Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

.....because the 66 books of the Bible contain conflicting teachings, so some pick eternal death in the scripture because it makes sense to them and some pick Hell which is also in the scripture.

Today in the news a bunch of young children were murdered by ISIS in the UK. But that kind of teaching is sanctioned in the OT writings by the same kind of God concept by the same kind of backward people from the same place in the world. While there are lots of spiritual and historical truths in the Bible, there is also much that is untrue.

I don't care what you believe, I care what I believe.

Then you can hammer away at your keyboard all day, but only you and Freelight will give a flip what you type. I'm not trying to be a donkey... butt it's the raw truth.

You believe in GOD... even if you feel "caged" by the 66... don't you believe that God can help you pick up that old, weathered BROAD SWORD and swing it in HIS NAME?

Come on... will you do it for this one time? I'm telling you that I can discredit all of your discrediting of it. It is chocked full of defense of the LOVING CHARACTER of God.

Do you trust God to assist you in using the 66 to show that God doesn't support Eternal Torture... which is "indeed" in full contradiction of all of His ways?

If you will bite... and for this single thread you are interested... I will give you some quick keys to get up to speed in the 66 alone to defend Annihilation without effort. You're about to see an irrefutable blood bath and I'm about to bring it straight out of the 66. Look at what I just posted after the post you just quoted... If you don't see how uphill that rebuttal is... you're missing it. I'm not even at 4% usage of scripture on this topic yet. I kind of snapped and I'm unloading now.

Is the Character of God worth your usage of the Bible to defend Him... or do you simply want to use a method that throws everything you type out the door... off rip?

 

[KingdomRose]

Reply to EE #6558.....

You are mired in the muck of the same bog that Lon and others are mired in. You can't rise above the surface and see what the scriptures are really bringing out. To use Luke 16's parable to support a fiery hell is pathetic. It is obvious that it is metaphorical, bringing out the hypocrisy and irresponsibility of the religious leaders of those days, and how they will fare with God, the "Greater Abraham." There is no attempt to teach a fiery hell where people suffer pain and where just a drop of water will cool their tongue.

You will deny the reality of annihilation, "no matter what evidence there is in the scriptures," because some of us here don't believe in the "Godhead" of three Persons or that Jesus is Jehovah? How sad. You discount scriptures no matter how truthful, to cling to the idea of Jesus being God. Why? The Bible does not teach it. You can try and rip up me and others here, but you will not succeed. The scriptures are plain, and anyone who has bothered to read the posts on this thread and other threads about the Trinity and Jesus NOT being YHWH, will readily see that you are barking up a tree with nobody in it. You are a lot of hot air. And you say you are on "the highway to hell." A self-fulfilling prophecy no doubt.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Reply to EE #6558.....

You are mired in the muck of the same bog that Lon and others are mired in. You can't rise above the surface and see what the scriptures are really bringing out. To use Luke 16's parable to support a fiery hell is pathetic. It is obvious that it is metaphorical, bringing out the hypocrisy and irresponsibility of the religious leaders of those days, and how they will fare with God, the "Greater Abraham." There is no attempt to teach a fiery hell where people suffer pain and where just a drop of water will cool their tongue.

You will deny the reality of annihilation, "no matter what evidence there is in the scriptures," because some of us here don't believe in the "Godhead" of three Persons or that Jesus is Jehovah? How sad. You discount scriptures no matter how truthful, to cling to the idea of Jesus being God. Why? The Bible does not teach it. You can try and rip up me and others here, but you will not succeed. The scriptures are plain, and anyone who has bothered to read the posts on this thread and other threads about the Trinity and Jesus NOT being YHWH, will readily see that you are barking up a tree with nobody in it. You are a lot of hot air. And you say you are on "the highway to hell." A self-fulfilling prophecy no doubt.

So... I told you the facts... and you're discrediting them... as usual... I am about to raise HELL on this matter towards Annialation... and you are in no way welcome to compliment or use any of my arguments... because I count you discredited by the fact that you are "EXTRA BIBLICAL" and spoon fed by a DENOMINATION.

