Isaiah 7 study; "Behold the young woman is pregnant..."

[Wick Stick]

Bs"d

The Jews were not Catholics. No vows of virginity, something like that is considered a very bad thing, and they sure were not sitting in the Temple.

See, now you're confusing modern Judaism with ancient Judaism. Modern Judaism is entirely hostile to the notion of remaining unmarried, or chastity.

But ancient Judaism, being the first step beyond barbarism, came up against situations where what was owed to God was a human life. In such situations, by the command of the Almighty, the person was NOT offered as a sacrifice, but rather was consigned to the service of the temple for the duration of their life, where they were also required to remain chaste.

I offer you Judges chapter 11, the story of Jephthah's vow and daughter. Note that she did not mourn the loss of her life, but rather of her virginity.

And history tells us that the Jewish temple continually retained a small group of men and women who served, though not as priests, but as eunuchs by will (and not surgically).

Jarrod

 

[False Prophet]

Sophist

 

[Elia]

See, now you're confusing modern Judaism with ancient Judaism. Modern Judaism is entirely hostile to the notion of remaining unmarried, or chastity.

But ancient Judaism, being the first step beyond barbarism, came up against situations where what was owed to God was a human life. In such situations, by the command of the Almighty, the person was NOT offered as a sacrifice, but rather was consigned to the service of the temple for the duration of their life, where they were also required to remain chaste.

I offer you Judges chapter 11, the story of Jephthah's vow and daughter. Note that she did not mourn the loss of her life, but rather of her virginity.

And history tells us that the Jewish temple continually retained a small group of men and women who served, though not as priests, but as eunuchs by will (and not surgically).

Jarrod

Bs"d

Never heard of anything like that. Please give sources.

 

[Wick Stick]

Bs"d

Never heard of anything like that. Please give sources.

Exodus 38:8

1Samuel 2:22.

2 Baruch 10:18-19
Moreover, you priests) take you the keys of the sanctuary, and cast them into the height of heaven, and give them to the Lord and say:
"Guard Your house Thyself, For lo! we are found false stewards. And you virgins who weave byssus and silk, and gold from Ophir, in haste pick it all up and throw it in the fire that it will return it to its Author, and that the flame will take it back to its Creator, from fear that the enemy might seize it”

2 Macc 3:19-20:
And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication.

Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6
The veil of the Temple was a palm-length in width. It was woven with seventy-two smooth stitches each made of twenty-four threads. The length was of forty cubits and the width of twenty cubits. Eighty-two virgins wove it. Two veils were made each year and three hundred priests were needed to carry it to the pool.

Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a
“women who made the veils for the Temple…baked the showbread…prepared the incense”

Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 (on the destruction of Herod's temple)
“the virgins who were weaving threw themselves in the flames”

It is also laid out in early Christian works, such as the protoevangelium of James and the gospel of the nativity of Mary. I assume those are less interesting to you. There are probably others. I spoke from memory earlier and went and found these for you at your request.

I don't have a reference now, but in an article about a reconstruction of the tabernacle that was built, there was some commentary about the vail of the temple. Basically, it is a huge piece of fabric to weave in a single piece, and the weight thereof eventually causes the linen to rip under its own weight.

It would have been a necessity to replace the vail from time to time, and it appears that the weaving of these giant curtains was the primary task which occupied those young women who were "dedicated" to the temple.

Jarrod

 

[Derf]

Bs"d



So this prophecy has no bearing what so ever on the messiah, and NOWHERE in this prophecy is spoken about a virgin.

These are only misconceptions of the NT.

However, the NT brings this prophecy to Achaz as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 1 "21: she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." 22: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel".

So what the NT does here, is taking a text which does not speak about the messiah, ripping it out of context, mistranslating it, (is says "young woman", and not "virgin") and then presenting it to us as a messianic prophecy.

So one of the foundations of the Christian religion, the virgin birth, is based upon a mistranslated text which is ripped out of context and does NOT speak about the messiah.

What if your messiah came and taught you things that you didn't understand prior to his coming? Is that possible?

What if your messiah came and explained scripture to you? Would you reject it?

What if your messiah came and chose twelve men to be his close friends and taught them many things about the scripture?

And what if one of those men (or more) spoke or wrote down the things he told them, so that others could hear them and read them?

Would you reject those close friends of your messiah because they taught something that was not what you believed? Or would you listen to them and understand that YHWH is not so constrained that He can only use a prophecy once and never again, or have an immediate fulfillment and a future fulfillment?

How well do you know your messiah--the one your scriptures speak of? Would you recognize him when he comes? Did you recognize him when he came?

How long would it take for his people to actually recognize him and accept him?

How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man. [Jer 31:22 KJV]

 

[Elia]

Exodus 38:8

1Samuel 2:22.

