Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Doormat]

why would you have them suffer?

Since it's irrational to claim a swift death isn't punishment, you shouldn't expect anything but an irrational answer to your question.

 

[Aimiel]

The thing is, obviously I have given a lot of thought and meditation to scripture. I didn't always though. I used to believe in ECT as you do. Then I studied scriptures and found that ECT is not supported by scripture at all. So unlike you, I abandoned the unbiblical teaching of ECT. But since you have obviously not given much thought to this, you haven't abandoned the false doctrine that God tortures his enemies forever in hell.

I gave much thought, study, meditation, re-reading and prayerful consideration to all the doctrines that I hold to, but have yet to be shown that any of them are un-Biblical. I see Scripture stating that the lost are tormented for ever and ever, so I believe what Scripture says. Those who glean the Scriptures they like and toss out the ones that don't agree with their doctrine are the ones holding doctrines that are un-Biblical. Perhaps you need to give more thought, study and meditation to your theology. Okay?

 

[Aimiel]

Since it's irrational to claim a swift death isn't punishment, you shouldn't expect anything but an irrational answer to your question.

I would have to agree: it IS punishment, it simply isn't everlasting punishment and eternal torment is described by Scripture and cannot be explained away.

 

[Omniskeptical]

I would have to agree: it IS punishment, it simply isn't everlasting punishment and eternal torment is described by Scripture and cannot be explained away.

Why is αιων, english eon, translated as forever when only αιωνιος has such a meaning?

 

[Aimiel]

Perhaps your fellow Greek scholars might help you. I don't know Greek. I do know that God had His Word translated correct enough to where the King James Version of Scripture is relied upon by many and it is what I stick to, even though I do read the ESV and the NKJV from time-to-time; I've found that the KJV does me just fine. I believe it has yet to be proven to be the least bit un-reliable or slanted in any way.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

:
Originally Posted by freelight
Important aspects the author brings up is how most Christianity has adopted the body/soul dualism of platonic greek philosophy, where the soul is assumed as inherently immortal, where only the bodies dies, whereas the Old Testament teaches a 'wholism' of the person being a 'soul' (the mind-body-spirit complex) together as a 'unit', so that when a body dies....its 'sentient being' is no more, since the soul includes the physical body vitalized by the spirit. Once the body dies, the soul does as well, UNLESS it is resurrected to new life by some power outside of it.

=Desert Reign;3373990]Paul, that's exactly why I presently do not believe in eternal conscious torment. And you have put it very well there. Mr Plato has his repercussions in almost every area of Christian doctrine.

Exactly.

LA

 

[Desert Reign]

Why is αιων, english eon, translated as forever when only αιωνιος has such a meaning?

αιων is a noun.
αιωνιος is an adjective.

There is no difference in meaning between them. The translator just translated according to context and according to the style of the translation.

αιων simply and basically means a very long time, (like the English 'eon' or 'age' as is more common). But it does have overtones of being different as well as just being long. So, 'Life of the age' would not just mean a very long life but also one that was qualitatively better than a normal life. It has that ethereal quality to it. 'Rock of ages' has it about right. Context determines if it means 'eternal', 'everlasting' or just 'of indefinitely long duration' or whether it refers to something in this life or another life.

Hope this helps someone.

 

[freelight]

navigations......

navigations......

Exactly.

LA

I'm pioneering some perspectives from more spiritualist schools such as Theosophy, Spiritism and others exploring analogies about the nature of the soul and its destiny which are more complex than just a 'dualism' of body & soul from Platonic philosophy, but have other 'mortal' and 'immortal' components further interwoven with the soul's personality. While I recognize the main schools of ECT, 'soul-death/resurrection' and 'universalism'...there are other factors depending on terms, meanings, metaphysics, philosophy and ethics here.

Each point of view or school depends on a pre-defined base or premise upon which it builds which affects the conclusions of all logics or assumptions following from that premise, which is why the great differences between the views, further affecting scriptural 'interpretation'. For fun we can throw 'purgatory' in there too, which is a mercy-allowance provided by some to 'soften' the 'wrath' of 'God', since God's love cannot be wholly ignored, giving 'God' a pat on the back so to speak for being 'nice'

Alot also depends on our definition of 'immortal', as it meaning from a general 'dualistic' assumption that the soul is somehow eternal in nature, so continues on as a conscious entity indefinitely....or that 'immortal' means that which is of 'divine nature', God's very own nature which he bestows upon souls at some point in time when they meet the requirements of receiving such 'immortality' (whether the soul merges with divine nature and 'fuses' with 'God' at some point of divine marriage, or via a 'resurrection' process when the soul puts it on and becomes a new creation). - all the rest are more or less technical term issues and eschatology.