I tried to include you... but you are insolent to Christ as God as always. Not "a" god... He's God.

Revelation makes it clear... so please do whatever you want... but I trash any connection with you off-rip because of what I have stated.

There are TWO Master's according to JESUS... satan (Beelzibul)... and HIMSELF {J-Hova... AKA JESUS). Do the math genius. Just don't try to do me any favors by using your JW garbage to assist in this. I want no part in your supporting arguments and recognize you as "rouge" in the "adversarial" sense.

Sorry to say this... but it's da facts.

Go and learn what "Absent from the BODY... PRESENT with THE LORD" means FIRST... otherwise... let it be KNOWN THAT YOU AIN'T ally in this argument, but an actual adversary.

- EE

P.s. I can snap the back of your "State of the Dead" arguments in 1 scripture. So... ahem... unless you want that side bar... please stay out of my way here.

 

[KingdomRose]

Re. Caino's #6560:

You say that "hell" is in the Bible. Enough has been brought to light in these discussions to convince any person searching for truth that "hell" is not a literal place of torture in fire. In fact, the "hell" of the Bible is the grave and it can be readily proven. A bad translation has influenced the world for centuries to believe that "hell" is a place where people are confined to fire even though they are dead. That was Satan's original LIE, that people won't really die. (Genesis 3:4)

The King James Version (and many other versions after that) took THREE Greek words that do not mean the same thing and translated them all as "hell." The three words are as follows, with their actual meanings:

(1)Hades....mankind's grave
(2)Gehenna....the complete obliteration of a dead body
(3)Tartarus....a state of spiritual darkness (2 Peter 2:4)


There is nothing, to the honest person's eye, that speaks of eternal torture in fire. "Fire" is a metaphor for complete destruction, as when someone sets fire to, say, a piece of paper---what happens to the paper? The Bible is telling us that, just as something is burned up completely and nothing remains of it, a person who is dead and is deemed wicked by God will have nothing remaining of them.

The KJV translators took verses from places that are not the same in meaning, and constructed a doctrine out of a house of cards. Pure BIAS and no truth to it. Subsequent versions stayed with the KJV because "it's so old it must be true." A few versions today are getting back to the original Greek terms and just print the terms themselves rather than the spurious "hell."

So, once again, a fiery "hell" that tortures people who are supposed to be dead is a fallacy, and EvilEye can rant and raise hell all he wants, he is not speaking truth.


Ecclesiastes 9:5: "The dead do not know anything." (NASB)

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Re. Caino's #6560:

You say that "hell" is in the Bible. Enough has been brought to light in these discussions to convince any person searching for truth that "hell" is not a literal place of torture in fire. In fact, the "hell" of the Bible is the grave and it can be readily proven.

If you're going to pump out misuse of scripture... I can at least correct you. "you're welcome".

You are totally wrong about "grave". This is SDA JW hybrid "false state of the dead teaching".

Sheol is the correct word... and you totally glossed over "the bosom of Abraham".

Jonah "Cries out" from Sheol... or "The Grave"... and though your bible story translation is generated to deny scripture... this matter is very important and it is totally missed by you.

Also... Hell and Hades are not "Christian" words... they are "GREEK"... so... I'll address that... on down.

A bad translation has influenced the world for centuries to believe that "hell" is a place where people are confined to fire even though they are dead. That was Satan's original LIE, that people won't really die. (Genesis 3:4)

You are all over the theological map here. You really don't know your Hades from your grave... or Hell from your Gehanna... which is ironic... since they are bound together... in prophetic usage that your cult has to dogmatically redefine to prevent blowing the doors off of all of your false doctrine.

The King James Version (and many other versions after that) took THREE Greek words that do not mean the same thing and translated them all as "hell." The three words are as follows, with their actual meanings:

This is going to be fun.

