Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Lazy afternoon]

See, that's an ad hominem and slight. You 'think' you are more intelligent because of what 'you' see. :nono: Not at all. It is arrogance at its worst, uneducated and ignorant arrogance that cannot possibly know any better. There is no way, to be this dogmatic, on this issue, from the scriptures. The majority has always believed torment. There are 'some' scriptures that suggest otherwise, but not enough to topple anything.

The angry tenor and accusatory doesn't help at all and never will. I see, incredibly well, the problem that others see. However, it is in my assessment shallow and hasty theology. Nobody asks OR they attack any explanation before it is out of the gate. Your comment here pushes the agenda without sensitivity or interaction. How could I possibly prove otherwise? I can. Nobody wants to hear that. Like Rosenritter said, there'd be no listening anyway. At least I'm balanced enough to know there is some weight to your side of the issue. That concession is never returned. To me? Looks like a lack of honest dealing with scriptures. Worse? It isn't a dire necessity that it should be this way.

Great, so there is hope for the saved. No need to belabor the other. You don't have to yell 'shark!' as much as 'hold on to the life-ring.'

You speak a lot of words only to show you do not believe what Jesus said.

Mat_5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat_8:25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
Mat_9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mat_18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat_26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mar_4:38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
Luk_5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk_8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk_13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk_15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk_21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Act_8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act_13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Rom_2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co_8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
2Co_2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
2Co_4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Col_2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
2Th_2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Heb_1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

LA

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 2:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God never said they could not examine the fruit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The serpent’s doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Note:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The word Hell is nowhere to be found in the original bible text.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 30:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 32:39[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"See now that I myself am He! There is no God besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Samuel 2:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 2:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For her house leads down to death, and her paths to the death of spirits. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 8:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 11:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 16:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Proverbs 23:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 56:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For you have delivered me from death and my feet from stumbling, that I may walk before God in the light of life. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Psalm 118:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The LORD has chastened me severely, but he has not given me over to death[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hosea 13:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"I will ransom them from the power of the grave ; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction?[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 33:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 18:32[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live![FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 18:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I do not take any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, I am pleased when they turn from their ways and live?[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 9:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God come with power."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 9:27[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death, but they will see the kingdom of God."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 5:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 5:7[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hebrews 6:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,… [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 5:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gehenna[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 6:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gehenna)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades (grave) gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 20:14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Then death and Hades (grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Genesis 18:25[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (hell / Gehenna. ) [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A soul consist of both body and spirit.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ecclesiastes 9:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Job 27:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[Lon]

You speak a lot of words only to show you do not believe what Jesus said.
LA

No. You, as a Unit-Arian, are used to polarizing and enjoy that status. Not so the rest of us.
You are simply asserting. There are many scriptures given in these 400 pages, and the other thread upon the same premise.

None of your verses say none existence.
Have you ever looked up the word for perish???

@glorydaz , @Rosenritter , @Lon

There are supporting verses for both sides... but the verses that suggest Total Annihilation of the wicked soul are actually greater... than the verses that suggest ECT.


- EE

"If" I 'could' be an annihilationist, I 'would' be an annihilationist. I have never been convinced.

 

[Lon]

Eternal Conscious Torment

Eternal Conscious Torment

Scriptures for ECT (first 25 pages)

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24
Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
1Corinthians 3:10-19
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 13:41, “they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend.”
annihilation harmonizes with the teaching that God’s anger endures for a moment but His love endures forever and His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 30:5, 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; 118:29; 136:10-26; Micah 7:18; Ps. 100:5; 138:8; Isa. 54:8).
“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy” (Hab. 3:2).
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sin
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
1Ti 5:6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

2 Peter 3 KJV Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”
-Mark 3:28-30
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Lon]

Annihilation scriptures

Annihilation scriptures

Scriptures annihilationists use (first 25 pages)

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.
John 3:16 Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9,
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna].
“Its streams will be turned into pitch, and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever” (Isaiah 34:9-10).
Deut. 29:20, 23; Isa 1:28, 30-31; 5:24; Ps. 1:4-6; 34:16; 37:2, 9-10,20, 38; 58:7-8; 69:28; Prov. 10:25; 12:7; 24:20; Dan. 2:35; Nahum 1:10; Mal. 4:1 Matt. 3:10-12; 7:13,19; 10:28; 13:40; John 15:6; Phil. 3:18-19; Heb. 6:8; James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:3; 3:7; Jude 7.
the soul who sins will die. Ezekiel 18:4; 28:13,16
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
Psalm 37:10 For lyet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, myou will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Ezekiel 16:53 -55-
When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

 

[Lon]

Thanks for sharing that quote from the UB, that's why I like the latest revelation of truth better.