About soul-death:

If the complete embrace of sin and fruit of iniquity is really DEATH....then by such a law...the soul is wholly disintegrated, with no residue left except what pure energies, memory or experiences that soul did acquire as having any 'value', as these are returned back to 'God', while the soul and its potential has expired. Seems like a pretty clean and efficient method over the ECT of souls locked in agony for all eternity, being punished to no end. Looking back at such souls who chose 'suicide' by wholly embracing evil, their suffering is perfectly effected or absolved by 'death'. They do not exist to be punished beyond their sin's merits, - their 'light' as acting thru a soul-medium and potential-personality has gone out.

But if God has a plan for the salvation of all souls,...the terms and conclusion of the story (the cosmic drama) has a different end.


More analogies/observations to come :surf:



pj

 

[Lazy afternoon]

As the first death renders one unconscious, incapable of living, then it follows that the second death is even worse.--

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


LA

 

[Aimiel]

They have part in it: burning in torment for ever and ever. The 'second death' is certainly far worse than the first. The second wouldn't even be necessary if all that awaited those awakened to judgment was to be dead once more.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

They have part in it: burning in torment for ever and ever. The 'second death' is certainly far worse than the first. The second wouldn't even be necessary if all that awaited those awakened to judgment was to be dead once more.

There is nothing in the Bible to show continuous living in hellfire forever and ever.

The Bible shows punishment before destruction.

Death is death, not continuing living or suffering.

LA

 

[Aimiel]

There is nothing in the Bible to show continuous living in hellfire forever and ever.

Jesus and the angels of Revelation disagree with you, as do I.

...all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

[godrulz]

αιων is a noun.
αιωνιος is an adjective.

There is no difference in meaning between them. The translator just translated according to context and according to the style of the translation.

αιων simply and basically means a very long time, (like the English 'eon' or 'age' as is more common). But it does have overtones of being different as well as just being long. So, 'Life of the age' would not just mean a very long life but also one that was qualitatively better than a normal life. It has that ethereal quality to it. 'Rock of ages' has it about right. Context determines if it means 'eternal', 'everlasting' or just 'of indefinitely long duration' or whether it refers to something in this life or another life.

Hope this helps someone.

'day and night forever and ever' is not just a long time that ends....it is a strong Gk. phrase for endless duration.

 

[freelight]

Saving God's reputation......

Saving God's reputation......

'day and night forever and ever' is not just a long time that ends....it is a strong Gk. phrase for endless duration.

What is amazing is that you still hold on to this 'concept' of 'God' punishing souls forever and ever (to no end, purpose or resolve), which might indicate your own tendency towards vindictiveness, sadism and insanity, an egotistical sense of justice, however twisted. You might want to inspect your 'theology' and see how this 'torture' represents God's eternal mercy, love and wisdom. How does eternally punishing souls fulfill God's eternal will? How is Love satisfied therein? What kind of justice is served in keeping untold number of souls in a state of conscious perpetual unending suffering with no remedy or hope of salvation????

This is one reason many reject the traditional-brand of pop- Christianity which presents 'God' as an eternal PUNISHER, not as an eternal Lover or Redeemer. A 'god' who willfully sustains and maintains the eternal punishment and torture of sentient beings TO NO END is no 'God' at all, but a fiend.

If souls can suffer a final and eternal death (the second death), being the consequence of unrepented sin, finally judged by God because the soul is beyond repentance somehow, then that 'death' is the lawful culmination of sin's fruit. If that soul is snuffed out of existence, the punishment is final/complete. End of story. - there is no more entity to be affected in any way.

If souls however do undergo sufferings, trials and punishments, and these are corrective/rehabilitative in nature, then souls are availed continued opportunity for reform and progress.....as Love affords. Is this not Love's will? If the love and will of God ultimately triumph and all souls eventually re-turn to God, their true Home....then all trials and suffering have been natural aids and conductors leading souls back in concert with God. Every trial and error are therefore educational, accessories to salvation, seg-ways back to Love.



pj

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus and the angels of Revelation disagree with you, as do I.

...all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Nothing of ECT there.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Nothing of ECT there either.

Read the greek--

chasening aeonian. See comments futher down.

I]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and enight for ver and ever.

A separate event to that of--

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/I]

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

This passage above has no relation to the discussion of ECT because it is the smoke of their torment which goes up for ever and ever.

It can not be that the torment is for ever and ever because it is the finish of Gods wrath under the 7 vials which the beast worshippers experience while they are still living on earth, as Rev. ch. 16 describes.

