Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

Okay, believe what you want to believe. Just don't give me a hard time for believing that the second death really is death, the wages of sin really is death, destruction really means destruction, perish means perish, eternal life means eternal life and those who do not have eternal life are not conscious eternally. Okay?

I'm not giving you a hard time for anything that you believe, only for ignoring the Truths of The Holy Scriptures and the thought of so many believers down through the ages. We don't make these things up, but draw our conclusions from reading our Bibles and believing that God's Word is Truth. Attempting to twist Scripture and distort Truth isn't becoming of God-fearing Christians. It only shows that you're defending your own theology without holding The Bible up as Holy and True.

 

[Timotheos]

I'm not giving you a hard time for anything that you believe, only for ignoring the Truths of The Holy Scriptures and the thought of so many believers down through the ages. We don't make these things up, but draw our conclusions from reading our Bibles and believing that God's Word is Truth. Attempting to twist Scripture and distort Truth isn't becoming of God-fearing Christians. It only shows that you're defending your own theology without holding The Bible up as Holy and True.

I do not "ignore the truths of the holy scriptures. But you do. The Holy and true scriptures say specifically that the wages of sin is death, but you don't care about that. Your tradition says that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell, and tradition trumps scripture, doesn't it? I don't believe empty vain traditions of men, I believe the Bible. Do you believe in purgatory too? The same people who invented eternal conscious torment invented purgatory. You can't have one without the other. I have never twisted scripture. You can't show me one verse that I've twisted. That is a flat out lie. I also do not distort truth. Every thing I've said has been backed up by True Scripture, which you ignore. I believe the Bible is Holy and True, and I received "my" theology from reading the Bible. I used to believe the same thing you believe now, but I studied the Bible and rejected it because it is unbiblical.

You said a lot of lies about me in your post. They don't mean anything coming from you. I don't believe your lies, and nobody else should either. It is not a distortion of scripture to believe that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23 says "The wages of sin is death". If I am distorting scripture, then so is the Apostle Paul. If you reject the Truth that the wages of sin is death, then you are rejecting the Bible.

Just post the verse that backs up your false doctrine. Post the verse that says that people go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever. You can't do it, because there is no such verse. Not one verse in the whole Bible agrees with your false doctrine.

 

[Timotheos]

Nobody EVER accepts my challenge to post the verse that says "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment while they are dead".

THAT says a lot.

Times up! Since you won't post the verse that says "The wicked will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment while they are dead", it is proven that this is a False Doctrine. The true doctrine is that the wages of sin is death. The wicked are judged and pay the penalty of eternal destruction.

Aimiel and Wiley, you lost this debate.

 

[godrulz]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html

Does this apply? It seems there is equivocation with terms.

Death/destruction has a semantical range of meaning. Tim simply begs the question with one definition (English vs theological/biblical) of the terms to suit his preconceptions.

If we look at all relevant texts, all uses of the words, range of meaning of the words, principles, exegesis/passages, etc., it will not support his heresy.

The posts become pointless because he ignores these issues and just covers his ears and repeats that death and destruction are cessation, contrary to evidence.

Time to quit wasting our time.

 

[Timotheos]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/equivoqu.html

Does this apply? It seems there is equivocation with terms.

Death/destruction has a semantical range of meaning. Tim simply begs the question with one definition (English vs theological/biblical) of the terms to suit his preconceptions.

If we look at all relevant texts, all uses of the words, range of meaning of the words, principles, exegesis/passages, etc., it will not support his heresy.

The posts become pointless because he ignores these issues and just covers his ears and repeats that death and destruction are cessation, contrary to evidence.

Time to quit wasting our time.

Why don't you post the verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment while they are dead? That would be a big time saver. If there is a verse in the Bible that agrees with your unBiblical view, I'll be convinced and stop wasting your time. If you can't post this verse, you can stop wasting my time

By the way, it is not Heresy to believe the Bible as written. However, if you have the verse that says "Death, when it is written in the Bible, doesn't really mean death even though we wrote "death" we didn't really mean it. What we meant to say was "eternal life in Hell being tortured", but we never got around to changing it, we hope that you are not inconvenienced by this". I'd like to see THAT verse!