2 Baruch 10:18-19
Moreover, you priests) take you the keys of the sanctuary, and cast them into the height of heaven, and give them to the Lord and say:
"Guard Your house Thyself, For lo! we are found false stewards. And you virgins who weave byssus and silk, and gold from Ophir, in haste pick it all up and throw it in the fire that it will return it to its Author, and that the flame will take it back to its Creator, from fear that the enemy might seize it”

2 Macc 3:19-20:
And the virgins also that were shut up, came forth, some to {High Priest} Onias, and some to the walls, and others looked out of the windows. And all holding up their hands towards heaven, made supplication.

Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6
The veil of the Temple was a palm-length in width. It was woven with seventy-two smooth stitches each made of twenty-four threads. The length was of forty cubits and the width of twenty cubits. Eighty-two virgins wove it. Two veils were made each year and three hundred priests were needed to carry it to the pool.

Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a
“women who made the veils for the Temple…baked the showbread…prepared the incense”

Pesikta Rabbati 26, 6 (on the destruction of Herod's temple)
“the virgins who were weaving threw themselves in the flames”

It is also laid out in early Christian works, such as the protoevangelium of James and the gospel of the nativity of Mary. I assume those are less interesting to you. There are probably others. I spoke from memory earlier and went and found these for you at your request.

I don't have a reference now, but in an article about a reconstruction of the tabernacle that was built, there was some commentary about the vail of the temple. Basically, it is a huge piece of fabric to weave in a single piece, and the weight thereof eventually causes the linen to rip under its own weight.

It would have been a necessity to replace the vail from time to time, and it appears that the weaving of these giant curtains was the primary task which occupied those young women who were "dedicated" to the temple.

Jarrod

Bs"d

I see some women who do some work.

I don't see any forced chastity, or a need to stay a virgin for life.

It looks like you're making things up.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Would you reject those close friends of your messiah because they taught something that was not what you believed? Or would you listen to them and understand that YHWH is not so constrained that He can only use a prophecy once and never again, or have an immediate fulfillment and a future fulfillment?

Bs"d

Ah, een "immediate fulfilment", and a "future fulfilment".

So what you mean is, that you can just any text, no matter what it talks about, and you say that that is a messianic prophecy.

Of course, it has no bearing on the messiah what so ever, it speaks about something completely different, taking place hundreds of years before the messiah, but, you say, the "future fulfilment", is about the messiah.

However, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.


1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'


(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000


"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

Ah, een "immediate fulfilment", and a "future fulfilment".

So what you mean is, that you can just any text, no matter what it talks about, and you say that that is a messianic prophecy.

Of course, it has no bearing on the messiah what so ever, it speaks about something completely different, taking place hundreds of years before the messiah, but, you say, the "future fulfilment", is about the messiah.

However, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery


My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
...
[rooster prophecies]...

LOL. The rooster prophecies was excellent!
But what prophecies do you take to be messianic? Are there any?

And what about the questions I asked you--Do you think your messiah, when he comes (or came) would know more about scriptures you do? And will he explain things better when he comes?

So if he explains things different than you expect, whom do you trust better--him or you?

Jesus ran into this situation. The spiritual leaders and scholars of his day were so sure of themselves and their own interpretation, that they would not allow that he MIGHT be there messiah. Seems you are putting yourself in their camp.

Jesus predicted destruction on Jerusalem because they did not recognize his coming. (Luke 19:44) Is that a messianic prophecy? Or is it because someone killed a rooster?

 

[Elia]

LOL. The rooster prophecies was excellent!
But what prophecies do you take to be messianic? Are there any?

Bs"d

Yes there are some, but not many. There are some about whom both friend and adversery, both Jew and Christian, agree that they are messianic prophecies.

And what they all have in common is that they are NOT fulfilled, not by the Christian messiah, and not by anybody else.

And that's how we know that the messiah didn't come yet.

Here are a few, taken from chapter 3 from this page: http://MountZion.notlong.com

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

And what about the questions I asked you--Do you think your messiah, when he comes (or came) would know more about scriptures you do?

Yes.

And will he explain things better when he comes?

Yes.

So if he explains things different than you expect, whom do you trust better--him or you?

Him.

But there is one catch: I first have to be sure that he is the messiah.

And there is only one way he can convince me, and that is by fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

And of course, the messiah is not going to turn the meaning of the words in the Tanach totally upside down.

He is not going to abolish the law, on the contrary, he is going to bring back everybody to observance of Gods laws.

Jesus ran into this situation. The spiritual leaders and scholars of his day were so sure of themselves and their own interpretation, that they would not allow that he MIGHT be there messiah. Seems you are putting yourself in their camp.

ANYBODY can claim to be the messiah. And many did and do.
That's why we don't listen to anybody who claims to be the messiah.

We only believe somebody when he fulfils the messianic prophecies.

Jesus predicted destruction on Jerusalem because they did not recognize his coming. (Luke 19:44) Is that a messianic prophecy? Or is it because someone killed a rooster?

Well, that is not a messianic prophecy. That is a prophecy by somebody of whom you think he was the messiah, that's something different.

A messianic prophecy is a prophecy written in the Tanach, for you the OT, which speaks about the coming messiah.

