Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Aionion fire is "biblically prepared" for exactly who and what the Master says is it prepared for, that is, "the Devil and his angels." Goats and tares are not literal human beings: this is one of the catastrophic errors in the mainstream Christian interpretation of parables in the scripture.
Rosenritter
New member
The ENGLISH versions certainly do.
There are some broken versions that even contradict themselves. Don't use those broken versions. Use a normal King James translation, the same as we've had for the past four hundred years since English was modernized. If and when you think you found a problem, then show it to me. I have had a standing challenge for about fifteen years for anyone to show me an provable error in either source text or translation or consistency (his word will not contradict itself) and that challenge has been open for anyone.
Until that time that you have a provable answer to that challenge, the scriptures don't need fixing.
Rosenritter
New member
More fantastical than God creating the world from nothingness? Consider for a moment what you're suggesting. God can create the worlds, but he wouldn't have a stake (or the ability) to applying divine inspiration where his words are concerned?
Rosenritter
New member
Because God isn't a master of language, he couldn't choose words that convey the same sense (or improve upon it) or guide the creation of the languages from their origin?
Genesis 11:9 KJV
(9) Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Rosenritter
New member
Matthew 25:44-46 KJV
(44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
(45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
How are the goats not human?
Matthew 25:32 KJV
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Those goats are separated from the nations. All nations are separated from one another, into sheep and goats. My understanding is that nations are comprised of humans.
There was another "KJV Only" person here quite a while back who made the same claims. After the truth was shown to him he abandoned his thread and never came back. You can view that thread with my beginning post here, and while you are at it you might want to review the entire thread, or at least my posts in that thread which went unanswered, (since the thread is only about three and a half pages long). Your understanding of the NEW COVENANT depends and whether or not you understand what is posted there; and you do not have the truth in your highly corrupted Textus Receptus KJV. Too bad they had absolutely no understanding of the Passover Seder when they chose the faulty Erasmus text, (the confessed humanist), which became the Textus Receptus. I have no need to argue this with you or anyone else, believe what you will, ignorance is bliss.
Then your understanding of the primary covenant is also apparently that the Israelites were supposed to slaughter literal human beings even though the Ten Commandments clearly state emphatically, "You shall not murder-kill", (period, without stipulation), and likewise that is not the teaching from the Master who expounds the Torah:
Matthew 8:28-29
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, (Girgashites), there met him two demoniacs, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one might have strength to pass by through that way.
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What of us and you, Son of Elohim? are you come here to torment us before the time?
The two demoniacs are the possessers, they are themselves the Girgashites, while in the other two Synoptic accounts it is only one from the Gerasenes, who is Legion, and in the other account it is one from the Gadarenes, who is Legion, (these are not all the same events in the same location). But we have a teaching from Peter that we are not to call any man common or "unclean", (Acts 10:28), and that passage uses the same word for "unclean" which is used for unclean spirits throughout the Gospel accounts: and if it is good enough for Peter, (and being from the Holy Spirit according to the vision), then it is good enough for me, and no doubt this is the teaching of the Master anyway.
Therefore Girgashites are not literal people but symbolism for demons and-or unclean spirits, and they always were, for they are used for teaching purposes in allegorical fashion. This means that all of the Torah now needs to be relearned according to these principles taught in the Gospel accounts and in the Testimony of the Master if you really want to understand what he teaches. And what do we find? The Girgashites are one of seven heathen-nations greater and mightier than the children of Israel, for they are demons with their attributes, (and every head has its doctrine). And therefore we are to show them no mercy: we are to make no "marriages", ("as in the days of Noah"), or "covenants" with them, we are to tear down their altars, burn their images with fire, and destroy them utterly: cut them off and choke them out, before they cut you off and choke the Word out of your heart like as in the Parable of the Sower. All of the sudden we now have the meaning of weeds, thorns, and thistles in the Parable of the Sower, and they are much the same as "tares" in the analogy and parable of the wheat and the tares. They are thorns, thistles, and weeds, including even "the cares of this world", which will choke the seed of the Word out of the soil of your heart so that you become unfruitful.