(1)Hades....mankind's grave

Um... NO! Hades is Greek... as in... See More Hades Scripture and study the Greek origin of the word. There is a reason it was used... It binds "sea" to "devil" in the Leviathan sense. But... you're not really allowed to study outside of your "dogma"... so... no shocker here.

Hades was the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. After the overthrow of their father, Cronus, he drew lots with them to share the universe. He drew poorly, which resulted in becoming lord of the underworld and ruler of the dead. Nevertheless, he was not considered to be death itself, as this was a different god, called Thanatos. Greedy like his brother Poseidon, he was mainly interested in increasing his subjects, and anyone whose deeds resulted in people dying was favoured by him. Reference link here​

Hades is a NAME... and in Christian Usage... it binds to the "realm of the dead"... aka "Sheol". As in... Death's Kingdom... Thanatos and Hades are unified in Christian "Lore". The NT authors were infused with GREEK teachings and knew the intersect of the two accounts... thus the words were utilized. You can only sort the distinctions out by sorting out Jew from Greek... but then... your replacement theology would be bust and you would be scripturally broken and can the whole WatchTower garbage.

(2)Gehenna....the complete obliteration of a dead body

You are partially correct, but you are avoiding the actual link here to apocalyptic scripture that pertains to "The Day of THE LORD".

Gehenna goes way deeper than this and you are absolutly rediculous here to try to pass this off as "merely body destruction". There is much more here and unless you become scripturally honest beyond your dogma of the JW flavor... you're sunk!

(3)Tartarus....a state of spiritual darkness (2 Peter 2:4)

Again... You are void of actual understanding here. Where were the demons cast to by Jesus? The Ocean. In what? Piggy Wiggies.... What and Why? Do you know? Your state of the dead prevents you from understanding this.

There is nothing, to the honest person's eye, that speaks of eternal torture in fire. "Fire" is a metaphor for complete destruction, as when someone sets fire to, say, a piece of paper---what happens to the paper? The Bible is telling us that, just as something is burned up completely and nothing remains of it, a person who is dead and is deemed wicked by God will have nothing remaining of them.

Really? How about this?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Unless you address what is really there... your intellectual tools are lacking and easily discredited. Like I said... You ain't helping this argument!

The KJV translators took verses from places that are not the same in meaning, and constructed a doctrine out of a house of cards. Pure BIAS and no truth to it. Subsequent versions stayed with the KJV because "it's so old it must be true." A few versions today are getting back to the original Greek terms and just print the terms themselves rather than the spurious "hell."

You are wrong again... they simply thought people would revere the bible and understand it's geography, archaeology, history and biblical history of sociology. You discredit anything that proves the Deity and Oness of Jesus with YHWH / J-hova. and yeh... I'm truncating it to poke fun at the "WatchTower's" love for a Transliteration!

"Unless you use the name "Jehovah"... your prayers won't be heard..." DUMB! John 14:14 creates a fast... theological paradox for your kind real quick!

So, once again, a fiery "hell" that tortures people who are supposed to be dead is a fallacy, and EvilEye can rant and raise hell all he wants, he is not speaking truth.

Really? What's the name of TRUTH... according to the GOSPELS?

Ecclesiastes 9:5: "The dead do not know anything." (NASB)

That's talking about Christ Deniers! The Dead are the Spiritually Dead... but those very dead have a hope you know nothing about.

Anyhow... I changed my mind... keep it up and I'll use your garbage to springboard off of and sharpen up.

Spoiler

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

what we have on the annihilation side is illegitimate totality transfer of death

I'm dropping a link to a new starting point from myself and approach that followed my name link dropping post.

Some of them discussed in this very thread. -Lon

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5024591&viewfull=1#post5024591

That's towards you and W2G... It's back on... and I'm hoping for a start here.

questions 1-5 at the end flow from the post and I am looking for an answer from you or W2G to go forward.

 

[CherubRam]

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede.

The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

To translate three different Greek words as one word and deviously incorrect at that in the King James Bible, is no different than translating in the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ol´ with three different English words of "hell" (10 times), "grave" (31 times), and "pit" (3 times).