And about the destruction of Jerusalem, we don't know if his prophecy was written before or after that destruction.

Anyway, Daniel prophesied that already 400 years before him, so he could just have taken his inspiration from Daniel.

And just like the destruction of the first Temple had nothing to do with the messiah, even so the destruction of the second Temple also had nothing to do with the messiah.

And anyway, he was not a very good prophet:

Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.

In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..

Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.

This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ….. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .

This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.



In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!

From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."

Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.

And what about the miracles that he is supposed to have done?

Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshipped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*).

So if he really performed these miracles, then applies to him the law of G.d that says: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5.


"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[Wick Stick]

Bs"d

I see some women who do some work.

I don't see any forced chastity, or a need to stay a virgin for life.

It looks like you're making things up.

Yep, you got me. I just now made it up, then I got into my TARDIS, and traveled throughout history to find people who would corroborate what I said in historical documents, just to prank you.

But really, it's bad enough when you're too lazy to put in the research to find the answer yourself. When someone else spoon-feeds it to you and you still refuse to look, that's an entirely different level.

Acts 28:26-27

Jarrod

 

[daqq]

Yep, you got me. I just now made it up, then I got into my TARDIS, and traveled throughout history to find people who would corroborate what I said in historical documents, just to prank you.

But really, it's bad enough when you're too lazy to put in the research to find the answer yourself. When someone else spoon-feeds it to you and you still refuse to look, that's an entirely different level.

Acts 28:26-27

Jarrod

If it is any consolation I certainly enjoyed your previous post and thank you for it. The sky-blue veil had everything that is mystical in the heavens upon it, with the exception of the twelve signs, (because they are represented by living creatures). In the Mishkan-Tabernacle the veil was also hung upon the four pillars or "powers of the heavens", (the veil represents the heavens being the firmament-division between the Kodesh Kadashim of Elohim and the secondary sanctuary of man, [the priesthood]). Thus when the veil was rent in the midst, from top to botton, "the powers of the heavens were shaken" by the great earthquake of Matthew 27:51, even as in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, (Isaiah 6:4 is the prophetic pre-type) and the seven stars, (upon the veil) fell to the earth.

 

[Wick Stick]

If it is any consolation I certainly enjoyed your previous post and thank you for it. The sky-blue veil had everything that is mystical in the heavens upon it, with the exception of the twelve signs, (because they are represented by living creatures). In the Mishkan-Tabernacle the veil was also hung upon the four pillars or "powers of the heavens", (the veil represents the heavens being the firmament-division between the Kodesh Kadashim of Elohim and the secondary sanctuary of man, [the priesthood]). Thus when the veil was rent in the midst, from top to botton, "the powers of the heavens were shaken" by the great earthquake of Matthew 27:51, even as in the days of Uzziah king of Judah, (Isaiah 6:4 is the prophetic pre-type) and the seven stars, (upon the veil) fell to the earth.

You know, I had never put together the temple veil with the firmament. Now I wonder why not.

I spent a fair amount of time ruminating on the Tower of Babel, which also contained an Apsu-Abyss in the temple at the apex representing the same exact thing.

I also built a scale model of the Tower using drawings of the E-Temenanki uncovered by archaeologists and my son's minecraft account. How nerdy is that?

Jarrod

 

[daqq]

You know, I had never put together the temple veil with the firmament. Now I wonder why not.

I spent a fair amount of time ruminating on the Tower of Babel, which also contained an Apsu-Abyss in the temple at the apex representing the same exact thing.

I also built a scale model of the Tower using drawings of the E-Temenanki uncovered by archaeologists and my son's minecraft account. How nerdy is that?

Jarrod

Hmmm, well, don't know about E-Temenanki but at least now you know why Yeshua answers the very first question of Matthew 24:3 at the very end of the Olivet Discourse, in the Matthew account, with the "punch-line" statement that is written therein. Funny how no one ever seems to notice that statement which clearly drops like a Rock at the extreme end of the passage, (in the Matthew account).

 

[Wick Stick]

Hmmm, well, don't know about E-Temenanki but at least now you know why Yeshua answers the very first question of Matthew 24:3 at the very end of the Olivet Discourse, in the Matthew account, with the "punch-line" statement that is written therein. Funny how no one ever seems to notice that statement which clearly drops like a Rock at the extreme end of the passage, (in the Matthew account).

Are you referring to 24:29? The discourse completes at the end of chapter 25, but that doesn't answer the question as far as I can tell.

E-Temenanki is the name the Babylonians gave to their tower.

E = temple or house
Temen = foundation pegs
an = heaven
ki = earth

If the information uncovered is not exaggerated, then the construction was a 7-tier ziggurat roughly the height of a 30-story building. Each tier was meant to be a "foundation" (and astronomical observation platform) associated with the sun, moon, and 5 visible planets (which are also the Babylonian "gods").

On top of the 7th level was a temple, which contained a throne and an apsu-abyss...