Moreover those seven heathen-nations greater and mightier than the children of Israel are seven mountains, which are seven heads, and there are seven kings, (Deut 7:1, Dan 7&8, Rev 17:9-11), and this is likewise taught in the Gospel accounts; for there are some "devils" which he says are likened to mountains, like "evil mountains" which can only come out by prayer, (and fasting in some translations). Do you have faith like a mustard seed to move mountains? It is talking about looking into the mirror at the mountain of a man staring back at you, and being fed up and willing to say, "Get behind me, Satan, you are an offense to me; for you savor not the things that be of Elohim but the things that be of MAN", (for he loves the things of carnal man). But who is willing to look into the mirror and say such a thing to himself or herself?
Matthew 17:18-21
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Some may argue that Matthew 17:21 does not appear in all manuscripts but there really is no other way to understand it and the companion passage from Mark clearly has the statement. Moreover in like manner is the fig tree as the mountain according to the Master: do you have any idea what this does to our understanding of prophetic passages such as Matthew 24 and Mark 13 which contain the prophetic parable of the fig tree? And does a fig tree have four generations? And is there a proverbial Assyrian fig tree and vine? Who is your vine? Is it the Assyrian vine or is it the true Vine? Think vines, think sustenance, think abiding in Messiah because without him, (by way of his Testimony), we can do nothing.
Matthew 21:20-21
20 And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Where have we heard about a mountain being cast into the sea? Hmmm, watching I was, and behold, as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood.
The one who "rightly divides" will not mix parables concerning devils and demons, (sin personified), with literal human beings: Esau is hairy, like a sa`iyr, that is a goat, a twin goat-devil, and that is why Elohim hates him. He is an allegory of the carnal old man nature. Elohim does not hate literal people or human beings, which are His own creation. Elohim loves you and hates your evil twin-goat enemy old man nature Esau-man.
Rosenritter
New member
There was another "KJV Only" person here quite a while back who made the same claims. After the truth was shown to him he abandoned his thread and never came back. You can view that thread with my beginning post here, and while you are at it you might want to review the entire thread, or at least my posts in that thread which went unanswered, (since the thread is only about three and a half pages long). Your understanding of the NEW COVENANT depends and whether or not you understand what is posted there; and you do not have the truth in your highly corrupted Textus Receptus KJV. Too bad they had absolutely no understanding of the Passover Seder when they chose the faulty Erasmus text, (the confessed humanist), which became the Textus Receptus. I have no need to argue this with you or anyone else, believe what you will, ignorance is bliss.
It sounds to me as if you are repeating someone else's arguments. For example, the "humanist" claim. What was called a humanist once upon a time is not the same as what is called a humanist now. I'm not digging for a stale argument elsewhere. If you want to make the claim that the scriptures "need fixing" here, then establish that here, where you have the potential for an answer.
The scriptures that I have are sufficient and without contradiction. And if we are answering the thread topic of "Is eternal conscious torment biblical" it answers with a resounding no. These are the classic scriptures that we have had since modern English was invented, and as such I think they provide a fair review of the doctrines of the English-speaking churches for the past four hundred years.
Rosenritter
New member
Daqq, without meaning to be offensive, what you said there sounds a little bit strange. Before running ahead with a story built on so many assumptions, you would need to establish those assumptions first, with your audience. Regardless, here's some problems in your logic above.
1) It is said in old time that "Thou shalt not kill" is indeed true. Yet Israel was indeed at times instructed to kill, not only those outside Israel but also within Israel. I could cite many examples here, including Exodus 19:12-13 for starters. Does this need further proving? Or do you think that if someone approached the Mount that they were transformed into a non-human? Or the rebellious child, did it become non-human different from its parents? Etc...
2) Your reasoning proceeds into the area of the term "unclean." There is more than one application of "unclean" and I think that your story is built on a misunderstanding. The Gentiles once were unclean. God has now declared them clean. There was the symbolism between the clean and the unclean animals that permeated the Jewish lifestyle that drove this point home every day of their lives.