This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".

Hence, the need for an accurate Bible, one that renders Hebrew and Greek words and phrases with a high degree of precision, just as a map that can be counted on to provide exact information. Unfortunately, many Bibles follow the lead of the King James Bible, or is otherwise biased, because the trinity, along with a host of other religious teachings that are not true, that has such a strangle hold on so many.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede.

The word "Godhead" is a translation of three different Greek words, theion (meaning "divinity, deity", # 2304 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Acts 17:29, theiotēs (meaning "divinity, divine nature", # 2305 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Romans 1:20, and theotēs (meaning "deity", # 2320 in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament) at Colossians 2:9.

To translate three different Greek words as one word and deviously incorrect at that in the King James Bible, is no different than translating in the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ol´ with three different English words of "hell" (10 times), "grave" (31 times), and "pit" (3 times).

This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".

Hence, the need for an accurate Bible, one that renders Hebrew and Greek words and phrases with a high degree of precision, just as a map that can be counted on to provide exact information. Unfortunately, many Bibles follow the lead of the King James Bible, or is otherwise biased, because the trinity, along with a host of other religious teachings that are not true, that has such a strangle hold on so many.

You are one of the sharpest scripture users here... but... you deny the divinity... so even if you argue in the favor of annihilation... remember... I will be your "Adversary" and I will pick apart all of your arguments.

I'm not going to argue the TriUnity Here... but... Jesus is God... and because of this... I can't ally with you on this discussion... even though we both are taking the stance of Annihilation.

This is my final warning about this matter. I'll argue Annihilation all day long... but I won't side with someone here who denies that Jesus is God. It destroys the entire argument that scripture poses towards Annihilation to deny Jesus' Divinity in TOTALITY as the ALMIGHTY ONE!

You're pretty awesome, but I'm about to lock into an epic discussion and I have to make my stances enormously clear... because this is a serious discussion.

- EE

 

[way 2 go]

Ah, well, they're just flat out wrong. :thumb:

illegitimate totality transfer of the meaning of death is wrong and makes for long discussions :box:

 

[freelight]

Well for crying out loud..............

Well for crying out loud..............

Then you can hammer away at your keyboard all day, but only you and Freelight will give a flip what you type. I'm not trying to be a donkey... butt it's the raw truth.

Hi EE,

If I can chime in here, my catalog of past commentary and research compiled here lays some ground before, for those interested in my 'opinion' on the matter. Putting Caino and I in the same category in general is wrong, since we are different, and my path is more universal and eclectic than his,...we are brothers in the Lord of course in Spirit (respecting and honoring our Creator-Son Jesus), and both have studied and are familiar with the Urantia Papers, and share thoughts on that 'revelation' in the UB thread, - there is a more particular 'shared catagory' of interest in that subject, but even there, I have my own thoughts, interpretations and opinions on various topics. - the UB is only one religious book in my library of religious writings, there are many others, and wonderful treasures from many other religious traditions, cultures and schools of esoteric knowledge. DEITY is INFINITE. - unfortunately some think they can put Deity in a box,...that's impossible, foolish and totally unnecessary.

People with a snapshot and keyhole view of things can often make false assumptions just because they see a persons posts in one thread, topic or subject...and then put them into a particular 'catagory' or 'label' based on just one little sliver of a whole pie, - this is a sad case of marginalizing, done by the likes of GM, Lon, and others. They don't see the forest for the trees.

My view includes various aspects of universalism and soul-death, and is NOT limited to the Bible, but because I do include the Bible in my religious studies and consider all WRITINGS on the topic, my view here is just as valid, insightful and meaningful as one who has CHOSEN only to use the '66 books' as their 'golden standard', and even more because I have the benefit of a more all-inclusive vision. I've shared this in much commentary before, for those interested.

You believe in GOD... even if you feel "caged" by the 66... don't you believe that God can help you pick up that old, weathered BROAD SWORD and swing it in HIS NAME?

Just a book canonized by men,...its not 'God'. 'God' is uncontainable.