Had little doubt.

That's what a theology degree will get-cha.

More cheap shots. If I said you stunk at lab/tech work you'd cry :baby:I've
never done so. :noway:

 

[way 2 go]

what we have on the annihilation side is illegitimate totality transfer of death

 

[glorydaz]

what we have on the annihilation side is illegitimate totality transfer of death

Could you dumb that down for me?

 

[way 2 go]

Could you dumb that down for me?

link
I learned a third principle recently, the error of “illegitimate totality transfer,” a case of taking the meaning — the sense or concept — from one part of scripture and lifting that idea and wrongly applying it to another scripture that may have some of the same words but totally different usage.

so the word death always means annihilation for those who believe annihilation only
the problem is it does not mean that



Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins.


they do not believe the spirit can live on apart from the body

Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

 

[Lon]

You were answered with scripture for authority (not Uranta nor emotional argument) invited to discuss the reasons that you said "demand a hearing" and you respond with more smack talk?

You were the one who started first, and with plenty of condescension. If we can work past it great. If not, we can ignore one another.

Is this what they taught you with the degree that you said you paid for?

You are the one trying to one-up me. I would have likely met you half-way. There is illusion of either of us changing to the other. I don't really care about that. I care about what is true. It seems you are skittish around troublesome passages and try to explain them away. That is at least how it appears. I've covered some of that in the 25 page scripture summation, and we'll see, perhaps.

Acts 4:13 KJV
(13) Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

I get this a lot. Imho, I was better studied than you 'before' I paid, even back then. You keep 'thinking' you are seeing holes but absolutely not.
I either get to leave you in your ignorance, or attempt to show you, your stubbornness is actually NOT as good as Peter and John. That you claimed it? Of course. I see it all the time and rarely true. Those were Apostles. You? Me? :nono: I don't use verses like this. I know better. Instead 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:15 If one does, they will be. If no, they won't.

P.S. Perhaps you might want to look up the meaning of "ad hominem" if you're going to be tossing that term about. You haven't been the targets of personal attacks or name calling. If you need examples, you might look in that quoted text above.

YOU were doing it first. You came to the rescue then started the snarky comments about my 'supposed' education. Your bad. Glory head smacked because I was doing it back to you, but I didn't start it.

1. I don't have to assume that God is love. We are told plainly in the epistle of John, "God is love."

:doh: Means 'to take on a truth.' Do you realize you 'took on' 1 John 4:16 when you believed it? We are getting petty about things.

2. God tells us eternal torment is not a part of his future universe. It is written, "every knee shall bow" and "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Can you see the other side of this? Nobody of the millions on this other side ever told you what they think it means and why?

3. Nothing evil about relating a parable that prophesies the favor of the Jew and Gentile changing places.

I would never have said He did.

4. It's not my decision to decide that Christ's stories were parables. The gospels tell us that ALL of Christ's stories were parables. You're arguing with scripture again, or at least choosing to ignore what it says straight out (again.)

Yes, it is your decision. Luke 16:1 He also said to the disciples... Have you never been over this material with a pastor or Bible teacher?
Why don't you know the rebuttal already? You've misread a few dozen things I've written as well. I believe, if you are going to try to be this vested, you should show yourself an approved workman. Did you realize you didn't know Luke 16:1? Were you going to tell me the Pharisees showed up? Luke 16:14 Then were you going to tell me Luke 16:18 was a parable? :think: Luke 17:1 And he said to his disciples...

5. "They are solid observations that I believe demand a hearing."

Yep. I line-item my response so I can prove it as well. You have a huge group of Protestant churches, all that are more than capable of defending and showing why they believe you are wrong. You oddly, jump on me like you can win but it isn't me you have to convince. If you could, I'd be on board. I've been over this a number of times. Against @EvilEye, I believe the scriptures point opposite. My answer to everybody is simply this: God is good. If there is a hell, it is either necessary, or God didn't create it. If people are not annihilated, somehow such is necessary. Why? Don't know, not God. I never want to lie to anybody on the other side either. How will you feel if you tell atheists they are going to be wiped out, so "don't worry about it" and then they are in an eternity and you encouraged them there by what you believed, but was a lie? Me?? I'd rather say: God is God and I am not, than make this kind of mistake/lie. It'd be a wicked on for overstepping my bounds. Rather, I say "most believe this, and it has scriptural presence. A small group believes this other, and they have some scriptural presence." That's my answer.