The division between the nations of sheep and goats are the division of men and women at the end of the age, not a division between humans and devil beings the pretended to be humans. The division between wheat and tares at the end of the world is attended by the angels, but they are judged by the fruits they produce, these are the people at the end of the age, that stand small and great before the throne at the judgment.
Will wicked angels also be judged at the end of the world. Yes, they will. This is plainly shown from other scriptures. Is hell fire prepared for the wicked angels? Yes, it is. This is not debated, but neither is this the subject of the judgment with respect to every man. We are told not to fear them that destroy the body, but to fear him which destroys body and soul in hell. Everlasting life is a gift we receive, only for those that believe in Christ and can place their faith in him. Destruction is the alternative. Men too can be destroyed.
It has already been shown many times over in various places why you are incorrect. Do you really suppose the Father was pleased and blessed the sons of Levi for hacking up and murdering their own literal physical family members?
Exodus 32:22-29
22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. Acts 2:41
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
And Moses speaks of this occasion when he gives the blessing for Levi:
Deuteronomy 33:8-9 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
You are allowing your old man carnal Esau-man to interpret the scripture for you because you do not apply the Testimony of the Messiah in your doctrine and understanding:
Matthew 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to cast peace upon the land: I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36 And the enemies of a man shall be those of his own household. Micah 7:5-6, Deut 13:5-11
37 The one loving father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and the one loving son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And the one not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall destroy her: and the one destroying his soul for my sake shall find her!
The difference in your misunderstanding of the commandment not to murder-kill is between the words ratsach, (which is the word used in the Ten Commandments for physical murdering and killing), and harag, which is to slay, (used outside the Ten Commandments for supernal and spiritual things). You are the Land, O man, and the sword of spiritual warfare is sent by the Master himself upon your Land until you cut off evil from your midst, which is the will of Elohim even according to Paul and the author of Hebrews, (Heb 10:36, 1Thes 4:1-2,3,4-8), and is pleasing to the Father in His holy doctrines and teachings in the Torah. You are the house, O man, and the kingdom of Elohim is within you. The tares, evil beasts, and all sorts of various sins and evils grow up and dwell in the outer-boundaries of your temple, that is to say, the "commons-profane area" of the body-temple, which is the flesh, (Romans 7). When the Son of Man comes, in the end of your age, he will send his Messenger-Angels, the Reapers, and they will sever the wicked from among the just, (Mat 13:49), each in his or her own appointed times: and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
Rosenritter
New member
It has already been shown many times over in various places why you are incorrect. Do you really suppose the Father was pleased and blessed the sons of Levi for hacking up and murdering their own literal physical family members?
Exodus 32:22-29
22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; ( for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. Acts 2:41
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
And Moses speaks of this occasion when he gives the blessing for Levi:
Deuteronomy 33:8-9 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
You are allowing your old man carnal Esau-man to interpret the scripture for you because you do not apply the Testimony of the Messiah in your doctrine and understanding:
Matthew 10:34-39
34 Think not that I am come to cast peace upon the land: I came not to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law.
36 And the enemies of a man shall be those of his own household. Micah 7:5-6, Deut 13:5-11
37 The one loving father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and the one loving son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And the one not taking up his stake and following after me is not worthy of me.
39 The one finding his soul shall destroy her: and the one destroying his soul for my sake shall find her!
The difference in your misunderstanding of the commandment not to murder-kill is between the words ratsach, (which is the word used in the Ten Commandments for physical murdering and killing), and harag, which is to slay, (used outside the Ten Commandments for supernal and spiritual things). You are the Land, O man, and the sword of spiritual warfare is sent by the Master himself upon your Land until you cut off evil from your midst, which is the will of Elohim even according to Paul and the author of Hebrews, (Heb 10:36, 1Thes 4:1-2,3,4-8), and is pleasing to the Father in His holy doctrines and teachings in the Torah. You are the house, O man, and the kingdom of Elohim is within you. The tares, evil beasts, and all sorts of various sins and evils grow up and dwell in the outer-boundaries of your temple, that is to say, the "commons-profane area" of the body-temple, which is the flesh, (Romans 7). When the Son of Man comes, in the end of your age, he will send his Messenger-Angels, the Reapers, and they will sever the wicked from among the just, (Mat 13:49), each in his or her own appointed times: and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
Daqq, when someone begins with "I have shown you many times why you are incorrect" ... and then proceeds without plainly stating:
1) What it is that is supposedly incorrect, and
2) How this is incorrect, and
3) What is correct in its place...