Come on... will you do it for this one time? I'm telling you that I can discredit all of your discrediting of it. It is chocked full of defense of the LOVING CHARACTER of God.

Of course there are good things in it about God being love,....in some parts.

If you will bite... and for this single thread you are interested... I will give you some quick keys to get up to speed in the 66 alone to defend Annihilation without effort. You're about to see an irrefutable blood bath and I'm about to bring it straight out of the 66. Look at what I just posted after the post you just quoted... If you don't see how uphill that rebuttal is... you're missing it. I'm not even at 4% usage of scripture on this topic yet. I kind of snapped and I'm unloading now.

Use the '66' all you like, its still a limited collection of varied writings, and you've got simultaneously the ECT bunch spitting out passages just as FAST, or any other view all having their handy little "proof-texts",...join the academy Anyone can claim some idea, belief or concept is 'biblical'. - add slavery, genocide, blood sacrifice, and more goodies to the list.

Is the Character of God worth your usage of the Bible to defend Him... or do you simply want to use a method that throws everything you type out the door... off rip?

I don't think Caino cares too much about getting the entire audience of bible-only folks to listen to his viewpoints, unless they find value and meaning in whatever he shares on the topic at hand,...in a shared forum everyone has the 'right' to share their opinion. Also if buffoons still want to go bashing and demonizing the Urantia Papers without first really knowing what they are really about by proper investigation, that's their fault of ignorance, since while on the subject,...the UB has a very detailed explanation of the soul, its path of progress/ascension and the fate of those who undergo 'death' (soul disintegration),...I too have offered my own speculations on the metaphysics involved, as a soul that undergoes the '2nd death' is absorbed back into the OverSoul of Creation. All spirit-energy returns to the Infinite Creator. The UB also reveals the most wondrous 'Paradise Trinity' and expounds on various other trinities, tri-unities and triodites thru-out the cosmos! So it it certainly NOT anti tri-unity by any means. It also has the most complete record of Jesus life and ministry extant, if not one of the most detailed (there may be other channeled works that have more, I'd have to research that again).

Anyways,...I don't think a one-book only approach is the most perfect or complete, but I do respect that this thread presents the discussion if ECT can be justified or proved within the standardized '66 books',...the thing is...since it is limited, and varied in its descriptions and terms, its a complicated matter, since religionists are interpreting terms and their meanings differently, particularly and contextually. So,....have at it. I'll review your last post, but this subject is becoming 'old hat' as it were.

All the best!

Paulie Pooh

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

illegitimate totality transfer of the meaning of death is wrong and makes for long discussions :box:

I couldn't agree more... and as "Death" has varying meanings in scripture... I believe that it is important to scripturally back each one that is being used... to defend it's intended... "Argumentative" implication... from the individual citing it.

For instance...

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5024591&viewfull=1#post5024591

Gen. 5 contextually follows Gen. 2 and 3 and implies that God is speaking of the "first death" when he speaks to Adam in Gen. 2 and 3.

He couldn't have been referring to eternal fate... because Jesus Christ has always been the intended answer to this "issue" of eternal fate... in Jesus Christ's mind.

Contextually... and in conjunction with the post I linked... Gen. 5:5 "So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died." ... seems to be ignored by you.

By arguing that DEATH means "Eternal Torture"... you are actually bending scripture.

Death can mean "Spiritual Death", Death of Flesh, and ofcoarse... it's a namsake.

I think I've waited until now to nail these matters down.

I believe in "Absent from the Body... the Soul Exists" in this "AGE"... and I believe that Satan can initiate "Carnal Death"... but only ONE has genuine claim on SOUL DESTRUCTION.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

I know you argue the meaning of "DESTROY"... but... Mt. 10:28 clearly links dust to dust death with the type of destruction that ONLY Jesus can ... ahem... provide for the SOUL.

So... I look forward to your replies to this and the former link that I am laying out very carefully.