Lon, you haven't given an honest hearing to much of anything so far.

Not true. No scripture you've given has been a surprise.

But you deserve the same courtesy I said we should extend to Caino.

Not sure I deserve anything. Rather, I believe scripture and the church should be listened to. Most don't get that far.

What do you have here that you think needs hearing?

400 pages. Forget the arguments. Look at the scriptures and bring them before God.

Shall we list analysis side by side? Here's the topics we have so far that you haven't deemed to discuss so far:

For starters, we have the statement (twice) in the gospels that Jesus did not speak to the multitude without parable. It says "without a parable he spoke not unto them."

It does not give a qualifier, therefore one isn't there, or one is implied. According to Luke 16:1;17:1, He wasn't talking to the multitude. You have a bad habit (imho) of taking one meaning and running with it, regardless of what may NOT be true. I believe that is why Paul said you should share all things with your teacher. Many on here are doing the lone-ranger and it will ever be to their own detriment.

Second, it spoken in the context of other parables, each that start with the similar form of introduction.

Look in all your bibles. Does ANY one of them call it 'the parable of the rich ruler?' :think:

Third, the symbols seem absolutely hand-picked for targeting the Pharisees such that it is hard to argue coincidence.

I hit this in the 10 or so reasons. It perhaps could be used as one of several reasons you might believe it a parable.

Fourth, the setting is obviously fictional, as it would contradict established scripture otherwise.

I disagree. Protestants disagree. Your bibles all disagree. They are very careful NOT to call this a parable. Didn't notice?

Fifth, were it not a parable then it preaches a very strange doctrine, that salvation comes from having received "bad things" during ones lifetime. A salvation by karma, not by repentance unto Christ.

If I can correct you. This is 1) before the Lord Jesus Christ's Death Burial and Resurrection. 2) This is to Jews who were under the Law. The rich man neglected the Law, his duty to God, and duty to man.

If you can talk reasonably then yes, I'm willing to give your points a fair hearing.

"Reasonable" has to be upon the premise that either of us can treat the other civilly.

Don't expect me to chase about the internet for them.

I go to websites. I realize many do not. My expectation is that you are teachable when you are wrong. I don't claim annihilationists are wrong. RATHER, a lot of your hasty statements and conclusions are wrong and frankly, from inexperience. You do this with GloryDaz also. I haven't seen you do this with others to date.

Say what you will say here, and I'll hear you out.

But having "ten reasons" that you protect by not putting them out for analysis would seem somewhat suspect.

1) Unlike any other parable, real men were named. Abraham, real person. Lazarus, real name, even if we don't know him.
2) No parable introduction is given. Many parables were started as simile or metaphor by comparison. That does not exist in this story.
3) Real places are mentioned. The Lord Jesus Christ mentions the bosom of Abraham
4) Parables follow an analogy by simile or parable pattern and at the end, an application is given
5) The Lord Jesus Christ pulled His disciples aside and explained to them what the parable meant later
this was not the case.
6) Luke 16:1;17:1, clearly the Lord Jesus Christ was not talking to the crowds. He spoke plainly to His disciples
7) The description of the real place between paradise and fire, takes time to explain a place that the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't do
with the settings of parables, laying out how that place exists with the chasm as well.
8) Parables do not deal directly with the afterlife, but are comparative to earthly living now and/or spiritual principles to apply
9) The parable fits facts concerning the realities of life and death, as given in both the OT. and NT. That doesn't mean you agree. It simply means it actually fits with expectation of the grave and a place that would hold those set for heaven, and those not.
10) It is the only story that speaks outside of common experience and understanding of the peoples around Him
11)Moses is also specifically mentioned, specifically and with detail uncharacteristic, in dialogue that you'd seen a parable
12) This would be the only 'parable' that taught an error about important things that mattered.
13) The Pharisees and Sadducees debated hotly (kind of like you and I) the difference between dying and being nothing, or living after death.
Because of that, it should be expected that the Lord Jesus Christ would preach consistently, by necessity, even if it were a parable, only the truth about life-after-death.

