Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

You slither around all scriptures given you, here is another one.
Mk.9.47
and if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out, it is better to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

You have not answered to anyone's satisfaction why in a parable such as Lazarus and Dives Christ would teach a falsehood to establish a truth.

I don't "slither".

I expect that the scriptures you use to prove your point actually say what you say they do. So far, they haven't. Since you accused me of "slithering" I'm not going to answer any more of your questions. If you want to have a decent discussion, ask a decent question.

I already addressed the Mark quotation. Feel free to review this thread for the answer.

And it is begging the question to say "Jesus lied in his parable". He wasn't lying, he was teaching the truth using a parable. The parable has nothing to do with whether there is eternal conscious torment in hell or not.

 

[Timotheos]

didn't say they couldn't be destroyed. Destruction does not necessarily mean annihilation.

de·stroy [dih-stroi]verb (used with object)

1. to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2. to put an end to; extinguish.
3. to kill; slay.
4. to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5. to defeat completely.

So, while it can mean that, it does not always mean that.

I'm not sure how the definition you gave supports your idea that destruction doesn't really mean destruction. Is it okay with you if I believe that destruction means destruction, since the dictionary definition definitely supports that meaning?

 

[Timotheos]

Hitler did not slaughter 5 million Jews, men women and children because he believed in eternal punishment.

Hitler believed in eternal conscious torment in hell, he said so in his autobiography, but that is not relevant to the discussion of whether ECT is biblical or not.

 

[not4sure]

Eternal conscious punishment?

 

[not4sure]

If I hit my head and am unconscious is that torment or even punishment?

 

[Timotheos]

If I hit my head and am unconscious is that torment or even punishment?

No, that might be self inflicted torment, but it is not punishment.
If the wages of sin is to heat yourself on the head with a hammer, then it would be punishment.

If I haven't repented of my sins and go to judgment day still owing the wages of sin, which is death, and I die the second death and I am dead forever is that punishment? Is that eternal? Yes and Yes.

I am still getting used to the label, "Eternal Conscious Punishment".
It will probably take me as long to get over saying "Eternal Conscious Torment" as it will take some of these people to get over saying "Soul Sleep". Of course I do not believe that dead people are sleeping. My own belief is that dead people are dead, not sleeping. OF course my Lord Jesus Christ is able to resurrect dead people to life again.

 

[Timotheos]

Το διαστημόπλοιο μου είναι γεμάτο με κοτόπουλα. Θα τα κάνω κοτομπουκιές με το σπαθί-λέηζερ.

My spaceship is full of chickens. I'll turn them into nuggets with my laser-saber!

I'm reading the NT in greek, but it looks like you know more greek than I do. Is this koine greek? My bible doesn't have the words διαστημόπλοιο and σπαθί-λέηζερ in it. I'm at a disadvantage, because I'm self-taught. My point in all of this was to point out that I'm not actually stupid as has been assumed by some people.

 

[Timotheos]

Happy Ash Wednesday!
Remember that you are dust, and to dust you will return.
Remember that Jesus Christ will also return and resurrect you to eternal life.

Oh happy day, happy day, You took my sins away!

 

[Timotheos]

Even chaff, when burned, leaves something behind.

Yes sir it does. It leaves ash behind. But ash is not living, ash is not conscious, so really this confirms what the Bible says, the wages of sin is death and the road is wide that leads to destruction.

And even in those statements Jesus calls the fire "unquenchable." Why?

Matthew 3:12

Luke 3:17

Why? Because the fire will not be quenched until the chaff is completely burned up. The greek word for burned up is katakausai and means "completely comsumed by fire".

But I suspect that you weren't asking me why so that I could tell you why. I think you were just trying to raise an objection to my POV. It's okay if you want to keep on believing in Eternal Conscious Punishment (as ash perhaps???). I'm just pointing out that the Bible doesn't actually teach this. God bless you today, Ash Wednesday.

 

[resurrected]

.... whether ECT is biblical or not.

Revelation 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

/thread

 

[Timotheos]

/thread

Thank you. Yes, the verse seems to literally say that.

Do you have any solid evidence outside of the Book of Revelation?
I'm not sure I want to build a doctrine based on just one verse, especially when it contradicts dozens of other clear verses in the Bible.