Jarrod

 

[daqq]

Are you referring to 24:29? The discourse completes at the end of chapter 25, but that doesn't answer the question as far as I can tell.

The author himself disagrees with you, (keep reading). :chuckle:

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

Yes there are some, but not many. There are some about whom both friend and adversery, both Jew and Christian, agree that they are messianic prophecies.

I think you must be excluding all those that disprove your position, which is usually called "begging the question". It works like this: I don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the messiah, because I only believe those prophecies that he didn't fulfil to be messianic."

And what they all have in common is that they are NOT fulfilled, not by the Christian messiah, and not by anybody else.

And that's how we know that the messiah didn't come yet.

Here are a few, taken from chapter 3 from this page: http://MountZion.notlong.com

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

So what is this "he will give them up until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth"? Who is being given up by whom? And until what time? You complain (below) of the big gap between the coming of Jesus and the fulfillment of the rest of the prophecy, but here in the prophecy we see a time gap of some unknown duration.

And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW

I noticed your embolding of NOW. In all of the text around it, it says "he shall". So how confident are you that this "NOW" means what you want it to mean? Seems more to me like it's saying this man is already great unto the ends of the earth--in the time of Micah. So it actually strengthens the claim of Jesus' existence before the NT time.

If not that, then you need to explain to me how the messiah will "be great unto the ends of the earth", yet the Assyrian will make it all the way into the palaces of Israel before someone does something about it.

shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Nowadays a president needs to have the people believe in him before they elect him. Can't happen if he has to fulfill ALL the prophecies before you believe in him. (See more in the "catch-22" discussion below.)

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

So you agree that your messiah is to be "lowly", more like a wandering preacher than a king. He has to be a great king, reknowned from sea to sea, yet "lowly". And apparently you do need a messiah that saves, unlike what you told me before:

And we don't need him for salvation, for that we need God

And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem,

You speak of Him bringing peace, yet in the Micah 5:2-9 passage above, it says "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword," Wasting the land of Assyria with the sword doesn't sound like "peace". So somehow you and I have the same problem: our messiah(s) bring peace yet don't do it in a peaceful fashion, yes? Maybe we don't understand what the passage means. And what did Jesus say? "I came not to bring peace, but a sword" (Matt 10:34). Sounds like Jesus was eerily like the messiah--counter-intuitive.

and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

Really? No dominion? What year is it for most of the world? 2015 AD. I know there are those that prefer "CE", but we all know what it means, don't we. And how are dates given in the Tanach? Here are some examples: 1Ki 14:25 1Ki 15:1, 9, 25, 28, 33 1Ki 16:8, 10, 15, 23, 29 1Ki 22:2, 41, 51 2Ki 1:17 2Ki 3:1 2Ki 8:16, 25-26 2Ki 12:6 2Ki 13:1, 10 2Ki 14:1, 23 2Ki 15:1, 8, 13, 17, 23, 27, 32 2Ki 16:1 2Ki 17:1, 4, 6 2Ki 18:1, 9-10, 13 2Ki 22:3 2Ki 23:23 2Ki 24:12 2Ki 25:1, 8, 27 1Ch 27:1 2Ch 12:2 2Ch 13:1 2Ch 16:1 2Ch 36:22 Ezr 1:1 Ezr 5:13 Ezr 6:3, 15 Ezr 7:7-8 Neh 2:1 Neh 5:14 Neh 13:6 Est 2:16 Est 3:7 Isa 20:1 Isa 36:1 Jer 1:2-3 Jer 25:1 Jer 28:1 Jer 32:1 Jer 36:1, 9 Jer 39:1 Jer 45:1 Jer 46:2 Jer 51:59 Jer 52:4, 12, 31 Eze 1:2 Dan 1:1 Dan 7:1 Dan 8:1 Dan 9:1 Dan 10:1 Hag 1:1, 15 Zec 7:1
(In case you didn't notice, the dates are based on the king who has dominion at the time of the event in question.)

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming.

Except perhaps Isaiah 52:13-53:12. I know you didn't list it in the undisputed prophecies, but you can't leave out all the ones you dispute and then just pretend there aren't any. Christians aren't alone in claiming Is 52-53 as messianic, despite your website link's rejection of it.

This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; ...
Jeremiah 33:14-16: ...
Isaiah 11;

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

What is "the rod of his mouth"? Is it not his word--the things he says? I don't understand that prophecy fully, but I get the feeling you don't either.

And what about the questions I asked you--Do you think your messiah, when he comes (or came) would know more about scriptures you do?

Yes.

And will he explain things better when he comes?

Yes.

So if he explains things different than you expect, whom do you trust better--him or you?

Him.

But there is one catch: I first have to be sure that he is the messiah.