There are quite a few more. Some of them discussed in this very thread. -Lon

 

[glorydaz]

so the word death always means annihilation for those who believe annihilation only
the problem is it does not mean that



Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”


Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins.


they do not believe the spirit can live on apart from the body

Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Ah, well, they're just flat out wrong. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

1) Unlike any other parable, real men were named. Abraham, real person. Lazarus, real name, even if we don't know him.
2) No parable introduction is given. Many parables were started as simile or metaphor by comparison. That does not exist in this story.
3) Real places are mentioned. The Lord Jesus Christ mentions the bosom of Abraham
4) Parables follow an analogy by simile or parable pattern and at the end, an application is given
5) The Lord Jesus Christ pulled His disciples aside and explained to them what the parable meant later
this was not the case.
6) Luke 16:1;17:1, clearly the Lord Jesus Christ was not talking to the crowds. He spoke plainly to His disciples
7) The description of the real place between paradise and fire, takes time to explain a place that the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't do
with the settings of parables, laying out how that place exists with the chasm as well.
8) Parables do not deal directly with the afterlife, but are comparative to earthly living now and/or spiritual principles to apply
9) The parable fits facts concerning the realities of life and death, as given in both the OT. and NT. That doesn't mean you agree. It simply means it actually fits with expectation of the grave and a place that would hold those set for heaven, and those not.
10) It is the only story that speaks outside of common experience and understanding of the peoples around Him
11)Moses is also specifically mentioned, specifically and with detail uncharacteristic, in dialogue that you'd seen a parable
12) This would be the only 'parable' that taught an error about important things that mattered.
13) The Pharisees and Sadducees debated hotly (kind of like you and I) the difference between dying and being nothing, or living after death.
Because of that, it should be expected that the Lord Jesus Christ would preach consistently, by necessity, even if it were a parable, only the truth about life-after-death.

There are quite a few more. Some of them discussed in this very thread. -Lon

:thumb:

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Proportional Punishment before Aniahalation is taught throughout the Bible.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

LA

 

[Caino]

Had little doubt.

More cheap shots. If I said you stunk at lab/tech work you'd cry :baby:I've
never done so. :noway:

You're like Trump, you say all sorts of snarky things to these people on TOL from your presumptive spiritual hilltop and then whine and cry persecution when someone dishes it back to ya.

I actually admire your qualities such as loyalty to what you believe is the truth.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Ah, well, they're just flat out wrong. :thumb:

I have to say... the argument employed here is excellent... but it has holes... don't throw in the towel on this argument yet... I have to express that [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] is a "Replacement Theology" believer and thus his understanding of what is being said by him in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man is slightly tainted by that one fact.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Scriptures for ECT (first 25 pages)

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24
Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
1Corinthians 3:10-19
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 13:41, “they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend.”
annihilation harmonizes with the teaching that God’s anger endures for a moment but His love endures forever and His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 30:5, 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; 118:29; 136:10-26; Micah 7:18; Ps. 100:5; 138:8; Isa. 54:8).
“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy” (Hab. 3:2).
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sin
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
1Ti 5:6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

2 Peter 3 KJV Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”
-Mark 3:28-30
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So ... Excellent ... I've always appreciated your ability to acknowledge the scriptures used by both sides. I realize you've stated you are out of this argument and accept if this is so... but I believe I want to go ahead and tackle this one. You are more than welcome to counter anything I say.

Scriptures annihilationists use (first 25 pages)

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.
John 3:16 Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9,
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna].
“Its streams will be turned into pitch, and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever” (Isaiah 34:9-10).
Deut. 29:20, 23; Isa 1:28, 30-31; 5:24; Ps. 1:4-6; 34:16; 37:2, 9-10,20, 38; 58:7-8; 69:28; Prov. 10:25; 12:7; 24:20; Dan. 2:35; Nahum 1:10; Mal. 4:1 Matt. 3:10-12; 7:13,19; 10:28; 13:40; John 15:6; Phil. 3:18-19; Heb. 6:8; James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:3; 3:7; Jude 7.
the soul who sins will die. Ezekiel 18:4; 28:13,16
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
Psalm 37:10 For lyet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, myou will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Ezekiel 16:53 -55-
When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

All respect and a promise of a solid evaluation of both sides of the coin you have brought forward. It is inescapable... as Satan and Hell go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly ... I think I'm going to have to unleash the Typification here.

Much of the "Reformed" community has slid by without the Adversary being known in scripture... but I do believe that this thread will demand a sincere address on this matter.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Scriptures for ECT (first 25 pages)

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mat 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46).
Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Matt 5 [22] "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court ; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court ; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5 [2]9 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 25 [41]"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ;
Matt 25 [46] "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
James 3[6] And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity ; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2 Peter 2[4] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment ;
Isaiah 66[24] "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched ; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24
Mark 9 [43] "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off ; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.] 47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. 49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.
Jude 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
There is still a place called hell, and people are going to burn there forever and ever.
Rev 14 [11] "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
1Corinthians 3:10-19
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 13:41, “they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend.”
annihilation harmonizes with the teaching that God’s anger endures for a moment but His love endures forever and His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 30:5, 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; 118:29; 136:10-26; Micah 7:18; Ps. 100:5; 138:8; Isa. 54:8).
“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy” (Hab. 3:2).
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sin
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
1Ti 5:6 but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

