Hell isnt eternal torment, hell isnt eternal, and will be cast itself into the lake of fire, the word hell comes from is sheol and means the grave.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Hell isnt eternal torment, hell isnt eternal, and will be cast itself into the lake of fire, the word hell comes from is sheol and means the grave.
are you agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me?
Disagreeing. You are arguing against what scripture says.
Matthew 25:46 Jesus states: "And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. The same Greek term, aionion (eternal), is used to describe both punishment and life.
There is NO reason to believe one is not eternal while the other one is, when the same word is used for BOTH.
Revelation 14:11 reads in part: "And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night."
There is NO reason to believe one is not eternal while the other one is, when the same word is used for BOTH.
Revelation 14:11 reads in part: "And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever, and those who worship the beast and his image will have no rest day or night."
Aimiel
Well-known member
Actually, Hell is a spirit as is Death and they will also be tormented in the Lake of Fire for eternity, along with all the other wicked.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Obviously Death and Hell are two of Satan's angels.
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Do you do any reading of your Bible or not?
Do you have scripture that specifically calls hell and death angels?
No, I'm not. Everything I've said has been backed up by scripture.
The reason I asked is that you said this:
Usually once a person understands that Hell isn't eternal torment, hell will be cast into the lake of fire, and the Hebrew word that is mistranslated "Hell" is sheol which means the grave, they accept the truth that sin causes death, and forgiveness of sins by Jesus Christ is what give us eternal life. Then then fog lifts and they understand that the cartoon version of hell we've been forcefed is not true.
It seemed like you were agreeing with me. Evidentally, you believe that I've gotten some scripture wrong. Explain. Was God in error when He told Adam and Eve that they would die as a result of their sin?
I've read that before. He gets it wrong from hte first sentence. "Death is separation". No, the Bible never once says that death is separation.
Not playing. Again break down the verse in revelation and the one in matthew where Christ says eternal punishment and where it says no rest day or night.
Still waiting and not getting sidetracked by your inability to deal with those 2 verses.
You need to break them down and explain why they dont mean what they say.
Yes, evidentally you do not, and prefer fairy tales to actual Bible study. And why on earth would you quote the verse that says "the lake of fire is the second death" to try to prove to me that the lake of fire is NOT the second death? Was that just a mistake? Did you attempt to quote some other verse and the verse that supports my position popped out by accident? Clumsy.
Yes, it does need to be dealt with.
Revelation 14 KJV
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
It can be substantiated by other verses throughout scripture that their torment will continue.
There was a place prepared for blessing and rest of the righteous.
Matthew 25 KJV
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the righteous), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the righteous), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Unfaithful humans will join them.
Matthew 25 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the wicked), Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(46) And these (the wicked) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the wicked), Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(46) And these (the wicked) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 8 KJV
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
(29) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
The beast and false prophet are sent to that place.
This happen before the 1000 years Satan is bound.
Revelation 19 KJV
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
(20) And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelation 20 KJV
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And we have this:
Matthew 10 KJV
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
It is actually two words combined (valley/gorge & Hinnom) --- Valley of Hinnom.
The valley of Hinnom was the Hebrew name of a valley near Jerusalem in the OT where a wicked king practiced child sacrifice and erected idols of pagan gods (2 CH 28:3).
For this reason, it was considered an unclean place of the accursed.
For such a place, it was used as a dump to discard trash.
Jesus uses this same word several times to provide a stunning visual of the place of "trash" (ie. unfaithful) being continually burned.
A fitting visual description that they people could associate with, for Gehenna was known as a place that continually burned because it was never without trash there.
- Matthew 5 KJV
(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
- Matthew 5 KJV
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
- Matthew 18 KJV
(8) Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(9) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
- Matthew 23 KJV
(15) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
- Matthew 23 KJV
(33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
- Mark 9 KJV
(43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
(48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Which also takes us to the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
Luke 16 KJV
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
There will never come a time in this place when the wicked are not being tormented by the flame, the flame that will not be quenched.
Nowhere in scripture is it ever said that this flame will be quenched and that there will come a time when there will no longer be anything existing there to burn.
The flame that torments will exist forever.
Excellent post Tambora.
Are you serious? Do you mean Matthew 25:46? And Revelation 14:11?
I don't intend to make them say what they don't say. But if I can, I hope to show you how they don't say what you claim they say.