Your "catch" is a bit of a catch-22. It seems to me that the messiah, when he comes, will be inhibited from doing what he plans to do because the people that he wants to do those things with don't believe in him yet. The messiah wouldn't necessarily do all those things by himself--note the verse you quoted above: "then shall we raise against him [the Assyrian] seven shepherds, and eight principal men". What kind of messiah is it that forces his will on his own people against their will? These shepherds and principal men must believe in the messiah for him to be able to send them to do his work against the Assyrians. But if all the shepherds and principal men wait to see if other shepherds and principal men attack the Assyrian, then who attacks the Assyrian?

And there is only one way he can convince me, and that is by fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

And of course, the messiah is not going to turn the meaning of the words in the Tanach totally upside down.

He is not going to abolish the law, on the contrary, he is going to bring back everybody to observance of Gods laws.

Have any of the Tanach laws ever been rightfully nullified? Is it possible to do so? Jesus didn't claim to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). Yet he declared things clean that weren't so before (Mar 7:19). Why would he do that? Maybe some of those laws had served their purpose--they weren't abolished, they were fulfilled.

ANYBODY can claim to be the messiah. And many did and do.
That's why we don't listen to anybody who claims to be the messiah.

We only believe somebody when he fulfils the messianic prophecies.

I think what you mean is that AFTER he fulfills the messianic prophecies, THEN you'll believe in him. But if that's the case, then you will NEVER be a part of the fulfillment of those prophecies. It will be up to someone else to do the messiah's bidding, because you are unwilling to do so! I feel sorry for you, Elia.

Well, that is not a messianic prophecy. That is a prophecy by somebody of whom you think he was the messiah, that's something different.

A messianic prophecy is a prophecy written in the Tanach, for you the OT, which speaks about the coming messiah.

And about the destruction of Jerusalem, we don't know if his prophecy was written before or after that destruction.

Anyway, Daniel prophesied that already 400 years before him, so he could just have taken his inspiration from Daniel.

And just like the destruction of the first Temple had nothing to do with the messiah, even so the destruction of the second Temple also had nothing to do with the messiah.

And anyway, he was not a very good prophet:

Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.

In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..

Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.

Jesus also described what the kingdom of heaven is like in numerous parables. You're looking for a kingdom of heaven of your own creation. Jesus was trying to tell you what it is supposed to be like.

This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ….. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .

You managed to leave out some pretty important words. Here's the passage with some of those important words added back in.

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many... but the end shall not be yet...these are the beginnings of sorrows...And the gospel must first be published among all nations... (let him that readeth understand,)...But in those days, after that tribulation, The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done."

Seems like "this generation" is a little more complicated than you make it out to be, with some things dependent on others in cascade fashion.

This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.



In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!

From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."

Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.

Seems like Daniel should have been executed. He prophesied something that happened more than 400 years after his death, by your own admission. And maybe some stuff that still hasn't occurred. Yet He's listed in Ezekiel as a righteous man (Ezek 14:14), even though his prophesies had not been fulfilled.

It also seems like prophets were killed by those who didn't believe their prophesies, even when they were from the LORD. How could that happen? Could that happen today? Could you be guilty of that if a prophet showed up on your doorstep? Think carefully before you answer.

And what about the miracles that he is supposed to have done?

Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshiped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*).

Nebuchadnezzar worshiped Daniel (Dan 2:46). Both Jesus and Daniel pointed to the true God of heaven and earth and said to worship him. Jesus also allowed and encouraged people to worship him. You've done a nice job of proving one side of the trinity. Thank you! A lot of people don't believe Jesus claimed to be God. It's interesting that you would have those issues with Jesus. It makes me wonder what you would do to the 3 men that visited Abraham.

So if he really performed these miracles, then applies to him the law of G.d that says: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5.

So who was David talking about in Ps 110:1? Who would be greater than David and sit at God's right hand and God would make his enemies to be his footstool? Sounds messianic, but then that makes David (his greater by generations) to be his servant when he calls him "Lord".

"Serve Y-H-W-H!

That's what Jesus said, too: Luk 4:8.

 

[Elia]

So who was David talking about in Ps 110:1? Who would be greater than David and sit at God's right hand and God would make his enemies to be his footstool? Sounds messianic, but then that makes David (his greater by generations) to be his servant when he calls him "Lord".

Bs"d

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6

Serve Y-H-W-H

That's what Jesus said, too: Luk 4:8.

In that case, why is all of Christianity worshipping a human being in stead of the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is one?


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

I think you must be excluding all those that disprove your position, which is usually called "begging the question". It works like this: I don't believe Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the messiah, because I only believe those prophecies that he didn't fulfil to be messianic."

Bs"d

That's the job of the Christians, to come up with the messianic prophecies that he did fulfil.

So go ahead, you have the floor. Please prove to me that he was the messiah.

So what is this "he will give them up until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth"? Who is being given up by whom? And until what time? You complain (below) of the big gap between the coming of Jesus and the fulfillment of the rest of the prophecy, but here in the prophecy we see a time gap of some unknown duration.

What we do not see above is a gap of time between the coming of the messiah and the redemption.

That we see nowhere, and that is not possible according to the messianic prophecy in Jeremiah 33.