 

[Aimiel]

I do not "ignore the truths of the holy scriptures. But you do. The Holy and true scriptures say specifically that the wages of sin is death, but you don't care about that. Your tradition says that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell, and tradition trumps scripture, doesn't it?

No, you're lying again. I never said any such thing. I believe that after death comes judgment. You don't believe that. You believe that after death comes death. The Bible does support what I believe. Your fallacy is based upon ignoring what happens after death.

Do you believe in purgatory too?

I do believe that a part of what God created (paradise) was used to hold people until they could gain entrance into Heaven (since there is no entrance until Jesus' Blood created the possibility of forgiveness of sin). I don't believe that exists any more.

The same people who invented eternal conscious torment invented purgatory.

God created it. :duh:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No one invented eternal conscious torment, it was found in Scripture. God created it when Lucifer fell from grace.

You can't show me one verse that I've twisted.

You're correct, but it is only because your eyes are closed. You don't accept that you're imperfect.

I used to believe the same thing you believe now, but I studied the Bible and rejected it because it is unbiblical.

Were that the case, I would acquiesce to your wisdom. It isn't, obviously.

You said a lot of lies about me in your post.

I do not lie. That makes one of us.

It is not a distortion of scripture to believe that the wages of sin is death.

Yes, it is, if you don't follow that up with the fact that after this comes judgment. :duh:

Just post the verse that backs up your false doctrine. Post the verse that says that people go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever. You can't do it, because there is no such verse. Not one verse in the whole Bible agrees with your false doctrine.

I've never said that. No one goes anywhere without God's permission. God sends sinners to hell. At judgment they'll be sent to the Lake of Fire, which I'm sure is more painful even than hell is. They go to hell to prevent them from bringing harm to those in Heaven, awaiting those they're watching from their 'witness cloud'. :thumb:

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Death means the condition of not being alive. Death does not mean "the severance of relationships.

There is no such thing as never being alive. Your view was the view of the Sadducees. They thought that death was the end. But Jesus reminded them that God said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Then He said, "therefore, God is not the God of the dead but of the LIVING."

Paul said that we are "DEAD to the law" that we might be "MARRIED to another, even Christ." Our relationship to the law was severed so that we could enter into a relationship with Christ. Therefore, death involves the severance of a relationship.

You have your head buried in the sand!

The prodigal son was not dead.

His father said he was dead. He said, "my son was dead, but now is alive."

The heavens and the earth were not destroyed in Noah's day.

What Bible are you reading? Peter said that the heavens and the earth in Noah's day were "destroyed."

According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death. The Bible says this in Romans 6:23, you can't deny it. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Those who believe in him will not perish but will have eternal life, John 3:16. This means that those who do not believe in him will perish and will not have eternal life.

Paul said that we were "dead" (Ephesians 2:1).

Do not EVER say "Duh!" to me again. When you say "Duh!" you are saying that I am too stupid to see what is obvious to everyone else. If you really think I am that stupid, say that I am that stupid so that I can report you.

The lake of fire and smoke rising up is all a metaphor for torment. The interpretation must be in accord with the metaphor. Smoke does not continue to rise forever and ever after a fire is put out. If smoke is rising up forever and ever, then the fire is burning forever and ever. :doh:

 

[Timotheos]

Does this apply? It seems there is equivocation with terms.

No that does not apply because "Death" never means "Alive and in Torment in Hell". You are simply mistaken. You are also wasting my time, since all you need to do is post the verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment while they are dead. If you can't post it, your doctrine is false.

 

[Timotheos]

Deleted duplicate post.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

No, you're lying again. I never said any such thing. I believe that after death comes judgment. You don't believe that. You believe that after death comes death. The Bible does support what I believe. Your fallacy is based upon ignoring what happens after death.I do believe that a part of what God created (paradise) was used to hold people until they could gain entrance into Heaven (since there is no entrance until Jesus' Blood created the possibility of forgiveness of sin). I don't believe that exists any more.God created it. :duh:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No one invented eternal conscious torment, it was found in Scripture. God created it when Lucifer fell from grace.You're correct, but it is only because your eyes are closed. You don't accept that you're imperfect.Were that the case, I would acquiesce to your wisdom. It isn't, obviously.I do not lie. That makes one of us.Yes, it is, if you don't follow that up with the fact that after this comes judgment. :duh:I've never said that. No one goes anywhere without God's permission. God sends sinners to hell. At judgment they'll be sent to the Lake of Fire, which I'm sure is more painful even than hell is. They go to hell to prevent them from bringing harm to those in Heaven, awaiting those they're watching from their 'witness cloud'. :thumb:

You said "duh" two times. Be careful, Timotheus don't like that. :chuckle:

 

[Timotheos]

You have your head buried in the sand!

