I doesn't make a person any less in my eyes if they change their mind from one position to another after carefully considering persuasive evidence. Have you considered a possibility that perhaps you aren't using the right arguments or presenting the right evidence? I'll use the last post as an example.
so truth does not matter , good to know from the start
By the way, I wouldn't label someone as "obtuse." It's not an effective persuasive technique, and saying something like that actually says that you're not trying to persuade that person. If you're not actually trying to be persuasive, why should that person trust you?
I was leaning toward aggressive ignorance :idunno:
So from what you said so far, the question is "Is eternal conscious punishment true?" and the current key question this has boiled down to is the definition of death. So far you've defined death three ways: physically, spiritually, and as a location. But if I look at the examples you gave, Matthew 27:50 refers to Christ dying on the cross, and the other two examples (Matt 8:22 & Rev 20:14) both fall under the description of metaphor.
now to ignore those examples and come up with irrelevant examples
I'll illustrate by example. The movie "The Green Mile" is set in a prison on death row. One of the guards escorts a new prisoner in calling out "dead man walking" every few seconds. I wouldn't say that the prisoner was physically dead or spiritually dead, rather that the guard (Percy) was making use of metaphor. The prisoner was doomed to die, thus he was a "dead man."
I agree but irrelevant example.
why not explain this one?
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
My point being that seeing that this is a common use of language the passage in Matthew 8:22 "Let the dead bury their dead" doesn't prove a concept of "spiritual death" - or at the least it doesn't distinguish it from metaphor.
the
dead in "Let the
dead bury" are what , physically dead?
that's what Timotheos believes.
The same would follow for the lake of fire in Revelation -
:think:
no comment
if I were in a war and said "that place is death" it would be easily understood that I was using metaphor (regardless of the troops education or lack thereof.)
that would be a place where people would be literally dying right.
An even more common example would be the schoolyard threat "You're dead" - whether actual murder is meant or simply harm, the usage is metaphorical, and isn't meant to imply a metaphysical meaning.
context :duh:
how were these people dead , physically ?
Eph 2:1 And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,
So to attempt to persuade Timotheos that the bible speaks of more than one death, you would need examples where scripture either defines that clearly or uses the term where it cannot be explained in any other way.
have you read this thread at all ?
Revelation 20:14 does say "this is the second death" but that would seem to imply sequential deaths (1st, 2nd) as opposed to different types of death with different meanings and/or effects.
death here is a place
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
It might seem that I'm playing Devil's Advocate here but perhaps that's what we need. Before giving up and calling others obtuse maybe it's because we haven't been persuasive enough by putting ourselves in their shoes first. Put yourself in his position: you'd want something concrete and unambiguous.
did everyone believe Jesus was the Christ after he performed miracles :nono:
Luk 17:17 And answering, Jesus said, Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine?
“A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still”
I would love to see some sort of resolution. To that end I would be glad to lend what little assistance that I may.
have an opinion and be able to back it up