I noticed your embolding of NOW. In all of the text around it, it says "he shall". So how confident are you that this "NOW" means what you want it to mean? Seems more to me like it's saying this man is already great unto the ends of the earth--in the time of Micah. So it actually strengthens the claim of Jesus' existence before the NT time.

The "now" refers to the time of the messiah's coming. It means that as soon as the messiah comes, redemption will come.

And no gap of thousands of years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

So you agree that your messiah is to be "lowly", more like a wandering preacher than a king.

Bs'd

The messiah is going to be a king. For the simple reason that the messianic prophecies say so.

And the messiah is not going to be lowly, he is going to be humble. That's something different.

Moses was the greatest prophet that ever lived, yet he was also the most humble man on earth: "Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth." Num 12:3

So he is going to be a king, and not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

He has to be a great king, reknowned from sea to sea, yet "lowly". And apparently you do need a messiah that saves, unlike what you told me before:

God is the saviour. But sometimes He uses humans to do His work, like the messiah.

You speak of Him bringing peace, yet in the Micah 5:2-9 passage above, it says "And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword," Wasting the land of Assyria with the sword doesn't sound like "peace".

It isn't peace. But it will bring peace.

In WW II, when the allies were bombing the hell out of Germany, that wasn't peace, but it brought peace.

So somehow you and I have the same problem: our messiah(s) bring peace yet don't do it in a peaceful fashion, yes?

That is not a problem. The Tanach says that the messiah will bring peace, it doesn't say he will bring peace in a peacefull way. No problem.

Really? No dominion? What year is it for most of the world? 2015 AD. I know there are those that prefer "CE", but we all know what it means, don't we.
(In case you didn't notice, the dates are based on the king who has dominion at the time of the event in question.)

The Muslims have their own calendar, as have the Chinese, and with those two Christianity is already a minority.

We Jews count the years from creation.

And let's face the facts: Your messiah has never been a king, and isn't a king.

And he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies.

Except perhaps Isaiah 52:13-53:12. I know you didn't list it in the undisputed prophecies, but you can't leave out all the ones you dispute and then just pretend there aren't any. Christians aren't alone in claiming Is 52-53 as messianic, despite your website link's rejection of it.

What Christianity does is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by Christ".

Horrific examples of that can be found HERE

Isaiah 53 is just another example of a Tanach text which has no bearing on the messiah, which is used by Christianity as a "messianic prophecy", which it obviously is not.

What is "the rod of his mouth"? Is it not his word--the things he says?

Probably.

I don't understand that prophecy fully, but I get the feeling you don't either.

The only thing you have to understand is that the messiah is going to kill all the evil people and bring back utopia.

On his first coming.

Your "catch" is a bit of a catch-22.

No it is not.

It seems to me that the messiah, when he comes, will be inhibited from doing what he plans to do because the people that he wants to do those things with don't believe in him yet. The messiah wouldn't necessarily do all those things by himself--note the verse you quoted above: "then shall we raise against him [the Assyrian] seven shepherds, and eight principal men". What kind of messiah is it that forces his will on his own people against their will? These shepherds and principal men must believe in the messiah for him to be able to send them to do his work against the Assyrians. But if all the shepherds and principal men wait to see if other shepherds and principal men attack the Assyrian, then who attacks the Assyrian?

The messiah doesn't need anybody to believe in him for him to do his job.

He'll just do it.

If everybody believed in him there wouldn't be any need for him to wipe out the evil ones.

Have any of the Tanach laws ever been rightfully nullified?

No.

Is it possible to do so?

No.

Jesus didn't claim to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). Yet he declared things clean that weren't so before (Mar 7:19). Why would he do that?

Because he was contradicting himself.

Maybe some of those laws had served their purpose--they weren't abolished, they were fulfilled.

Just don't make the mistake to think that "fulfilled" means "abolished", "set aside", "out of order", or anything like that.

Every time I do a law of God, I fulfil His law. That doesn't mean that somebody else then doesn't have to do it any more, because I fulfilled it already.

Everybody has to fulfil them.

I think what you mean is that AFTER he fulfills the messianic prophecies, THEN you'll believe in him.

Right.

But if that's the case, then you will NEVER be a part of the fulfillment of those prophecies.

Right. Because I'm not the messiah, I will not be part of the fulfilment of the messianic prophecies. The messiah will be.

It will be up to someone else to do the messiah's bidding, because you are unwilling to do so! I feel sorry for you, Elia.

Don't worry, I don't.

Jesus also described what the kingdom of heaven is like in numerous parables. You're looking for a kingdom of heaven of your own creation. Jesus was trying to tell you what it is supposed to be like.

The messianic prophecies don't speak about a "kingdom of heaven", the speak about a kingdom here on earth.

You managed to leave out some pretty important words. Here's the passage with some of those important words added back in.

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many... but the end shall not be yet...these are the beginnings of sorrows...And the gospel must first be published among all nations... (let him that readeth understand,)...But in those days, after that tribulation, The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done."