We can't be flippant with our usages of death, now. It's going to have to be seriously scripture linked and backed by scholarly provision of context.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Hi EE,

Spoiler

If I can chime in here, my catalog of past commentary and research compiled here lays some ground before, for those interested in my 'opinion' on the matter. Putting Caino and I in the same category in general is wrong, since we are different, and my path is more universal and eclectic than his,...we are brothers in the Lord of course in Spirit (respecting and honoring our Creator-Son Jesus), and both have studied and are familiar with the Urantia Papers, and share thoughts on that 'revelation' in the UB thread, - there is a more particular 'shared catagory' of interest in that subject, but even there, I have my own thoughts, interpretations and opinions on various topics. - the UB is only one religious book in my library of religious writings, there are many others, and wonderful treasures from many other religious traditions, cultures and schools of esoteric knowledge. DEITY is INFINITE. - unfortunately some think they can put Deity in a box,...that's impossible, foolish and totally unnecessary.

People with a snapshot and keyhole view of things can often make false assumptions just because they see a persons posts in one thread, topic or subject...and then put them into a particular 'catagory' or 'label' based on just one little sliver of a whole pie, - this is a sad case of marginalizing, done by the likes of GM, Lon, and others. They don't see the forest for the trees.

My view includes various aspects of universalism and soul-death, and is NOT limited to the Bible, but because I do include the Bible in my religious studies and consider all WRITINGS on the topic, my view here is just as valid, insightful and meaningful as one who has CHOSEN only to use the '66 books' as their 'golden standard', and even more because I have the benefit of a more all-inclusive vision. I've shared this in much commentary before, for those interested.



Just a book canonized by men,...its not 'God'. 'God' is uncontainable.



Of course there are good things in it about God being love,....in some parts.



Use the '66' all you like, its still a limited collection of varied writings, and you've got simultaneously the ECT bunch spitting out passages just as FAST, or any other view all having their handy little "proof-texts",...join the academy Anyone can claim some idea, belief or concept is 'biblical'. - add slavery, genocide, blood sacrifice, and more goodies to the list.



I don't think Caino cares too much about getting the entire audience of bible-only folks to listen to his viewpoints, unless they find value and meaning in whatever he shares on the topic at hand,...in a shared forum everyone has the 'right' to share their opinion. Also if buffoons still want to go bashing and demonizing the Urantia Papers without first really knowing what they are really about by proper investigation, that's their fault of ignorance, since while on the subject,...the UB has a very detailed explanation of the soul, its path of progress/ascension and the fate of those who undergo 'death' (soul disintegration),...I too have offered my own speculations on the metaphysics involved, as a soul that undergoes the '2nd death' is absorbed back into the OverSoul of Creation. All spirit-energy returns to the Infinite Creator. The UB also reveals the most wondrous 'Paradise Trinity' and expounds on various other trinities, tri-unities and triodites thru-out the cosmos! So it it certainly NOT anti tri-unity by any means. It also has the most complete record of Jesus life and ministry extant, if not one of the most detailed (there may be other channeled works that have more, I'd have to research that again).

Anyways,...I don't think a one-book only approach is the most perfect or complete, but I do respect that this thread presents the discussion if ECT can be justified or proved within the standardized '66 books',...the thing is...since it is limited, and varied in its descriptions and terms, its a complicated matter, since religionists are interpreting terms and their meanings differently, particularly and contextually. So,....have at it. I'll review your last post, but this subject is becoming 'old hat' as it were.

All the best!

Paulie Pooh

Freelight,

I'm simply saying that if you want to make any impact here... you need to use scripture and clarify if you exalt Jesus the Son as the true and only legitimate expression of the incarnation of YHWH.

Otherwise... without scripture and connection to Jesus as YHWH... the people that are seriously scriptural here aren't going to take a thing that is said seriously.

If you want to make posts that are discounted by your countering side... it doesn't make sense to post in the first place. How can you debate... if you don't care what your opponent requires as "evidence"?

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] ... editing in... I actually do some marginalizing myself... so I'm raising my hand to be numbered with GM and such.

