Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Nah. Nothing more from me. Read your Bible. Go buy a book on Calvin.
lifeisgood
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I think you meant, lifeisgood as we were talking about David.
lifeisgood
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Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire."
The word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
"unquenchable, inextinguishable"2
"not quenched"3
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."4
"unquenched, unquenchable"5
"that cannot be put out"6
"inextinguishable"7
Is hell eternal? Yes it is.
Are its fires without end? Yes they are.
Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really.
But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).
https://carm.org/hell-eternal
Matt. 3:12 says, "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire."
The word "unquenchable" is asbestos in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong's lexicon, it means "unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned."
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word "unquenchable," which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
"unquenchable, inextinguishable"2
"not quenched"3
"pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out" - "unquenchable."4
"unquenched, unquenchable"5
"that cannot be put out"6
"inextinguishable"7
Is hell eternal? Yes it is.
Are its fires without end? Yes they are.
Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Not really.
But, hell is real. This is all the more reason to preach the gospel. Jesus said,
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire," (Matt. 18:8).
https://carm.org/hell-eternal
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Ben Masada
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Is the Doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment Biblical or not?
Absolutely not! There is nothing eternal about man but death if you read Psalms 49:11,12 and, there is no consciousness in the grave; much less of torment in hell fire. Only in a parable as Jesus used to teach that the best way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
Absolutely not! There is nothing eternal about man but death if you read Psalms 49:11,12 and, there is no consciousness in the grave; much less of torment in hell fire. Only in a parable as Jesus used to teach that the best way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Assumptions of 'eternal'......
Assumptions of 'eternal'......
The English word 'eternal' does not connote a true meaning to the Greek word 'aion' which indicates an 'age', dispensation or indefinite period of time, therefore the English translation of 'eternal' or 'everlasting' imposing the idea of 'never ending' does not always pertain when using 'aion' or its adjectival forms unless qualified.
See 'Stop the insanity' (all pertinent links for your own research)
Also:
Assumptions of 'eternal'......
The English word 'eternal' does not connote a true meaning to the Greek word 'aion' which indicates an 'age', dispensation or indefinite period of time, therefore the English translation of 'eternal' or 'everlasting' imposing the idea of 'never ending' does not always pertain when using 'aion' or its adjectival forms unless qualified.
See 'Stop the insanity' (all pertinent links for your own research)
Also:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Choose life or death.........
Choose life or death.........
That God is sovereign is a given whether you're a Calvinist or not, but he's given man freedom of choice. That freedom of choice or 'free will' is sovereign as it pertains to an individual's destiny. If a soul puts itself by choice into a condition of disintegration, then by that iniquity wholly chosen, the consequence is a matter of law, which is death.
The fact of free will does not negate or discount the sovereignty of God, neither man's hope of eternal life, since all are given equal opportunity to choose in the ultimate sense...life or death. The gift of eternal life and immortality is offered/made available to man....none are deprived apart from their own choosing.
Choose life or death.........
That God is sovereign is a given whether you're a Calvinist or not, but he's given man freedom of choice. That freedom of choice or 'free will' is sovereign as it pertains to an individual's destiny. If a soul puts itself by choice into a condition of disintegration, then by that iniquity wholly chosen, the consequence is a matter of law, which is death.
The fact of free will does not negate or discount the sovereignty of God, neither man's hope of eternal life, since all are given equal opportunity to choose in the ultimate sense...life or death. The gift of eternal life and immortality is offered/made available to man....none are deprived apart from their own choosing.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
It's amazing how much one will invest in a 'parable'.....and assume it was an historical event
PrometeoPR
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The torch example applies to material things. The soul is in the spiritual realm thus it doesn't abide by the laws of physical nature. Key words are in revelation 20:10 "for ever and ever".
Cross Reference
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Try "everlasting" and see what you come up with. If that does work maybe try "Forever and forever".
Rosenritter
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No, you are mistaken. Jesus did not preface every parable with "this is a parable." There's two examples on preceding place in Luke 16 if you had a mind to read context, such as, Luke 16:1 "There was a certain rich man, which had a steward..." and Luke 15: 11 "A certain man had two sons..."
Luke 15:10-12 KJV
(10) Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
(11) And he said, A certain man had two sons:
(12) And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
First question: Are you trying to tell me that "The Parable of the Prodigal Son" is not a Parable?"
Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Second question: Did you miss that Mark 9 is quotation from Isaiah 66, and refers to physical destruction of corpses, not torment of living souls? Carcasses are dead people, not living and aware folk.
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Rosenritter
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You missed that souls die, that they can be destroyed by God, they can even be slain with the sword, it is a synonym for life. (Job 33:18, Psalm 22:20). The bible never says the soul is immortal or cannot die or cannot be destroyed, it says the complete opposite.
You missed that there are people who would much rather live separated from God.
And to answer your question, will the angels that are cast into hell with the devil ever die? If you mean "wicked angels" thus "devils" then Justin Martyr certainly thought so. See his Second Apology to the Greeks, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0127.htm
"Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature."
How come, you ask? Because it's prophesied and spelled out for us already in scripture. See Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. We know the ultimate end of that covering cherub that was in Eden, and regardless of the path taken through that fire, the end result is death and destruction, ashes and nothingness of being.
Ezekiel 28:14-19 KJV
(14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(16) By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(17) Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
(18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Why mention hell at all, you ask? It's the opposite of life. Jesus offered life eternal, the opposite is destruction in hell. Life vs. death. When God destroys the body and soul permanently, it is destroyed in hell. The dead are "in hell" because that's simply what the word means. As for the rest, you really need to prove that "the soul cannot die" before you continue on that path of reasoning. Scripture says the soul does die.
Rosenritter
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Is it just coincidence that he calls Abraham "father" and has five brothers, and has the law and the prophets, wears purple and fine linen? Are you inclined to believe that Jesus mentioned all these things without meaning?
Rosenritter
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When conversational English uses words that aren't in the bible to begin with that isn't exactly a solution. "Effective calling" for example.
Rosenritter
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Two thoughts. First of all, God did not make souls and put them in human flesh. It says that he made human flesh and breathed in spirit, and that resulting combination formed a human soul. See Genesis 2:7, man is not a creature that can consist of a soul without a body.
Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Second of all, were you aware that of their differing opinions, King James, John Calvin, and Martin Luther all were able to agree that the "ghost of Samuel" (that you reference, 1 Samuel 28:12) was a demonic apparition? They each had their separate reasons. King James said that the dead were plainly dead until the resurrection and that devils were known to lie and appear as angels of light, John Calvin said it was inconceivable that God would allow a witch to disturb the saints. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_of_Endor for Martin Luther and Calvin, read The Daemonologie for the reasoning of King James http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/kjd/
Question for you: when someone attempts to use necromancy to summon spirits of the departed, and you get something that comes back and claims to be it, for what reason would you assume this apparition to be telling the truth?
Rosenritter
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What would be the point of offering eternal life if we were already immortal? Why would Jesus say that without it we would perish if we would really continue on and on?
John 3:16 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Rosenritter
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Didn't we already cover this, proving that kings (other than the kings of the Medes and Persians) CAN and HAVE cancelled their own decrees, including God?
And second, the angels can be destroyed, specifically Satan. It is written.