Seems like "this generation" is a little more complicated than you make it out to be, with some things dependent on others in cascade fashion.

He speaks about the generation that was right there, in his days.

That we also see from these words: "Matthew 16:27-28: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Seems like Daniel should have been executed. He prophesied something that happened more than 400 years after his death, by your own admission. And maybe some stuff that still hasn't occurred. Yet He's listed in Ezekiel as a righteous man (Ezek 14:14), even though his prophesies had not been fulfilled.

All his prophecies came true, except for those about the end of times.

So it cannot be proven that he was a false prophet.

But your messiah's prophecies which were by his own admission to come about in the life time of that generation, those failed.

It also seems like prophets were killed by those who didn't believe their prophesies, even when they were from the LORD. How could that happen? Could that happen today? Could you be guilty of that if a prophet showed up on your doorstep? Think carefully before you answer.

We don't have prophets now, so the question doesn't get started.

Nebuchadnezzar worshiped Daniel (Dan 2:46). Both Jesus and Daniel pointed to the true God of heaven and earth and said to worship him. Jesus also allowed and encouraged people to worship him.

And by that he is leading 2 billion people into idolatry.

You've done a nice job of proving one side of the trinity.

There is no trinity.

There is only one God, J-H-W-H, who is ONE:

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

 

[Derf]

Bs"d

Psalm 110:1; "The Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

This Psalm is most likely written by an officer in David's army. It says here; The Lord, (in Hebrew Y-H-W-H) says to my lord, (in the sense of master). This is literally translated: Y-H-W-H says to my master: etc. This applies to David, just like the next verse, "The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your foes." This is what King David did, God made his enemies a footstool to him, and he ruled from Zion (Jerusalem). Verse 5 and 6: "The Lord is at your right hand, He will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses." King David slaughtered many of his enemies, as written in this Psalm, but all these things that were never done by Jesus. Therefore it makes no sense to say that this applies to Jesus and not to king David.

Here is the explanation of the great Jewish sage from the Middle Ages, rabbi Moshe ben Nachman, a.k.a. the Ramban:

King David was the composer who wrote the Psalms with the aid of the holy spirit. He composed them for the purpose of having them sung before the altar of God. He himself did not sing them, nor was he permitted to do so, for that function was forbidden to him by law of the Torah. (Deuteronomy 18:6-7) Insted, he gave the Psalms to the Levites, so that they would sing them. This is clearly written in the book of I Chronicles 16:7 Therefore, King David perforce expressed the psalm in the language appropriate for utterance by the Levites. Thus, if King David had said; "The Eternal said to me", the levites repeating these words would be uttering falsehood. Instead, it is proper for the Levite to say in the Temple: "The Eternal saith unto my lord: (that is to King David) Sit thou at My right hand." The purport of the term 'sitting' is to state that the Creator, blessed be He, will protect him during his lifetime and that He will save him and cause him to prevail over his enemies. So it was, for he lifted up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. This is the right hand of God. It is also written of David: "And Your right hand has holden me up." Psalm 18:36. It is similarly written: "The right hand of the Almighty does valiantly. The right hand of the Eternal is exalted." Psalm 118:15 Regarding Moses our teacher, peace be upon him, it is written: "He caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses." Isaiah 63:12 And Moses said at the fall of pharaoh: "Thy right hand, O Eternal, dashes the enemy in pieces." Exodus 15:6

Bs"d

That's the job of the Christians, to come up with the messianic prophecies that he did fulfil.

So go ahead, you have the floor. Please prove to me that he was the messiah.

So you're telling me that no Jews believe Ps 110 to be messianic? I beg to differ:

The passage in the New Testament (Matt 22:40-46) relates this as a conversation stopper for the religious smart guys of Jesus' day. So apparently they thought Jesus interpreted the passage correctly--that David was speaking of the messiah, his offspring. It would have been quite easy for them to answer Jesus if they believed those verses DID NOT refer to the messiah--they would just say so as you have done. But they couldn't, for the obvious reason that they, too, thought the verses referred to the messiah.

The Midrash on Psalms (Book One, 18, 29) states plainly that the Messiah is addressed and told to sit on God’s right hand in Psalm 110:1.

The Midrash Rabbah, Genesis LXXXV, 9 affirms that the staff mentioned in Psalm 110:2 refers to the royal Messiah. Also, in regard to Psalm 110:2, the Midrash Rabbah, Numbers XVIII, 23 maintains that the staff is destined to be held in the hand of the Messiah.

Midrash Yelamdeinu concurs and states that the Messiah will use the staff to conquer the nations of the world.

The Midrash on Psalm 18:36 specifically asserts that the Messiah is seated on God’s right hand while Abraham is seated on God’s left.

Psalm 110:5 is applied to the Messiah and Messianic times in Yalkut stating that the Messiah will be placed on God’s right hand. Yalkut also applies verse 7 to Messianic times.