2 Peter 3 KJV Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished
“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”
-Mark 3:28-30
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Scriptures annihilationists use (first 25 pages)

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Jesus Christ is eternal life.
John 3:16 Romans 6:23, 2 Thess 1:9,
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [Gehenna].
“Its streams will be turned into pitch, and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever” (Isaiah 34:9-10).
Deut. 29:20, 23; Isa 1:28, 30-31; 5:24; Ps. 1:4-6; 34:16; 37:2, 9-10,20, 38; 58:7-8; 69:28; Prov. 10:25; 12:7; 24:20; Dan. 2:35; Nahum 1:10; Mal. 4:1 Matt. 3:10-12; 7:13,19; 10:28; 13:40; John 15:6; Phil. 3:18-19; Heb. 6:8; James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:3; 3:7; Jude 7.
the soul who sins will die. Ezekiel 18:4; 28:13,16
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
Psalm 37:10 For lyet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, myou will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish;
And the enemies of the Lord,
Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
Into smoke they shall vanish away.
Ezekiel 16:53 -55-
When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

AMEN....to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. It can't be any clearer. Our body is merely our temporary TENT. When we put it off, we will still not be found naked for God will supply another with which we will be clothed, and at the Resurrection of the Just, we will receive our new spiritual body...as Paul explains in 1 Cor. 15:38, 44

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

Those IN CHRIST will still be resurrected. Resurrection is of the body....we, too, shall have a resurrected body just as our Lord did.




I tend to avoid these discussions because I'm torn on this issue.

Excellent! I appreciate that you maintain intellectual and scriptural flexibility in this discussion... as scripture supports both sides of the argument quite clearly.

I will keep this in mind as I move forward. You are situated to provide impartial input that isn't postured here. I'll probably repeat this in the next 5 minutes.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

There is a bit of intellectual dishonesty going on in this discussion.

The first portion of the inaccuracy comes from [MENTION=10835]Caino[/MENTION] ... by basing your arguments off of the Ub ... and simultaneously discrediting the 66 ... whether you like it or not... you're instantly discredited in this discussion.

You understand the implications of the crowd that suggest that God is capable of "allowing" "ECT"... but you are too stubborn to throw away a "manmade" book that is clearly discredited in serious debate. If you really are serious about defending the "God is Love of the Matter"... You need to throw out the Bible discrediting and start searching scripture.

The Annihilation argument is supported deeply in scripture so staunchly ... that it is pointless to use any other reference. Are you building an argument to convince yourself... or do you sincerely want to defend the character of Christ? You don't use a reference that isn't taken seriously in debate like this... and you absolutely have to use scripture.

I will tell you a secret. The few texts and arguments that the ECT individuals that absolutely have to prove... are so limited that they end up on the fence in a sincere trade of scripture. They become frustrated, hostile and repetitive when approached with the biblical view on the matter. Why in the hell would you and [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] use any other tactic than the actual 66 books for argument? It discredits you both from the get go on this topic when your arguments are void of actual scripture.

[MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] is actually getting flamed a couple of times because they are staunchly using the 66 books and frustrating the "God is Capable of Wickedness" crowd by doing so. I'm not kidding. {Caino and Freelight), You're not helping anyone here except yourselves... unless you're actually willing to acknowledge the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Authority of scripture.

[MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION]

You are my next focus...

You argue that the "Annihilation" crowd argues that death is "always permanent". I lean towards "Annihilation" like [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] and I KNOW that death has "Many" different meanings. So I'll address this much more clearly in my future posts.

You are generalizing to bolster your perspective, because you embrace ECT without question. You look for it in scripture, and are unwilling to look for anything else because I'm certain you have outright accepted that God is devoid of Mercy in some instances. I intend to allow you to grind my arguments out over the coarse of this matter and see if I can express my perspective towards Annihilation in a way that is more clear and brings a clear outline to my arguments that link to scripture and your understanding.

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... you were blasting [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] earlier and they were blasting you ... and honestly ... I have to say... it's not in step with your typical debate style... I'm not sure what happened. Rosenritter has gotten animated before... but I'm wondering why this particular "doctrine" is so close to home for you? I have warned you about the necessity to buffer between Satan and Jesus. It was our first communication. This is one of the results of removing "free will" from the equation... ECT becomes a quick theological purchase when you begin to "Tamper" with the revealed "Loving Nature of Jesus".