You are so offensive.

And you have already lost because you couldn't produce the verse from the Bible that agrees with your misguided doctrine. Doh! I'm Wile E Coyote and I can't find one Bible verse that agrees with my Doctrine. Doh!

 

[Timotheos]

You said "duh" two times. Be careful, Timotheus don't like that. :chuckle:

Are we calling each other stupid now?

 

[Timotheos]

Death does not mean eternal life being tormented in Hell.


Duh!

 

[Timotheos]

No, you're lying again. I never said any such thing. I believe that after death comes judgment. You don't believe that. You believe that after death comes death. The Bible does support what I believe. Your fallacy is based upon ignoring what happens after death.I do believe that a part of what God created (paradise) was used to hold people until they could gain entrance into Heaven (since there is no entrance until Jesus' Blood created the possibility of forgiveness of sin). I don't believe that exists any more.God created it. :duh:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

No one invented eternal conscious torment, it was found in Scripture. God created it when Lucifer fell from grace.You're correct, but it is only because your eyes are closed. You don't accept that you're imperfect.Were that the case, I would acquiesce to your wisdom. It isn't, obviously.I do not lie. That makes one of us.Yes, it is, if you don't follow that up with the fact that after this comes judgment. :duh:I've never said that. No one goes anywhere without God's permission. God sends sinners to hell. At judgment they'll be sent to the Lake of Fire, which I'm sure is more painful even than hell is. They go to hell to prevent them from bringing harm to those in Heaven, awaiting those they're watching from their 'witness cloud'. :thumb:

Just post the verse that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead.

Since you can't, your doctrine is false.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

You are so offensive.

And you have already lost because you couldn't produce the verse from the Bible that agrees with your misguided doctrine. Doh! I'm Wile E Coyote and I can't find one Bible verse that agrees with my Doctrine. Doh!

What are you talking about? I gave Jesus' statement to the Sadducees about God not being the God of the dead but of the living. I gave you the direct quote of the prodigal son's father. He said, "My son was dead but now is alive." Read it!!

You reported my post saying that I am mocking you for believing the bible is true. But all you are doing is denying what it says. You are imposing your modern, Westernized notions of biblical terms.

Think like an ancient Jew!

 

[Ktoyou]

If death is the end as Timotheus erroneously thinks, then there is nothing for the wicked to fear. Paul said, "Knowing the TERROR of the Lord we persuade men." But if death is the end, then there is no terror.

Timotheus neg repped me and said in his comment that being destroyed is not an incentive to sin. But once I gave the gospel to a relative of mine and he replied saying, "Death is the end so I am going to live it up."

Timotheus is living in his own little make believe world.

This is not worth reporting, it is his own opinion, and the invention is not for disagreements; moderators have better things to do than look into disagreements
Thank you.

 

[Timotheos]

What are you talking about? I gave Jesus' statement to the Sadducees about God not being the God of the dead but of the living. I gave you the direct quote of the prodigal son's father. He said, "My son was dead but now is alive." Read it!!

You reported my post saying that I am mocking you for believing the bible is true. But all you are doing is denying what it says. You are imposing your modern, Westernized notions of biblical terms.

Think like an ancient Jew!

Just post the verse that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead.

It's true that I reported an offensive post. Don't post in an offensive manner and you have nothing to worry about. Here's a thought, try to act like a decent Christian.

 

[Ktoyou]

Death does not mean eternal life being tormented in Hell.


Duh!

I think you made your point now. OK?

 

[Timotheos]

This is not worth reporting, it is his own opinion, and the invention is not for disagreements; moderators have better things to do than look into disagreements
Thank you.

Thanks, I will consider the source. his opinion is worth nothing,

 

[Timotheos]

I just realized, these guys are only trolling. I fall for that every time.

That's funny.