The influential rabbinic commentator, Rabbi Ovadiah ben Yaacov Sforno asserts that Psalm 110 is dedicated to King Messiah and that he is the one on God’s right hand.

The modern rabbinic commentary, The Artscroll Tanach Series, in reference to verse 110:3 states that the Messiah will also inspire His followers.

(the above in green taken from http://www.hadavar.org/critical-iss...ee-fold-authority-of-king-messiah/conclusion/)

What we do not see above is a gap of time between the coming of the messiah and the redemption.

That we see nowhere, and that is not possible according to the messianic prophecy in Jeremiah 33.

It's interesting that you give Jeremiah as a messianic passage. It seems to confirm that the messiah would be a healer--Jer 33:6.
It also confirms the need for cleansing from iniquity--Jer 33:8. How would that happen except through a sacrifice; the spotless lamb of God, maybe?

The "now" refers to the time of the messiah's coming. It means that as soon as the messiah comes, redemption will come.

And no gap of thousands of years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption.

Easy to say, but does it fit with the rest of the passage? Not really. It seems to accentuate a difference between the other parts of the passage and that one verse. All the rest say "He shall", and that one says "Now he shall". I agree that it refers to the messiah's coming, but it refers to it in a way that is different from the other parts of the verses around it.

Have you considered that perhaps it means that many of those things will happen eventually, but that one thing will happen "NOW" or earlier than those other things? Like there's a gap of, say, 2000 years?

Potentially, then, the "NOW" actually seems to reinforce the idea of a gap.

Bs'd

The messiah is going to be a king. For the simple reason that the messianic prophecies say so.

And the messiah is not going to be lowly, he is going to be humble. That's something different.

Don't look at me--I'm not the one that quoted the "lowly" translation.

So he is going to be a king, and not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

King Solomon was a preacher (Ecc 1:1).
And if you don't reject the obvious messianic message in Is 61:1, you can see that the messiah is both a preacher and a healer.

It isn't peace. But it will bring peace.

But you said you wouldn't believe in him until AFTER he had fulfilled the prophecy to bring peace. But that suggests that He's not the messiah until after he fulfills everything. Meaning He has to already have brought peace while is trying to bring peace. (Catch-22 again)

The Muslims have their own calendar, as have the Chinese, and with those two Christianity is already a minority.
We Jews count the years from creation.

So now you're saying that because some people don't recognize the messiah as king, then he must not be the messiah. But that flies in the face of the Assyrian passage. (Catch-22 again)

And let's face the facts: Your messiah has never been a king, and isn't a king.

He's MY king! And he has been the king of all the Christians (called by His name) since he rose from the dead. Your facts are a little lacking in truth.

And he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies.

What Christianity does is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by Christ".

Horrific examples of that can be found HERE.

Isaiah 53 is just another example of a Tanach text which has no bearing on the messiah, which is used by Christianity as a "messianic prophecy", which it obviously is not.

Obvious to whom? Maybe not so obvious to some: http://juchre.org/talmud/sukkah/sukkah3.htm#52a

The messiah doesn't need anybody to believe in him for him to do his job. He'll just do it.

Your messiah sounds so powerful--maybe even as powerful as YHWH!!!

Have any of the Tanach laws ever been rightfully nullified? Is it possible to do so?

No.
No.

Then why don't Jews today perform the sacrifices commanded in the Tanach?

Just don't make the mistake to think that "fulfilled" means "abolished", "set aside", "out of order", or anything like that.

Every time I do a law of God, I fulfil His law. That doesn't mean that somebody else then doesn't have to do it any more, because I fulfilled it already.

Everybody has to fulfil them.

Because I'm not the messiah, I will not be part of the fulfilment of the messianic prophecies. The messiah will be.

The whole point of the messiah's coming was to benefit Israel--not just some dead guy from 3000 years ago, but also Israel when the messiah comes. If you aren't part of that fulfillment when he comes, then what benefit do you receive? Why do you hope in a messiah that won't do anything for you? The messiah, even if you crop and distort the prophecies to the ones you've listed, still must have subjects before he can be a king. If everybody believes like you do, then the messiah will be despised and rejected. There's that catch-22 again. If the messiah has no subjects when you hear about him, and you won't be his subject until he has subjects, then he can't be your king!

All his [Daniel's] prophecies came true, except for those about the end of times. So it cannot be proven that he was a false prophet.

That's my point--If Jesus spoke about the end times, and those prophecies haven't come true yet, then you can't condemn him as a false prophet.

But your messiah's prophecies which were by his own admission to come about in the life time of that generation, those failed.

I thought we went over this already. Some things were to come about in that generation, and some things were obviously for a later time.

We don't have prophets now, so the question doesn't get started.

It does if you are required to believe the prophecies of those that wrote the Tanach and you decide to disregard some of them in favor of the ones you like.

And by that he is leading 2 billion people into idolatry.

Not if he's telling the truth, that He and YHWH are one! And here again is proof of his kingship, from your own hands--that he has 2 billion people that are following him.

Thanks for proving my point for me!!!