And then proceeds with several hundred lines of text afterwards, that starts to resemble the "smokescreen" style response that has a lot of smoke but less substance. Would you please plainly state your meaning? Can it be stated simply? Once you state your meaning, then we can attempt to evaluate it. Not before please.
No doubt you read the scripture and misunderstand it in the same way you do with what people write. You misquoted me, I did not say what you say I said. I have over 4000 posts in this forum, and I did not say that "I have shown *you* many times", no, I said this: "It has already been shown many times over in various places why you are incorrect." That is not the same thing as what you have falsely assumed. I never said that I have shown *you* any of this, I rather said that it has been shown many times, (why you are incorrect). And again, you are incorrect because you do not pay any attention to the different meanings of words like ratsach and harag because you apparently only trust the KJV, as you have already admitted, and the KJV also cannot differentiate the difference between those words for you because they had no clue just as you have no clue for putting your trust in that rendering.
This commandment is primarily physical in meaning:
Exodus 20:13
13 You shall not ratsach-murder-kill.
H7523 רָצחַ ratsach (raw-tsach') v.
1. (properly) to dash in pieces, i.e. to slay or cause the death of (a human being).
2. (especially) to murder.
3. (by justice) to execute.
And the only other places where ratsach is used in the Torah are in Deut 5:17, which is the companion passage to the above, and in the laws concerning the cities of refuge, the avenger of blood, and the manslayer, because those portions concern physical killing and-or murder. Everywhere else you read about "killing" or "slaying", the word ratsach, (physical killing), is not used. Your favorite translators have therefore deceived you because of their own reading of the text through the carnal eyes and mind of carnal man. And because of the above things herein even the Elders of the Yhudim understood the implications:
John 18:31
31 Then said Pilate to them, Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your Torah; the Yhudim therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: [αποκτεινω]
And again herein you have another instance where the different meanings of Greek words, (also found in the Septuagint), come into play; for later they seemingly change their minds, in the surface text, but when you realize the difference in the words employed in the text, you may realize that they are using a play on words to undermine Pilate, (John 19:7, αποθνησκω, which means "to die off", like as if rotting away in prison, but they employ it deceptively when they say it to Pilate). Without doing the studies into the original languages, (just as was already said), you are walking blind and allowing king James and his court of scribes to lead you straight into the carnal man ditch.
I've always wondered, if the apostles kept falling asleep, how did they know what Jesus said in his praying??????????
Lol, that is a good question, and the kind that usually gets you either ignored or ridiculed. But what if you "saw" the Messiah praying in a night-vision of your head as you slept upon your bed? How would you relate that to others later on, (if you were willing to do so)? And where would he truly have been in such a circumstance? Perhaps he was in one of the mountains of Elohim? Olivet, Zion, or Horeb? (Sinai is of below). :chuckle:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Alot of accounts in 'scripture' are narratives provided by the writers. (story telling) - no one can really 'prove' that Jesus said those things verbatim.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
My former comments hold,...I did not deny that God can inspire souls to hear his 'voice' and/or 'write', but that the reception and later renditions of the original hearing or writings can further undergo distortion, changes and corruption to varying degrees.
I've also shared elsewhere that I dont hold to the doctrine of 'infallibility' for the Bible, since I see it as wholly 'unnecessary' to believe such, and still accept inspiration and guidance from what the book may contain. We would say again,....saying something is 'biblical' gives no credence to it necessarily, but to assign it some assumed or conventional significance, it might only provide a context for varying views such as we see in our discussion here.
glorydaz
Well-known member
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Language is relative......only eternal and universal laws/principles are fundamental
Language is relative......only eternal and universal laws/principles are fundamental
The fact still remains, which was my initial observation, that any 'translation' into another language introduces DISTORTION to some degree of the original language. The english translations of hebrew and greek we have do their best to 'approximate' an equivalent word-symbol for the original, of course,...but such introduces variables and modifications of the meaning-sense and contextual tone of the passage. Again, just an observation,.....I dont give a book the status of 'innerrant', 'perfect' or 'infallible' because only 'God' by definition would hold to such a description, but even that is 'questionable' because man is putting his own 'terms' and 'qualifications' on everything.