I don't think you're posts are invalid or disruptive... and truth be known... I have a fair study of other religious texts under my belt. Nowhere near as many as you... but I had to study some texts... because the bible refers to them by tradition, archaeology or biblical history... thus... they become contextually necessary.

My main point is that you have some valid points that deserve recognition... why not back them with scripture? There's 66 books there! And they fall together "perfectly".

I'm not saying you should cease to be you... but I'm saying... that if you have bam to bring... why not bring it from the source that your opponents recognize?

And... on that note... Christology isn't a "Scriptural Perspective". Every Author of a Book had an actual intent.

Hence my generous usage of John 5:39

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] ... I will come back to the point where we had excellent discussion, and I believe that I have a much more solid scriptural path now. But to be completely forthright... I have to work from the beginning to the "end" ... if I'm going to get it right.

I was working backwards... and that isn't worth a lick of good. Your questions remain important to me! I want to see if I can sharpen up here, before we end up "there" again.

All my best and all the Grace of Christ to you,

- EE

 

[glorydaz]

I have to say... the argument employed here is excellent... but it has holes... don't throw in the towel on this argument yet... I have to express that [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] is a "Replacement Theology" believer and thus his understanding of what is being said by him in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man is slightly tainted by that one fact.

I only agreed that "death" has different meanings depending on it's context.

As far as the rich man and Lazarus, I see that as an interim place until the Judgement. Hades, Paradise, etc. are places that are often translated as hell, which makes it as difficult to figure out as the different meanings of death, sleep, etc.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I only agreed that "death" has different meanings depending on it's context.

As far as the rich man and Lazarus, I see that as an interim place until the Judgement. Hades, Paradise, etc. are places that are often translated as hell, which makes it as difficult to figure out as the different meanings of death, sleep, etc.

You are on the money on this... we can discuss this till we are all home with Jesus... but only... when we are all at home with Jesus will we get the full scoop on all of this.

Ahem... I hope I don't have to send a doctrinal telegram from hell. Rotfl... Just kidding.

But in jest... "...It's hot down here... stop... I was wrong... stop.... Can someone mail some water? ... stop."

editing in...

"preferably ice water... stop"

 

[glorydaz]

You are on the money on this... we can discuss this till we are all home with Jesus... but only... when we are all at home with Jesus will we get the full scoop on all of this.

Ahem... I hope I don't have to send a doctrinal telegram from hell. Rotfl... Just kidding.

But in jest... "...It's hot down here... stop... I was wrong... stop.... Can someone mail some water? ... stop."

editing in...

"preferably ice water... stop"

It all got better after the Cross.

 

[Zeke]

Where is Jesus? At home or like Paul teaches in you, or is it a future among you that this deity shows up? The mystery is still one to those who claim know it! seeing the majority await that among deity to ride into town.

 

[freelight]

Freelight,

I'm simply saying that if you want to make any impact here... you need to use scripture and clarify if you exalt Jesus the Son as the true and only legitimate expression of the incarnation of YHWH.

Otherwise... without scripture and connection to Jesus as YHWH... the people that are seriously scriptural here aren't going to take a thing that is said seriously.

If you want to make posts that are discounted by your countering side... it doesn't make sense to post in the first place. How can you debate... if you don't care what your opponent requires as "evidence"?

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] ... editing in... I actually do some marginalizing myself... so I'm raising my hand to be numbered with GM and such.

I don't think you're posts are invalid or disruptive... and truth be known... I have a fair study of other religious texts under my belt. Nowhere near as many as you... but I had to study some texts... because the bible refers to them by tradition, archaeology or biblical history... thus... they become contextually necessary.

My main point is that you have some valid points that deserve recognition... why not back them with scripture? There's 66 books there! And they fall together "perfectly".

I'm not saying you should cease to be you... but I'm saying... that if you have bam to bring... why not bring it from the source that your opponents recognize?

And... on that note... Christology isn't a "Scriptural Perspective". Every Author of a Book had an actual intent.