I'm going to lay out the primary support for annihilation and the scripture support for it that is buried in intentional abandon of "All Scripture".

1) The usage of Death and it's various meanings in scripture
2) The necessity of recognizing "Typification of the Devil"
3) The Adam and Satan argument... and how scripture clearly says that "Adam DIED".
4) Eternal LIFE for the SAVED ... DEATH for the Wicked ... The clear Contrast that is cited, dismissed and ignored
5) Annihilation passages are far beyond what [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] cited FROM THE FIRST 25 PAGES.
6) Gathering all passages that refer to "Hell" and connecting them to the Jewish structure
7) Intellectual Honesty and the revealed "Character of God".
8) Unyielding Scriptural Honesty
9) Recognition of BOTH arguments
10) Clear refutation with clearly linked scripture that binds to "Eschatology" in the OLD and NEW testament
11) Is God Love and does Love TORTURE FOR ETERNITY?
12) LIFE is not just "existing"... it is "Being". Eternal LIFE means "Eternal Being"... not Eternal Existing Death... otherwise... you are simply lying to God and saying that Eternal life is granted to the "Living" and the "Dead"... in the SPIRITUAL sense.
13) Satan's fate as laid out in SCRIPTURE....

So.... here goes... since [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] ... and [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] are demanding that a person is unscriptural if they side against ECT ... and [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] is the only individual here that is decided on Annihilation and also... (I know Way 2 go and Lon do too... on this... but I am pointing out the systems of belief on [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION]'s side) fully believes in "Grace" ... "Faith Alone",.. "The Divinity of Jesus" and "Absolute Adherence to Scripture" as [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... and [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] ... I'm going to go straight [MENTION=18263]Nameless.In.Grace[/MENTION] on this and side with [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] here.
[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] are outstanding mods for this discussion... as they are mostly impartial to this topic. They represent both of our arguments and their input is brought forth from a sincerely "Impartial" perspective.

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] , [MENTION=10835]Caino[/MENTION] , [MENTION=16505]CherubRam[/MENTION] , [MENTION=10015]Lazy afternoon[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] ... I'm sincerely sorry to say this... but... no matter how solid your arguments are for annihilation ... your denial of the "Godhead" as Jesus is YHWH is going to set you up to be used against this argument. [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] will never consider a single word you type ... because you are outside of the recognition of Php. 2:9f, 11 and John 10:30. I'm not saying this to hurt you or upset you... but I'm saying it as a "FACT" ... your witness here is blown ... because of your denial of the Tri-Unity. You don't think it matters... but if you understood how theologically discrediting it is deny the Supreme Divinity of Jesus Christ and how important the recognition of Father and Son as ONE is to defend the LOVING NATURE of God... you would reconsider your position .. if not for this single argument... which is a BIGGY.

Firing up my LapTop and about to get real here,

- [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]

Remember ... I sincerely respect all of you... so be prepared... I'm digging in here and I think I'm going to nurse this discussion for a bit.

Well... I guess ... It's time to RAISE SOME HELL

The beginning of the carnage starts HERE... Link Here.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Paging Way 2 Go and (or) Lon

Paging Way 2 Go and (or) Lon

There's no easy way to do this... so I've got to grab somewhere and "Begin".

The Death Argument is as good a place as any.

Types of "Death" and "Meanings of Death".

The most forgotten MEANING of "Death" in scripture... {Beelzibul) ... This name is the closest to the actual name that is known for the Dark one... it means "Lord of the FLIES" ... which is a slur for DEATH...

in other words... 1 Cor. 15:54f, 56 and Heb. 2:14 are pinion for this discussion as DEATH is indeed a NAME for Satan. Cha-Ching... the pain is about to be brought... ECT supporters... and I mean pain in the literal Destroyer sense. If you're going to go traditional on the HELL thing... you better know "Hell"'s "self-proclaimed" "king". Do you know the scriptures? Do you know ALL the scripture about death... or are you building your ECT doctrine without the "keyless" ingredient?

Spoiler

Mark 3:22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons."

Luke 11:15 But some of them said, "He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons."

Luke 11:18-19 "If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. "And if I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? So they will be your judges.

2 Kings 1:2 And Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber which was in Samaria, and became ill. So he sent messengers and said to them, "Go, inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I will recover from this sickness."

Matthew 10:25 "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."

DEATH in Scripture...