And I've have already dealt with the Revelation passage. You just didn't like my answer. I said this refers to the lake of fire, and as the Bible clearly says that the lake of fire is the second death, it is obvious that this is Revelation's language referring to their destruction. "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
The words "the smoke of their torment rises forever" should have reminded you of Genesis 19:28, the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah. Now, I know that you are hung up on the word "torment", but you don't nneed to be. The greek word used here is βασανισμοῦ and is a form of the word βασανισμός which means "testing" or "trial". We know that Jesus judges everyone at his second coming and the result of this judging, testing, trial, is the destruction of the wicked. So the smoke of this destruction rises forever. This indicates complete destruction. This language is often used in the OT to indicate complete destruction. But I know that you will not accept this explanation, because it disagrees with the doctrine that you are determined to hold on to.
Concerning Matthew 25:26
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life
Why do you assume that the eternal punishment is eternal torment, and why do you assume that the eternal punishment can't possibly be eternal destruction? Destruction is a punishment, and it certainly is eternal. It lasts forever. Besides, can't you see that the other group goes to eternal life? Do you think that both groups go to eternal life, one in bliss and the other in torment? If so, why would Jesus say that only one of these groups goes to eternal life? Your interpretation of this verse causes problems to it. Also, the greek word for punishment in Matthew 25:46 is κόλασιν, and it comes from the word κολάζω, which means to prune back, or cut off. Once you understand this, the verse makes perfect sense, and there is no need to say that it doesn't mean exactly what it says. One group goes to eternal life, and the other group is eternally cut off from eternal life.
But I know that you will not accept this explanation either, because you are committed to the doctrine of eternal conscious torment and you will not accept any evidence that contradicts the doctrine you are determined to believe.
Right, cut off, from Life in Christ, spiritual death for eternity, separation from God for eternity, where there is no rest day or night.
How can something that been destroyed completely, have rest or unrest?
Hint: they cant, it means they are aware, and being unable to stop being aware.
How can something that been destroyed completely, have rest or unrest?
Hint: they cant, it means they are aware, and being unable to stop being aware.
Really Tambora?
You are going here?
Mark 9 KJV
(
The passage you quoted from Mark refers to a passage in Isaiah. I'm very surprised that you didn't know this. If you had, you would never have brought up this passage, because it supports the case for Conditional Immortality so well. Here's the passage from Isaiah, it is easy to find, it's the last chapter.
Isaiah 66:14-24
When you see this, your heart will rejoice
and you will flourish like grass;
the hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants,
but his fury will be shown to his foes.
See, the Lord is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For with fire and with his sword
the Lord will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the Lord.
“Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst ofa those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the Lord.
“And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.
“I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyansc and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.
“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
As you can plainly see, the reference to fire and worms refers the dead bodies of God's enemies who are slain. The worms eat the dead bodies, and the fire burns dead bodies. The worms do not torment living people, and the fire isn't tormenting living people.
Since this passage plainly shows the coming judgment, and it plainly shows that God's enemies will be destroyed, and not tormented alive, this passage clearly proves Conditional Immortality / Annihilationism and clearly disproves Eternal Conscious Torment.
You are going here?
Mark 9 KJV
(
The passage you quoted from Mark refers to a passage in Isaiah. I'm very surprised that you didn't know this. If you had, you would never have brought up this passage, because it supports the case for Conditional Immortality so well. Here's the passage from Isaiah, it is easy to find, it's the last chapter.
Isaiah 66:14-24
When you see this, your heart will rejoice
and you will flourish like grass;
the hand of the Lord will be made known to his servants,
but his fury will be shown to his foes.
See, the Lord is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For with fire and with his sword
the Lord will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the Lord.
“Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following the one in the midst ofa those who eat the flesh of pigs and rats and other abominable things—they will meet their end together,” declares the Lord.
“And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory.
“I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations—to Tarshish, to the Libyansc and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to the Lord—on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says the Lord. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of the Lord in ceremonially clean vessels. And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says the Lord.
“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
As you can plainly see, the reference to fire and worms refers the dead bodies of God's enemies who are slain. The worms eat the dead bodies, and the fire burns dead bodies. The worms do not torment living people, and the fire isn't tormenting living people.
Since this passage plainly shows the coming judgment, and it plainly shows that God's enemies will be destroyed, and not tormented alive, this passage clearly proves Conditional Immortality / Annihilationism and clearly disproves Eternal Conscious Torment.
You seriously need to stop taking the figurative language of Revelation literally. Dead people are not conscious. The lake of fire is the second death.
That is your problem. The dead are conscious. They are very aware of what goes on around them or are you an annihilationist? Remember the "Parable " in Luke 16?
Physically Dead people cannot be said to have no rest day or night can they under your belief? I thought you believed them asleep.
See how you contradict your own beliefs?
Aimiel
Well-known member
I think it's obvious from Scripture. It only makes sense.