Hence my generous usage of John 5:39

- Evil.Eye.<(I)>

Blessings in the Shekinah

We've used many passages from the Bible, and there are some from apocryphal sources too,...its all good, within a Judeo-Christian scriptural religious traditional perspective...but theres more

As noted in previous commentary,...for those wanting to stay strictly 'biblical'....its tricky, but there does appear to be more support for 'soul-death' over 'ECT' as a final destiny of those who whole-heartedly embrace iniquity, since such a full harvest of willful rebellion and the souls FULL choosing to REJECT God eventuates in distingration of personality. Now we know there are various ways to describe 'death' and sundry 'meanings' of the word, in 'nuance' and 'context'. ULTIMATELY.....when considering 'life' or 'death',....an offer YHWH makes in the OT....these 'conditions' of existence or 'non-existence' have their full realization,....life in fullness is all that life is, and there is no 'death' in the full realization thereof, whereas 'death' in the fullness that death is,...would be the utter absence and negation of LIFE! - whether this means a soul is still 'conscious' somehow, or that the 'second death' is a full disintegration of conscious existence (the cessation of individual awareness as a living soul) is one of the questions we've been surveying.

In any case,...I'll stand by and add when so moved

'Conditions' of 'life' or 'death' are relative descriptions or notions held in consciousness,....on a psychological level...what are these beyond our own denominations? Inbetween awareness and an assumed state of 'unconsciousness' there are various grades or qualities of existence...so we have a wide spectrum of conditional states to consider as far as what we call 'life' or 'death',....'blessing' and 'curses'. Even 'heaven' or 'hell' are to us now but assumed states of awareness, conditions of consciousness, and again these are subject to our own points of view about them. Anyways,....I approach this also from logic, reason, conscience and continual soul research,....its an unfolding contemplation of insight, meanings of terms and philosophy.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Blessings in the Shekinah

We've used many passages from the Bible, and there are some from apocryphal sources too,...its all good, within a Judeo-Christian scriptural religious traditional perspective...but theres more

As noted in previous commentary,...for those wanting to stay strictly 'biblical'....its tricky, but there does appear to be more support for 'soul-death' over 'ECT' as a final destiny of those who whole-heartedly embrace iniquity, since such a full harvest of willful rebellion and the souls FULL choosing to REJECT God eventuates in distingration of personality. Now we know there are various ways to describe 'death' and sundry 'meanings' of the word, in 'nuance' and 'context'. ULTIMATELY.....when considering 'life' or 'death',....an offer YHWH makes in the OT....these 'conditions' of existence or 'non-existence' have their full realization,....life in fullness is all that life is, and there is no 'death' in the full realization thereof, whereas 'death' in the fullness that death is,...would be the utter absence and negation of LIFE! - whether this means a soul is still 'conscious' somehow, or that the 'second death' is a full disintegration of conscious existence (the cessation of individual awareness as a living soul) is one of the questions we've been surveying.

In any case,...I'll stand by and add when so moved

'Conditions' of 'life' or 'death' are relative descriptions or notions held in consciousness,....on a psychological level...what are these beyond our own denominations? Inbetween awareness and an assumed state of 'unconsciousness' there are various grades or qualities of existence...so we have a wide spectrum of conditional states to consider as far as what we call 'life' or 'death',....'blessing' and 'curses'. Even 'heaven' or 'hell' are to us now but assumed states of awareness, conditions of consciousness, and again these are subject to our own points of view about them. Anyways,....I approach this also from logic, reason, conscience and continual soul research,....its an unfolding contemplation of insight, meanings of terms and philosophy.

I can "live" with this answer. All respect.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Where is Jesus? At home or like Paul teaches in you, or is it a future among you that this deity shows up? The mystery is still one to those who claim know it! seeing the majority await that among deity to ride into town.

He's At Home... In our Heart and EVERYWHERE... All... At... Once...

As the Bible plainly teaches.

Now... the topic is ECT and the bible is the recommended reference...

Okay?