1) Name for Satan Himself... (Angel of Death) ... AKA Death... incarnate

2) The Dust returning to Dust

(Gen. 3:19 ...
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”)​

Who does the "dusting"?

(Gen. 3:14 And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.)​

and ... uh-oh... [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... you're both off on a bad foot already... (Or should I say "Heal"... Gen. 3 pun)... In this sacred context of "Death"... Beelzibul himself is called out to have "Life" by Elohim HEEM-Self... #Oh No! What now?

Did you see it? "All the days of your LIFE". Are you going to question the Almighty's usage of the word LIFE here? It's in the context of the entire DEATH discussion in Gen. 2 and 3 ... and Satan himself is deemed by God to have LIFE. Do you want to argue that Beelzibul himself has "Spiritual Life" and his "Tempting" was of God?

How about a little ditty I like to call "The Book of James"....

Let's stop here for a second...

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man.​

[MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... What now?

Did Satan TEMPT upon God's Desire?

Is God an Author of Confusion?

Is James a legitimate Bible book and Can God deceptively Puppet the Devil and PAWN His "Tempting" off "through" Beelzibul... and say... "I don't tempt"... or was the Devil already rouge?

What say you both? Because this HEAT and Kitchen is only going to get HOTTER... from here forward.

I sure hope you know your "false morning star" scripture... because I believe it's going to "Destroy" your assertions about "Hell" ... and I haven't even gotten to the Gehenna of the matter yet. [MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] and I didn't even delve in there. I just referenced it and [MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] searched scripture sincerely... but I never fully dropped the scripture there. I'm past the point of holding back now... and I have considered this matter very carfully.

Are you (Lon and Way 2 Go) both prepared to go full blown archaeology, biblical geography, eschatology and scripture study on these matters?

I'm not sandbagging any more... on this topic. I feel okay dropping all of these cards on the table.

but... first... Please address these questions...

1) Did Satan TEMPT upon God's Desire?

2) Is God an Author of Confusion?

3) Is James a legitimate Bible book and Can God deceptively Puppet the Devil and PAWN His "Tempting" off "through" Beelzibul... and say... "I don't tempt"... or was the Devil already rouge?

4) All the days of your LIFE. Are you going to question the Almighty's usage of the word LIFE here?

5) It's in the context of the entire DEATH discussion in Gen. 2 and 3 ... and Satan himself is deemed by God to have LIFE. Do you want to argue that Beelzibul himself has "Spiritual Life" and his "Tempting" was of God?

Way 2 Go and Lon ... I'll wait to go forward until I have answers from one of you. So... I'm Theatrically waiting... P.s. This is going to get BLOODY.

Oh... and reference...

Beelzebub (Gr. form Beel'zebul), the name given to Satan, and found only in the New Testament ( Matthew 10:25 ; Matthew 12:24 Matthew 12:27 ; Mark 3:22 ). It is probably the same as Baalzebub (q.v.), the god of Ekron, meaning "the lord of flies," or, as others think, "the lord of dung," or "the dung-god."​

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/beelzebub/

 

[Caino]

There is a bit of intellectual dishonesty going on in this discussion.

The first portion of the inaccuracy comes from [MENTION=10835]Caino[/MENTION] ... by basing your arguments off of the Ub ... and simultaneously discrediting the 66 ... whether you like it or not... you're instantly discredited in this discussion.

You understand the implications of the crowd that suggest that God is capable of "allowing" "ECT"... but you are too stubborn to throw away a "manmade" book that is clearly discredited in serious debate. If you really are serious about defending the "God is Love of the Matter"... You need to throw out the Bible discrediting and start searching scripture.

The Annihilation argument is supported deeply in scripture so staunchly ... that it is pointless to use any other reference. Are you building an argument to convince yourself... or do you sincerely want to defend the character of Christ? You don't use a reference that isn't taken seriously in debate like this... and you absolutely have to use scripture.

I will tell you a secret. The few texts and arguments that the ECT individuals that absolutely have to prove... are so limited that they end up on the fence in a sincere trade of scripture. They become frustrated, hostile and repetitive when approached with the biblical view on the matter. Why in the hell would you and [MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] use any other tactic than the actual 66 books for argument? It discredits you both from the get go on this topic when your arguments are void of actual scripture.

[MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] is actually getting flamed a couple of times because they are staunchly using the 66 books and frustrating the "God is Capable of Wickedness" crowd by doing so. I'm not kidding. You're not helping anyone here except yourselves... unless you're actually willing to acknowledge the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Authority of scripture.

[MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION]

You are my next focus...

