disregard some of them in favor of the ones you like.

Please tell me which prophecies I discarded.

Not if he's telling the truth, that He and YHWH are one!

If anybody says the Christian messiah is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.



Then you are stuck with the fact that when the Christian messiah prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.



Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???



Even in heaven the Christian messiah is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.

So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???



When the Christian messiah was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46

So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???



Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”

Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???



Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?

If so, who resurrected him?

Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.

And here again is proof of his kingship, from your own hands--that he has 2 billion people that are following him.

Thanks for proving my point for me!!!

So the fact that the Islam is rapidly on its way to overtake Christianity that proofs that Mohammed was a prophet of God??


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Elia]

I think you must be excluding all those that disprove your position, which is usually called "begging the question". It works like this: I don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the messiah, because I only believe those prophecies that he didn't fulfil to be messianic."

Bs"d

That's the job of the Christians, to come up with the messianic prophecies that he did fulfil.

So go ahead, you have the floor. Please prove to me that he was the messiah.

Bs"d

No reaction? Well, I usually don't get any.

Because there is no proof what so ever that he was the messiah.

Only wishful thinking.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

No reaction? Well, I usually don't get any.

Because there is no proof what so ever that he was the messiah.

Only wishful thinking.

No reaction? Of course you don't get any reaction--you refuse to consider any reaction you get as legitimate reaction. I can understand why Jesus said to the pharisees that he came to make the blind see and those that see, blind, Jn 9:39-41.

I mentioned 2 passages, Is 52/53 and Ps 110, one of which he fulfilled (Is 52/53) and one that he used to show his superiority to David. You say those aren't messianic prophecies--that only Christians believe those to be messianic prophecies. When I pointed out that some Jews see those as messianic, you said that it's just one person's opinion (like the Midrash). But it's not just one person's opinion. I'll provide a list of others that treat Is 52/53 as messianic, but I'll do it in separate posts to show you the response you seem to be missing.

Again, I'm not saying every Jew believes this--just you by your lonesome would be able to refute me by your disbelief. But I am saying some Jews believe this. And if some Jews believe this, then it isn't just a Christian perversion of the texts. And if it isn't just a Christian perversion of the texts, then there may be truth in the interpretation. And if there is truth in the interpretation, your interpretation may be wrong. And if your interpretation is wrong, you may be rejecting your messiah. And it you are rejecting your messiah, he will reject you.

And if your messiah rejects you, what hope do you have???????

 

[Derf]

1. Jonathan ben Uzziel’s Targums, on this passage dating from the 1st century C.E., begins Isaiah 52:13 by immediately identifying the suffering servant as the Messiah saying,

“Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper.”[2]

 

[Derf]

2. The Babylonian Talmud states:

The Rabanan say that Messiah’s name is The Suffering Scholar of Rabbi’s House (or The Leper Scholar) for it is written, “Surely He hath born our grief and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.”[3]

Here, the Babylonian Talmud applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

3. The Babylonian Talmud also states:

The Messiah—what is his name?…The Rabbis say, The leprous one; those of the house of Rabbi [4] say, The sick one, as it is said, “Surely he hath borne our sicknesses.”[5]

Here, the Babylonian Talmud also applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

4. In Midrash Siphré, we find the following:

R. Yosé the Galilaean said, Come forth and learn the righteousness of the King Messiah and the reward of the just from the first man who received but one commandment, a prohibition, and transgressed it: consider how many deaths were inflicted upon himself, upon his own generations, and upon those that followed them, till the end of all generations. Which attribute is greater, the attribute of goodness, or the attribute of vengeance? He answered, The attribute of goodness is the greater, and the attribute of vengeance is less; how much more, then will the King Messiah, who endures affliction and pains for the transgressors (as it is written, “He was wounded,” etc.) justify all generations! And this is what is meant when it is said, “And the Lord made the iniquity of us all meet upon him.”[6]

Here, the Midrash Siphré applies Isaiah 53:5 and Isaiah 53:6 to the Messiah. The argument is: If the transgression of Adam (the first man who was given one prohibition) resulted in such consequences upon all of his descendants (“all generations”), and since the attribute of goodness is greater and more powerful than vengeance, how much more will the sufferings of the Messiah justify all generations. This argument is strikingly similar to that made by Rav Shaul (the apostle Paul) in Romans 5:15-19.

