Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

T

Timotheos

New member
way 2 go said:
they are not.

Luk 16:24-31
Jesus tells the Pharisees about Abraham, Lazarus
and the rich man and Jesus reveals
already known truths such as
consciousness of the departed,
fire for the unrepentant to stand in,
a protected place with Abraham right next to the unpleasant place,
and he caps it off with
the place of torment is historical
made known to people by
Moses and the Prophets
and if you do not believe them
you will not believe one rising from the dead.

do you believe Jesus ?
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I believe Jesus and I reject your change of what Jesus taught.

I'll ask you the same question. Matthew 10:28 says to fear the one that can destroy both body and soul.
Do you believe Jesus that the bodies and souls of the wicked will be destroyed?
Do you believe Jesus? Why do you think Jesus got that wrong?
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
"Death", "Perish" and "Destroy" = separation from God, separation being the summation of the meaning of each word. Nothing more is needed to explain the severity of each when understanding the severity of what separation from God entails when considering the physical part of man.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV)

Another re-read of the story of the rich man and Lazurus might be in order, eh? Where did the rich man go when he died his physical death and was he not cognizant of his surroundings?
 
chrysostom

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Cross Reference said:
"Death", "Perish" and "Destroy" = separation from God, separation being the summation of the meaning of each word. Nothing more is needed to explain the severity of each when understanding the severity of what separation from God entails when considering the physical part of man.
Click to expand...

how do you separate yourself from God?
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
chrysostom said:
how do you separate yourself from God?
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By presenting your own works for salvation before God.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" (Matthew 7:21-23)
 
lifeisgood

lifeisgood

New member
chrysostom said:
do you think it is possible to separate yourself from God?
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Yes.

The believer who is guilt-ridden and conscience-stricken because of sin, rather than seeking fellowship with God, will shy away from Him just as Adam and Eve did. After their sin, they ran, NOT to Him, but FROM Him—they hid from God (Genesis 3:8-10).

There are examples of believers today who have sinned and instead of running TOWARD God and ask Him for forgiveness and help, have become Catholics, gone to a psychological program of x months/years, etc., etc., etc.
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
lifeisgood said:
Yes.

The believer who is guilt-ridden and conscience-stricken because of sin, rather than seeking fellowship with God, will shy away from Him just as Adam and Eve did. After their sin, they ran, NOT to Him, but FROM Him—they hid from God (Genesis 3:8-10).

There are examples of believers today who have sinned and instead of running TOWARD God and ask Him for forgiveness and help, have become Catholics, gone to a psychological program of x months/years, etc., etc., etc.
Click to expand...

I guess that is what David did.
 
chrysostom

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
lifeisgood said:
Yes.

The believer who is guilt-ridden and conscience-stricken because of sin, rather than seeking fellowship with God, will shy away from Him just as Adam and Eve did. After their sin, they ran, NOT to Him, but FROM Him—they hid from God (Genesis 3:8-10).

There are examples of believers today who have sinned and instead of running TOWARD God and ask Him for forgiveness and help, have become Catholics, gone to a psychological program of x months/years, etc., etc., etc.
Click to expand...

where can you go and be sure you are separated from God?
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Do not I fill heaven and earth?

Do not I fill heaven and earth?

chrysostom said:
how do you separate yourself from God?
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One cannot be separated from the omnipresence of Spirit :)

One cannot go outside or hide from the presence of God, unless you assume God is not omnipresent. What is being speculated and assumed is that an individual by some distortion, corruption or 'sin' within his own soul can somehow disconnect him from the presence or consciousness of God. Otherwise, it is impossible to ever be separate from The Infinite ONE, unless somehow an individual is disintegrated as a conscious personality (perished, destroyed, annihilated, terminated, etc.)

The rest is theological gymnastics :juggle:
 
T

Timotheos

New member
Cross Reference said:
"Death", "Perish" and "Destroy" = separation from God, separation being the summation of the meaning of each word. Nothing more is needed to explain the severity of each when understanding the severity of what separation from God entails when considering the physical part of man.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Revelation 20:5-6 (KJV)

Another re-read of the story of the rich man and Lazurus might be in order, eh? Where did the rich man go when he died his physical death and was he not cognizant of his surroundings?
Click to expand...

It is simply not true that death/destruction = separation from God.
So my question remains, do you believe what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 or do you think that sinners will be tormented alive in hell?
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Seperation and Integration :)

Seperation and Integration :)

Timotheos said:
It is simply not true that death/destruction = separation from God.
So my question remains, do you believe what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 or do you think that sinners will be tormented alive in hell?
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Hi Tim :)

If I may add,....we've been over this contention over the meaning or definition of 'death',....whether it be a total disintegration of the living soul which is a termination of conscious existence, or if this merely term merely means a 'state' of being 'seperate' from God, but the soul still being 'conscious' of its condition of torment and suffering. If we want to get 'technical' there does appear to be more passage evidence for 'conditional immortality' and a 'destruction' of souls, a total 'perishing', which means these souls are no longer consciously alive or existing. Thus I use the term 'disintegration' which includes a break-down and termination of the soul itself, where it ceases to exist as a conscious living personality.

Besides my own thoughts on ECT here, this resource here provides a pretty convincing argument for 'conditional immortality'.

Beyond this, there are other schools of thought, but the scope here is trying to determine what is 'biblical', which as I've shared is somewhat arbitrary, since everyone has their own 'translation' or 'interpretation', so you have a full spectrum of 'exegesis' and 'eisegesis' :)

I'm still exploring this field and haven't really chosen to accept any particular view as 'true', since there are various aspects of the human soul or personality that have both 'mortal' and 'immortal' aspects (or at least potentials), so still exploring :surf:
 
Cross Reference

Cross Reference

New member
freelight said:
Hi Tim :)

If I may add,....we've been over this contention over the meaning or definition of 'death',....whether it be a total disintegration of the living soul which is a termination of conscious existence,
Click to expand...


The death of the physical body is the termination of conscience existence, not the soul, with the spirit which tied them together, returning to God. Resurrection reunite them.
 
freelight

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
concepts of 'seperation'......reviewed

concepts of 'seperation'......reviewed

patrick jane said:
You can go to hell - that's separation
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That's quite a leap, since the various words in the Bible translated into the English word 'hell' (that would be 'sheol', 'hades', 'gehenna' or 'tartaroo') do not necessarily include an 'idea' of 'seperation'. The concept of 'hell' is only assumed be some to be some kind of 'seperation' from 'God'. Lets note that both 'sheol' and 'hades' refer to the grave or underworld where the dead go, 'gehenna' refers to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, a valley where trash and dead bodies were burned, and 'tartaroo' is a place where fallen angels are chained or detained awaiting judgment.

Remember we covered,....is 'God' omnipresent? Can you be 'seperate' from what is omnipresent, ever? So, its a matter of how we are defining 'seperation', and this might just be a 'distorted' assumption or illusion our own mind is assuming,.....all the while 'God' who is Infinite Spirit, is all-pervading, all en-compassing. Remember David's psalm,...."where shall I go from you presence?" and in another place 'God' says "do not I fill heaven and earth?" - We might want to reconsider what 'omnipresent' means again. Is there anywhere you can go outside of God, outside of the consciousness of God? :)
 
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