Now we see your problem here because if Christ returns and sentences the wicked to everlasting punishment then it is clear that the punishments do not continue forever, but as they are killed at the battle of Armageddon time then they do not enter final judgment at the beginning of the millennium, though the beast and false prophet do.

So when your verses all come down to it, we have only--

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night fore ver and ever

So here we have only the devil for sure, and the beast and false prophet only a possability, but not certain to be tormented forever and ever, depending on the original greek, because the beast and the false prophet may well be bought up for the final judgment of Rev.20.

How do we know this?

Here--

Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So therefore the case for ECT is very very flimsy.

Especially as--

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




LA

 

[Timotheos]

I gave much thought, study, meditation, re-reading and prayerful consideration to all the doctrines that I hold to, but have yet to be shown that any of them are un-Biblical. I see Scripture stating that the lost are tormented for ever and ever, so I believe what Scripture says. Those who glean the Scriptures they like and toss out the ones that don't agree with their doctrine are the ones holding doctrines that are un-Biblical. Perhaps you need to give more thought, study and meditation to your theology. Okay?

I am happy to give more thought, study and meditation to theology. In fact I do this everyday, and every day I find confirmation in the scripture of the biblical view. I believe what scripture says and I don't "toss out the ones that don't agree". If I held your doctrine I would have to toss out a mountain of scripture. I've given that scripture before, but how about Psalm 37:20? "But the wicked will perish: The Lord’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke." How do you hold your view without tossing this one away? You have to toss out Romans 6:23 too, and Jude 7, 2 Thess 1:9, John 3:16, Ezekiel 18:6, and many others.

I'm just not willing to toss out that much scripture just to agree with your interpretation of Revelation 20:10. Incidentally, I don't toss out Rev 20:10 either. I just don't add everyone in the world to that verse. In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of any verse that could qualify as one that I've "tossed out". Which verse do you think I've tossed out? I've been asking for weeks for someone to post the verse that says "The wicked go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever", and nobody ever has. Excuse me for tossing out a verse that doesn't exist. Did you ever think that you need to examine your theology to see if it is Biblical?

 

[Desert Reign]

'day and night forever and ever' is not just a long time that ends....it is a strong Gk. phrase for endless duration.

Yes, in this case it does indeed mean for ever and ever. Of course it is specifically about the devil, the beast and the false prophet and not about people generally. For people generally, the passage refers to their fate as 'the second death'. I think this distinction is insufficient for you to build a case that they are tormented for ever and ever like the devil, the beast and the false prohpet. These three seem to have been singled out for a worse punishment than anyone else.

 

[Aimiel]

Nothing of ECT there.

Sorry, but eternal damnation can only mean torment, consciously, for ever and ever.

Nothing of ECT there either. This passage above has no relation to the discussion of ECT because it is the smoke of their torment which goes up for ever and ever.

Smoke which would dissipate, eventually, if their torment ever ceased. Since it doesn't, merely mentioning this smoke ascending for ever and ever is enough to let us know it is still taking place. Denial won't change that fact.

It can not be that the torment is for ever and ever because it is the finish of Gods wrath under the 7 vials which the beast worshippers experience while they are still living on earth, as Rev. ch. 16 describes.

God pours out His wrath into the Lake of Fire, where it continues to torment for ever and ever, since He doesn't do anything part-way.

So therefore the case for ECT is very very flimsy.

Especially as--

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your denial of the obvious proofs of ECT aside, taking one verse out-of-context to try to affirm a theory of 'poofing' people out of existence to make your idol of a god into a 'nicer' god than the way God describes His judgments is only telling us of your thinking, and not really concluding that God is true to His Word.

 

[Aimiel]

I'm just not willing to toss out that much scripture just to agree with your interpretation of Revelation 20:10.

Just how, exactly, do you interpret Revelation 20:10, to explain away the fact that it points out the eternal torment of all those cast into the Lake of Fire? I also believe the following verses, not just verse ten.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Incidentally, I don't toss out Rev 20:10 either. I just don't add everyone in the world to that verse. In fact, I'm having trouble thinking of any verse that could qualify as one that I've "tossed out". Which verse do you think I've tossed out? I've been asking for weeks for someone to post the verse that says "The wicked go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever", and nobody ever has. Excuse me for tossing out a verse that doesn't exist. Did you ever think that you need to examine your theology to see if it is Biblical?

I've seen verse fifteen... it obviously tells us that the same fate Satan has is what sinners get.

 

[Aimiel]

I think this disctinction is insufficient for youto build a case that they tormented for ever and ever like the devil, the beast and the false prohpet. These three seem to have been singled out for a worse punishment than anyone else.

What makes you think that? I don't see where that's stated, implied or inferred anywhere in Scripture.