Thanks for making it bigger. Anything outside of the Apocalyptic Book of Revelation? John 3:16 perhaps?

Why didn't you enlarge this part of the verse: "for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

 

[resurrected]

Thank you. Yes, the verse seems to literally say that.

no "seems" about it


/thread

 

[Timotheos]

Sure, here's the short version. Google "Bema Seat" for more in depth study, which you obviously need.

http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html

Did you read the page you sent me to? Obviously you need to:

Other Christians believe that all three of these judgments speak of the same final judgment, not of three separate judgments. In other words, the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15 will be the time that believers and unbelievers alike are judged. Those whose names are found in the book of life will be judged for their deeds in order to determine the rewards they will receive or lose. Those whose names are not in the book of life will be judged according to their deeds to determine the degree of punishment they will receive in the lake of fire. Those who hold this view believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is another description of what takes place at the great white throne judgment. They point to the fact that the result of this judgment is the same as what is seen after the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. The sheep (believers) enter into eternal life, while the goats (unbelievers) are cast into “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46).​

Note: I believe in eternal punishment as in Matthew 25:46, I also agree that the wages of sin is death, so this eternal punishment is death, no eternal life. The lake of fire is the second death. There are no differing degrees of death.

 

[Timotheos]

no "seems" about it


/thread

Yes you are right.

Now can you confirm this teaching from another place in the Bible? I'm sure that you wouldn't want to have a doctrine based on just one verse from the Apocalyptic Book of Revelation.

One thing I've noticed about scripture is that important doctrines are repeated throughout scripture. It is possible to misunderstand one verse. When it is confirmed by other verses, then the position is strengthened. When one verse seems to contradict dozens of other verses, more study is required to determine why. Perhaps the one verse is written in a highly symbolic book, like the Apocalypse of John.

If you want a lot of proof for Eternal Conscious Punishment, you should checkout the Apocalypse of Peter. Of course, the early church tossed it out as unscriptural. But as an ECP follower, you might really like it.

I'm here to help, God Bless.

 

[resurrected]

Now can you confirm this teaching from another place in the Bible?

Don't have to.

You were asking if it was biblical.

I quoted the bible.


/thread

 

[Timotheos]

Don't have to.

You were asking if it was biblical.

I quoted the bible.


/thread

Okay, fair enough.
So I guess that's a no, then? You can't back this doctrine up in any of the other 65 books of the Bible? It's good that John had ink and parchment paper on the island then. Otherwise we might think that the wages of sin is death, and those who do not believe in the Son of God will perish.

Thanks for your input.
BTW, what does "/thread" mean?

 

[resurrected]

Okay, fair enough.
So I guess that's a no, then? You can't back this doctrine up?

Don't have to :idunno:

 

[Timotheos]

Don't have to :idunno:

Okay, you don't have to.


I'm going to take this advice:

XI. NEVER BASE A DOCTRINE ON ONE PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE.

No doctrine should be built on only one passage or verse of Scripture. Any true doctrine of God will be found in many places in the Bible. The Mormons base their doctrine of baptisms for the dead on only one verse in the Bible. (1 Cor. 15:29) No where else is the practice even mentioned. If you cannot find other places in the Bible that teach the doctrine this should alert you to a problem. If the supposed doctrine is only found in one place you should seek to find out why. In every case you will discover that what is being taught is not a doctrine. To arrive at the correct understanding of a teaching (doctrine) in Scripture you must study all related texts and then put them together. Until you do this, it is difficult to know that you have all the truth revealed on a particular subject.


It would be wrong to formulate a doctrine from the statements in a parable.​

Here is the source: http://bible-truth.org/Principles.htm

 

[chrysostom]

Tim,
don't be so hard on those who are not enlightened
for some reason they need to believe in hell
and
it is not our job to change their minds about it
but
I do appreciate your position on what the bible teaches
which
is the same as what reason and logic teaches

 

[Timotheos]

Tim,
don't be so hard on those who are not enlightened
for some reason they need to believe in hell
and
it is not our job to change their minds about it
but
I do appreciate your position on what the bible teaches
which
is the same as what reason and logic teaches

Ouch! Point received and taken.

I apologize for my harshness to others.
If I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.