 

[Derf]

5. In Midrash Thanhuma, we find the following:

R. Nahman say, The word “man” in the passage, every man a head of the house of his fathers (Num. i. 4), refers to the Messiah the son of David, as it is written, “Behold the man whose name is Zemah” (the branch); where Yonathan interprets, Behold the man Messiah (Zech. Vi. 12): and so it is said, “A man of pains and known to sickness.”[7]

Here, the Midrash Thanhuma applies Isaiah 53:3 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

6. In Midrash P’siqtha, it states:

The Holy One brought forth the soul of the Messiah, and said to him…Art thou willing to…redeem my sons…? He replied, I am. God replied, If so, thou must take upon thyself chastisements in order to wipe away their iniquity, as it is written, “Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.” The Messiah answered, I will take them upon me gladly.

Here, the Midrash P’siqtha applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah, and clearly states that Messiah’s sufferings were necessary to wipe away the iniquity of all people.

 

[Derf]

7. In Midrash Konen, we find the following:

The fifth mansion in Paradise…there dwell Messiah son of David, and Elijah, and Messiah son of Ephraim. There also is the “litter of the wood of Lebanon”…and within it Messiah son of David who loveth Jerusalem. Elijah takes him by the head, lays him down in his bosom, holds him, and says, “Bear thou sufferings and wounds wherewith the Almighty doth chastise thee for Israel’s sin;” and so it is written, He was wounded for our transgression, bruised for our iniquities, until the time when the end should come.[8]

Here, the Midrash Konen applies Isaiah 53:5 to the Messiah. In this passage, we also see the concept of two Messiahs. This passage clearly distinguishes between the suffering servant (the Messiah) and Israel, stating that the Messiah would suffer for Israel’s sin.

 

[Derf]

8. In referring to this passage, Bamidbar Rabba states: “Like Moses, Messiah will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again.”[9]

 

[Derf]

9. Concerning Isaiah 52:13, Yalkut II states: “Messiah…He shall be higher than Abraham.[10]

 

[Derf]

10. The Musaf prayer for Yom Kippur was written in the 7th century. Part of this prayer (the Machzor) states:

Our righteous anointed[11] is departed from us; horror hath seized us, and we have none to justify us. He hath borne the yoke of our iniquities, and our transgressions, and was wounded because of our transgressions. He beareth our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time the Eternal will create Him (the Messiah) as a new creature. O bring Him up from the circle of the earth. Raise him up from Seir, to assemble us the second time by the power of Yinon.[12]

Here, the Musaf prayer applies Isaiah 53 to the Messiah and states that he had departed. This presumes that he previously came, and had already suffered on behalf of the Jewish people, bearing their sins on his shoulders. The prayer asks earnestly for Messiah to return a second time.

 

[Derf]

11. The Zohar, thought to have been written either by Shi’on ben Yohai in the 2nd century or by a Spanish rabbi in the 13th century, states:

There is in the garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the sons of sickness: this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for transgressions of the law: and this is that which is written, “Surely our sickness he hath carried.” [13]

Here, the Zohar applies Isaiah 53:4 to the Messiah, and distinguishes Messiah from Israel. Messiah is seen as vicariously bearing Israel’s punishment for transgressing the law.

 

[Derf]

12. Rabbi Mosheh had-Darshan of Narbonne, a rabbi of the 11th century, in his Bereshith Rabbah, repeatedly applies Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53:12 to the Messiah.[14]

This is that which is written, “I will lift mine eyes unto the hills: O whence cometh my help” (Ps. Cxxi. I)? and, “Who art thou, O great mountain” (Zech. iv. 7)? The great mountain means the Messiah, and why does he speak of him thus? Because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, “Behold my servant shall prosper.”

I have learnt it from the words of R. Mosheh had-Darshan: The redeemer whom I shall raise up from among you will have no father, as it is written, “Behold the man whose name is Zemah [branch], and he shall branch up out of his place” (Zech. vi. 12); and so Isaiah says, “And he came up like a sucker,” etc.

Says R. B’rckhyah, The Holy One said to Israel…the redeemer whom I shall raise up out of your midst will have no father also, as it is said, “Behold the man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch up out of his place” (Zech. vi. 12); and similarly by Isaiah, “And he came up as a sucker before him.”