You argue that the "Annihilation" crowd argues that death is "always permanent". I lean towards "Annihilation" like [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] and I KNOW that death has "Many" different meanings. So I'll address this much more clearly in my future posts.

You are generalizing to bolster your perspective, because you embrace ECT without question. You look for it in scripture, and are unwilling to look for anything else because I'm certain you have outright accepted that God is devoid of Mercy in some instances. I intend to allow you to grind my arguments out over the coarse of this matter and see if I can express my perspective towards Annihilation in a way that is more clear and brings a clear outline to my arguments that link to scripture and your understanding.

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... you were blasting [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] earlier and they were blasting you ... and honestly ... I have to say... it's not in step with your typical debate style... I'm not sure what happened. Rosenritter has gotten animated before... but I'm wondering why this particular "doctrine" is so close to home for you? I have warned you about the necessity to buffer between Satan and Jesus. It was our first communication. This is one of the results of removing "free will" from the equation... ECT becomes a quick theological purchase when you begin to "Tamper" with the revealed "Loving Nature of Jesus".

I'm going to lay out the primary support for annihilation and the scripture support for it that is buried in intentional abandon of "All Scripture".

1) The usage of Death and it's various meanings in scripture
2) The necessity of recognizing "Typification of the Devil"
3) The Adam and Satan argument... and how scripture clearly says that "Adam DIED".
4) Eternal LIFE for the SAVED ... DEATH for the Wicked ... The clear Contrast that is cited, dismissed and ignored
5) Annihilation passages are far beyond what [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] cited FROM THE FIRST 25 PAGES.
6) Gathering all passages that refer to "Hell" and connecting them to the Jewish structure
7) Intellectual Honesty and the revealed "Character of God".
8) Unyielding Scriptural Honesty
9) Recognition of BOTH arguments
10) Clear refutation with clearly linked scripture that binds to "Eschatology" in the OLD and NEW testament
11) Is God Love and does Love TORTURE FOR ETERNITY?
12) LIFE is not just "existing"... it is "Being". Eternal LIFE means "Eternal Being"... not Eternal Existing Death... otherwise... you are simply lying to God and saying that Eternal life is granted to the "Living" and the "Dead"... in the SPIRITUAL sense.
13) Satan's fate as laid out in SCRIPTURE....

So.... here goes... since [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] ... and [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] are demanding that a person is unscriptural if they side with ECT ... and [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] is the only individual here that is decided on Annihilation and fully believes in "Grace" ... "Faith Alone",.. "The Divinity of Jesus" and "Absolute Adherence to Scripture" as [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... and [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] ... I'm going to go straight [MENTION=18263]Nameless.In.Grace[/MENTION] on this and side with [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] here.
[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13955]glorydaz[/MENTION] are outstanding mods for this discussion... as they are mostly impartial to this topic. They represent both of our arguments and their input is brought forth from a sincerely "Impartial" perspective.

[MENTION=1746]freelight[/MENTION] , [MENTION=10835]Caino[/MENTION] , [MENTION=16505]CherubRam[/MENTION] , [MENTION=10015]Lazy afternoon[/MENTION] , [MENTION=17493]KingdomRose[/MENTION] ... I'm sincerely sorry to say this... but... no matter how solid your arguments are for annihilation ... your denial of the "Godhead" as Jesus is YHWH is going to set you up to be used against this argument. [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION] will never consider a single word you type ... because you are outside of the recognition of Php. 2:9f, 11 and John 10:30. I'm not saying this to hurt you or upset you... but I'm saying it as a "FACT" ... your witness here is blown ... because of your denial of the Tri-Unity. You don't think it matters... but if you understood how theologically discrediting it is deny the Supreme Divinity of Jesus Christ and how important the recognition of Father and Son as ONE is to defend the LOVING NATURE of God... you would reconsider your position .. if not for this single argument... which is a BIGGY.

Firing up my LapTop and about to get real here,

- [MENTION=18375]Evil.Eye.<(I)>[/MENTION]

Remember ... I sincerely respect all of you... so be prepared... I'm digging in here and I think I'm going to nurse this discussion for a bit.

Well... I guess ... It's time to RAISE SOME HELL

.....because the 66 books of the Bible contain conflicting teachings, so some pick eternal death in the scripture because it makes sense to them and some pick Hell which is also in the scripture.

Today in the news a bunch of young children were murdered by ISIS in the UK. But that kind of teaching is sanctioned in the OT writings by the same kind of God concept by the same kind of backward people from the same place in the world. While there are lots of spiritual and historical truths in the Bible, there is also much that is untrue.

I don't care what you believe, I care what I believe.