Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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IMJerusha
New member
Interesting, Sister, I was going to ask him the same question or something along the lines of why he fears the darkness if he has the Light.
Okay, you can ask me! :chuckle:
Just trying to make the world a little better, you know, shine a light (Need2breathe)
Here's what I told her, I guess you missed it:
Tim said:
And I have backed up what I have said with scripture.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Day and night ceases when all of the wicked are burnt up together with the old earth after the last judgment.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The Lamb is present before the thousand years to pour out wrath upon the worshippers of the beast--
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
There is much to complete the picture.
LA
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Day and night ceases when all of the wicked are burnt up together with the old earth after the last judgment.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The Lamb is present before the thousand years to pour out wrath upon the worshippers of the beast--
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
There is much to complete the picture.
LA
IMJerusha
New member
Yeah I did miss that! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. This is like one loooong thread!
So you feel that you are shining a light onto a false understanding of Scripture. Well, that's rational. I see you don't feel you can trust Revelation 14:9 as a proof text in support of ECT. Okay, that's rational as well. I don't mean to sound patronizing. I tend to type as I think. Can you go back to Luke Chapter 16 and the account of Lazarus and the rich man. There doesn't seem to be any time constraint regarding the rich man's torment in hell. It appears he's stuck there for all eternity. Would that account not equate to supportive proof text in terms of Revelation 14:9? Jude 7 also seems to support ECT.
The question I really want to ask is if the differences within our understandings are all that important? I mean, you say you want to shine a light but just as with other understandings/doctrines, like OSAS for example, there is Scriptural support for both points of view. I haven't actually researched your side of it nor have I taken the time to read every post you've made here, but I will.
The doctrine of fetuses and babies all go to heaven, strengthens the hand of mothers to abort and kill.
LA
Well, I feel like it's important. If you believed that your best friend was the most wonderful person in the world and somebody claimed that he was cruel to animals, and you knew that he wasn't, wouldn't you stand up for him? And why can't we discuss this topic?
Jude 7 supports ECT? Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed, and they are the example of the coming judgment. Why do you think this supports ECT?
Do you think the children of the wicked will all be passed over to stand with the children of the righteous at the judgment of Mat.ch 25.
Yes you do.
1Ki 14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.
1Ki 14:11 Him that dieth of Jeroboam in the city shall the dogs eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat: for the LORD hath spoken it.
1Ki 14:12 Arise thou therefore, get thee to thine own house: and when thy feet enter into the city,the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him, and bury him: for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found some good thing toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
God spared the only good thing in the house of Jeroboam , from the terrors which would come upon them.
The children of the wicked will die at the last judgment unless their hearts are with the righteous.
LA
doloresistere
New member
Here is another doctrine I will part ways with my friends on. I really don't see eternal continuous, conscious torture inflicted by an outside source on people as biblical. I see the lazarus story as what went on in hades before Christ rose from the dead. Dives will face the second death in the lake of fire where his soul will be exterminated and all consciousness will end there.
IMJerusha
New member
I undergo no small amount of pain when I consider my best friends since I was five years old, both of whom are Jewish, one by faith and one by ethnicity. I love them dearly and I pray for them but I can't force them to believe. I can only love them.
Please don't misunderstand. I don't think it's wrong to discuss the topic. I think it's wrong to allow a topic to undermine what is right and good in the Body.
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire." That's why.
Doormat
New member
Since Sodom and Gomorrah are not still on fire burning, but were annihilated, it follows that "eternal fire" totally consumes what it destroys.
Okay, let's pledge to remain kind to one another, even if we disagree in this area. I'm still not seeing how Jude 7 supprts ECT. S & G were destroyed by the eternal fire, right? Their punishment was to be destroyed by eternal fire, and they were. They are not still burning. They are still destroyed. That's the example of the coming judgment. Destruction by eternal fire. It seems to me to be an open and shut case in favor of destruction rather than ECT.
What he said :chuckle:
IMJerusha
New member
Amen! You have my pledge in this endeavor, Brother!
Exactly.
He knows that. He's just trying really hard to skirt around it and avoid it.
It has already been shown to him that apollumi (verb form) and apolleia (noun form) in scripture, which are translated destroy, perish, lost, lose, die, etc., do not mean "cease to exist".
In fact, in ancient Greek literature even outside of scripture, these Greek words were not used to mean "cease to exist".
Homer, the ancient Greek poet that wrote the Iliad and the Odyseey used the words for the slain and the perished.
But these slain and perished ones still existed (and were still conscious) in Hades.
The word meaning at that time did not carry the modern connotation of annihilation, as in ceased to exist.
They carried the connotation of going from existing in one state of being to existing in another state of being, but not as "ceased to exist".
It would be wise to familiarize yourself with the actual use of the ancient words at the time they were used instead of trying to force a modern meaning to them just to satisfy your own agenda of what you perceive that God's divine justice ought to be.
And example would be:
2 Thessalonians 2 KJV
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Our modern use of the word "letteth/let" has the connotation of "allow/loosen".(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
But in the day it was written, it meant "restrain/retain".
So, to use our modern definition, instead of the definition of that time, would cause one to have a completely unbiblical understanding of the message of scripture.
IMJerusha
New member
But you are speaking of the physical. I am speaking of the spirits or souls and I think that is what I think Jude 7 refers to also.
Frankly my dear, I am not skirting around anything :chuckle:
I know destroy doesn't mean "cease to exist". But in all of your examples, it doesn't mean "continue to live". You are trying so hard to paint me as a heretic. You admit that apollumi means "destroy, perish, lost, lose, die", that 's what I'm saying. If someone continues to live, then he has not been destroyed. I never used the term "cease to exist". Of course the corpse of a person who has perished still exists. But they are not alive, they are not conscious.
If you look up the account in Genesis, it doesn't say anything about spirits being tormented by the flames. It is straightforward, they were destroyed and were not alive after they were destroyed. And this is the example of the coming judgment, according to Jude (and Peter).
It changes what Jude wrote to say "Sodom and Gemorrah were destroyed by the fire so we know that the lost will not be destroyed, but instead they will suffer eternal torment." That's the opposite of what Jude said. Unless you assume that Sodom and Gemorrah are in eternal conscious torment. But assuming that in order to prove that is called "begging the question."