The Holy One said…O Messiah, my righteousness, said he, the iniquities of those who are hidden beside thee will cause thee to enter into a hard yoke: thine eyes shall see no light, and thine ears shall hear great reproaches from the nations of the world; thy nostrils shall smell ill savours, thy mouth taste bitterness, and thy tongue cleave to thy gums; thy skin shall hang upon thy bones, and thy body grow weak in grief and sighing. Art thou willing to accept this? if so, it shall be well; but if not, behold, I drive them from me for ever. Said the Messiah, Lord of the world, I accept it joyfully and will endure these chastisements, upon the condition that thou givest life again to those who die in my days, and to those who died from the time of the first man until now; and that thou savest in my days not only these…but such as were born out of due time; nor again these only, but those also whom thou thoughtest to create but who were not created. The Holy One replied, I will do so: and forthwith the Messiah accepted the chastisements of love, as it is written, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted.”

This is the King Messiah, who belonged to the generation of the wicked, but rejected them, and chose the Holy One and his holy name to serve him with all his heart, and applied himself to seek for mercy for Israel, and to fast and humble himself on their behalf, as it is said, “He was wounded for our transgressions,” etc. And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them, as it is written, “By his stripes we were healed,” and “He carried the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

In referring to Isaiah 53:7, Rabbi had-Darshan states: “Then took Messiah lovingly all the sufferings upon himself.” [15]

In these passages, Rabbi had-Darshan applies Isaiah 52:13, Isaiah 53: 1, Isaiah 53:7, Isaiah 53:5, and Isaiah 53:12 to the Messiah. It should be noted that “Branch” is a name for the Messiah who, in the second and third passages, is also referred to as the redeemer. In these passages, it clearly states that the Messiah would not have a father. (Interestingly, it does not state that Messiah would not have a mother.) The fourth passage applies Psalm 22:14, 15, and 17 to the Messiah, and indicates that the sufferings of the Messiah were absolutely necessary to accomplish salvation for mankind. The fifth passage clearly distinguishes between the Messiah and Israel, using Isaiah 53:5 and Isaiah 53:12 to demonstrate that the Messiah would suffer vicariously for the sins of Israel.

(I embolded that part above that refers to the messiah having no father as it pertains to your OP.)

 

[Derf]

13. An 11th century writing, Mysteries of R. Shi’on ben Yohai, states:

Messiah, the son of Ephraim, will die there, and Israel will mourn for him. And afterwards the Holy One will reveal to them Messiah, the son of David, whom Israel will desire to stone, saying, Thou spakest falsely; already is the Messiah slain, and there is none other Messiah to stand up (after him): and so they will despise him, as it is written, “Despised and forlorn of men;” [16]

Here is an example of the “two Messiahs” approach. Messiah, son of Ephraim (who was a son of Joseph), would suffer and die first. Afterward would come the second Messiah, the son of David. Here, Isaiah 53:1 is applied to Messiah, son of David, whom Israel would not readily accept, but instead desire to kill.

 

[Derf]

14. Rabbi Tobiyyah ben Eliezer, a rabbi of the 11th century, in his Legah Tov, states:

“And let his kingdom be exalted,” in the days of the Messiah, of whom it is said, “Behold my servant shall prosper; he will be high and exalted, and lofty exceedingly.”[17]

Here, Rabbi ben Eliezer applies Isaiah 52:13 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

15. Rashi, toward the end of the 11th century, was the first to apply Isaiah 53 to Israel. Initially, he applied it to the Messiah. (See Sanhedrin 93.) Only after the Crusades began did Rashi assert that the suffering servant was Israel.[18] However, Rashi’s new view was seen as an aberration from the traditional view (that it spoke of the Messiah).

 

[Derf]

16. Maimonides (1135-1204), perhaps the most famous rabbi of all time, in a letter to Jacob Alfajumi, stated:

What is to be the manner of Messiah’s advent, and where will be the place of His first appearance? . . . And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he will appear…He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, . . . in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which the kings will hearken to him, at him the kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them they have seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived.[19]

In this quote, Maimonides applied Isaiah 52:15 and Isaiah 53:2 to the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

17. Rabbi Moshe Kohen Ibn Crispin of Cordora and Toledo, Spain, writing about this passage in approximately 1350, stated:

I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah, and will be careful, so far as I am able, to adhere to the literal sense: thus, possibly, I shall be free from the fancied and far fetched interpretations of which others have been guilty.[20]