The LORD may confound languages, as the original distorter, dividing and confounder, and that might be his creative play and intervention into man's evolution, or diverting a direction he was going in that was not to his best interests at the time,...but we are all still evolving thru this 'confounding' and 'con-fusing' of language,....its all we got as a 'medium' of 'communication'. Pick any religious book you choose to highly value as 'inspired',...its still NOT perfect, but only a collection of word-symbols and data. - it is only the spirit of truth and wisdom, the Spirit of God that breathes and illumines the truth of any of it to your own spirit and soul,...the letter by itself is dead. But anyone who is 'spiritual' in any sense knows this, as even Paul writes about it.
Back again to ECT, a most heinous doctrine, assumed to be "biblical" which again gives it no credence. Killing, genocide, slavery, blood sacrifice, mutiliation, homophobia and more is portrayed as being 'biblical' making the term all the more obsolete.
Now if you want to use a religious book to expound and exposit true religious values, universal principles and precepts that inspire, empower and foster human brotherhood, the Fatherhood of God and the ethic of love, service, co-operation and tolerance....as theosophists and other spiritualists do...that might be a good start.
Language is relative......only eternal and universal laws/principles are fundamental
The fact still remains, which was my initial observation, that any 'translation' into another language introduces DISTORTION to some degree of the original language. The english translations of hebrew and greek we have do their best to 'approximate' an equivalent word-symbol for the original, of course,...but such introduces variables and modifications of the meaning-sense and contextual tone of the passage. Again, just an observation,.....I dont give a book the status of 'innerrant', 'perfect' or 'infallible' because only 'God' by definition would hold to such a description, but even that is 'questionable' because man is putting his own 'terms' and 'qualifications' on everything.
The LORD may confound languages, as the original distorter, dividing and confounder, and that might be his creative play and intervention into man's evolution, or diverting a direction he was going in that was not to his best interests at the time,...but we are all still evolving thru this 'confounding' and 'con-fusing' of language,....its all we got as a 'medium' of 'communication'. Pick any religious book you choose to highly value as 'inspired',...its still NOT perfect, but only a collection of word-symbols and data. - it is only the spirit of truth and wisdom, the Spirit of God that breathes and illumines the truth of any of it to your own spirit and soul,...the letter by itself is dead. But anyone who is 'spiritual' in any sense knows this, as even Paul writes about it.
Back again to ECT, a most heinous doctrine, assumed to be "biblical" which again gives it no credence. Killing, genocide, slavery, blood sacrifice, mutiliation, homophobia and more is portrayed as being 'biblical' making the term all the more obsolete.
Now if you want to use a religious book to expound and exposit true religious values, universal principles and precepts that inspire, empower and foster human brotherhood, the Fatherhood of God and the ethic of love, service, co-operation and tolerance....as theosophists and other spiritualists do...that might be a good start.
Rosenritter
New member
1. If we are being that specific, may I point out that I was not quoting you specifically with when I began "When someone begins with....?" Nor did I intend to quote you specifically. The point was that your response fit that general pattern that I have seen many times before. If you are going to poke me for not reading carefully, you should make sure that you have also read carefully, to make sure that your charge has grounding.
2. You are correct in that I have not taken care to look at the original language behind the words translated as "kill" in the English translation. Frankly it doesn't seem necessary, because the meaning is plain from context.
I am willing to consider points you have to make, and they may add additional color and background that could be of use, either in the practical sense or even for the more in-depth perspective you would gain from multiple language. But first remove that chip from your shoulder. It's hard to concentrate when it keeps bouncing around like that.